§ 71. Mr. LANSBURYasked the Minister of Health on what Act of Parliament he relies in fixing a maximum scale of relief, as a condition precedent to giving sanction to a loan asked for by the West Ham Board of Guardians and refused by the Goschen Committee because the board of guardians refused to assent to the scale of relief laid down for them to adopt?
§ 74. Mr. GROVESasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that, in connection with the relief of destitution within the Poor Law union of West Ham, conditions have been imposed from time to time by the Government Committee responsible for granting loans to this local area tantamount to the establishment of a scale of relief; and whether he will state under what Act of Parliament the Ministry obtains power to fix scales of Poor Law relief?
§ Sir K. WOODThe present situation is that the guardians have applied to my right hon. Friend for a further loan from funds for which he is responsible to Parliament, and that he has asked the guardians to make such alterations in their administration as seem to him required to enable him to satisfy Parliament that the loan, if made, will be properly spent. No Act of Parliament is required for this purpose.
§ Mr. LANSBURYIs the hon. Gentleman aware that last Wednesday a statement was made in this House that the granting of outdoor relief in individual cases was a matter for the discretion of the board of guardians, after a consideration of the circumstances of the particular case, and that the Minister had no power to intervene. How then can the right hon. Gentleman have the power to intervene and fix a scale and the conditions the hon. Gentleman has just mentioned?
§ Sir K. WOODBoth answers are perfectly correct. What has happened in this case is that the guardians are asking 2015 for a loan, and my right hon. Friend is asking for conditions to be observed when he lends the money to the guardians.
§ Mr. LANSBURYCan the Minister refuse to give a loan by insisting upon conditions that he legally has no right to insist upon, as the right hon. Gentleman himself told the House last week?
§ Sir K. WOODA Minister has a perfect right, when he lends money, to impose proper conditions as to the use of it.
§ Mr. W. THORNEIs the hon. Gentleman aware of the fact, and can he state reasons why the Department should take advantage of West Ham to impose conditions which are not being imposed in other parts of the country?
§ Sir K. WOODThe answer to that is that West Ham has had conditions imposed. As the hon. Member knows, the relief granted there is very much in excess of that granted elsewhere.
§ Mr. MACKINDERDoes not the right hon. Gentleman seek to impose a maximum of 45s.? Is he aware that in some of the guardians' districts in this country I know of they are paying 70s.?
§ Sir K. WOODAll I can answer to that is this, that in certain cases in this district the relief that has been given is in excess of the amount of wages which have been paid in the same district for unskilled labour for a full day's work.
§ Mr. MACKINDERShame!
§ Mr. LANSBURYIs the hon. Gentleman not aware that last week he told the House that the question of whether the relief was too much was entirely a matter for the district auditor? Is he not aware that his Department is now taking the responsibility of saying what, in the individual case, is necessary for public assistance?
§ Mr. BARNESAre we now to take it that it is the policy of the Department of the hon. Gentleman to base permission in this matter, and the relief to be given, on the wages in the most sweated industries of the district?