§
Motion made, and Question put,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1920, for the Salaries and Expenses of the "Department of Agriculture and other Industries and Technical Instruction for Ireland, and of the services administered by that Department, including sundry Grants in Aid, and the Expenses of the Agricultural Wages Board for Ireland, and certain Special Services in connection with Food Production.
§ The Committee proceeded to a Division, and the Chairman stated that he thought the Ayes had it. On his decision being challenged it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed. He accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he, declared the Ayes had it.
§ Mr. HOGGEOn a point of Order. This is quite a new decision to me, and of course I do not for a moment wish to challenge what you have done, but are those who are in a minority not entitled, even after a display of passion in the Committee, to a Division in the Lobby? 1464 All I am asking is for an opinion on the matter, so that we may know.
§ The CHAIRMANIf the hon. Member will be good enough to read Standing Order No. 30, as amended a year ago, he will see that I was acting under that Order.
§ Mr. DEVLINMr Whitley, I should like to know if you cannot give some reason to the Committee, why, on a Vote that obviously would have included nearly one-quarter of the Members of the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "One-tenth,"] —you should have refused to allow a Division to be taken?
§ The CHAIRMANIf the hon. Member will read the Standing Order he will see that I am using my discretion according to the Standing Order of the House.
§ Captain REDMONDI rise on a point of Order, Mr. Whitley May I ask why you have chosen this particular Vote of those—[Interruption]—May I ask why when, on another Vote which was about to take place when you were in an equally good position to judge the numbers of hon. Members who said "Aye," and the numbers of those who said "No," you did not take a similar course to the 1465 course you have just taken in regard to an Irish Vote?
§ Colonel WEDGWOOD[Interruption]—I rise, Mr. Whitley, on a point of Order.
§ The CHAIRMANI think I have already replied to the point of Order. It is entirely within the discretion of the Chair under the Standing Order, and under that Standing Order I have acted.
§ Mr. HOGGEI wish to raise another point of Order. As I said before, I think we are all in this spirit, that we never challenge a decision of the Chair so long as we understand that decision. This is a new Standing Order, and I may say that, for hon. Members who have recently joined this House, as well as for some of the older Members, this is new to us as well as to them, and the point may as well be settled once and for all. I want to point out this: The Standing Order says
Mr. Speaker or the Chairman may, after the lapse of two minutes, if, in his opinion, the Division is unnecessarily claimed, take the Vote of the House or the Committee.The point I want to put is this: To keep this House sitting it is necessary to have 40 Members. When you asked us to stand up, as a matter of fact, all of us who had been voting were not in the House, as is usual when this House is taking a Division. The average Members do not all come into the House when the Question is put; many of them are in the Lobby. What I want respectfully to submit is this—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—so long, at any rate, as there are enough of us to constitute a House by ourselves we are entitled, on a matter of business such as financial Votes which have not been discussed, to record our decision against the decision of the Government.
§ The CHAIRMANI think the hon. Member has misunderstood, or misread, the Standing Order. If the hon. Member will read it again, he will see that the Standing Order says, "is unnecessarily claimed." I took the sense of the Committee accordingly to the Standing Order by asking one side and then the other to rise in their places, and then I declared the Division according to my view and the opinion of the Committee.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHOn a further point of Order. I beg to ask you, Sir, whether there is any precedent for acting as you have acted to-night. I wish also to ask whether this is the first time in the history 1466 of this Parliament that the principle has been established not only that vast sums of money may be voted without discussion, but, further, that vast sums of money may be voted without Members being allowed to record their votes against them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ten pounds!"] I respectfully ask whether there is any precedent for such action as you have taken to-night.?
§ The CHAIRMANThe Standing Order was only passed this time last year in its present form. This is the first occasion on which the necessity has arisen.
§ Mr. BRACEI wish to ask, Sir, is there any machinery under which we, a minority of this House, would be entitled to record, in some form or other, our protest against the Vote. Is there any machinery under which our names can be taken? It seems to me—
§ The CHAIRMANI must remind the hon. Member that the Standing Order is the act of the House. I am merely the servant of the House in acting on the Standing Order.
§ Mr. BRACEIn what way can we enter our protest against your ruling, Sir; because we feel that it is not quite doing justice to the minority in this House?
§ The CHAIRMANThere is a well known Rule that that can only be done by way of a Motion after due notice has been given.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHI wish to ask you now, Sir, whether you propose to continue that ruling with regard to all the millions that are to be voted to-night?
§ The CHAIRMANThis is not the time to ask me that. The hon. Member will see when the time comes. I have allowed a great deal of latitude.
§ Mr. HOLMESrose—
§ The CHAIRMANI have made it clear that I have listened to the points of Order within the limits which I think proper, and I cannot accept further points of Order challenging my decision in the matter.
§ Captain REDMONDI want to ask you, Sir—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]—whether your ruling to-night has the approval of the Leader of the I House, whether the Government approve 1467 or disapprove of the action you have taken?
§ The CHAIRMANI will answer that last point. It must be understood that I cannot allow further challenging of my decision.
§ Captain REDMONDWhat does the Leader of the House say?
§ The CHAIRMANI have not asked the Leader of the House. It is my duty to carry out the orders of the House.
§ Mr. DEVLINI do not want to question—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order"]—I have been in the House, all night when the Coalition Liberals were at the bar. I do not question your ruling, but I want your decision on this point. We are the representatives of the people—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—free and un-trammelled, without coupons. You are voting without discussion millions of public money here to-night. There are some of us here in the interests of our constituents. [HON. MEMBERS: "Which!" and "Not you!"]
§ The CHAIRMANMay I ask hon. Members to leave this matter to the Chair?
§ Mr. DEVLINI am sorry to intervene at all in the Debate, but the point I want cleared up is this: When the public come to know, as they must know, what we are voting on these questions of public expenditure—I want, to know what safeguard you offer to the constituencies as to the attitude which the Members of this House take upon these precise sums of money on which we are called to vote. By the process of putting the decision you have given it is obviously clear that our constituents cannot secure that information.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is doing what he said he would not do. He is arguing.
§ Mr. DEVLINI am not arguing. I simply suggest that if you call upon us to stand up there should be some record of the fact—some record of how we have recorded our vote on these vital matters.
§ The CHAIRMANIt was for that very reason that the Standing Order was amended by the House by hon. Members themselves. They must remember that I am simply carrying out the duties imposed upon me as best I can by the Standing Order. They must not throw upon me the onus of the Order of which I am the interpreter. I am doing my duty as best I can.
§ Mr. HAYDAYWhat becomes of the minority rights?
§ Mr. MacVEAGHIs there any precedent for refusing to allow a vote to be taken on a money vote? I want an answer to that question.
§ The CHAIRMANI have answered the hon. Member. This is the first time that the Standing Order, as amended, has been put in operation.
§ Mr. DEVLINI hope it is the last.