§ Order for consideration of Lords Amendments read.
§ Mr. A. WILLIAMSI desire to raise on this matter a question which I think is important and practically one of privilege.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSThat was the point I wanted to put.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
§ Sir D. MACLEANThe Amendments now in the hands of hon. Members obviously afford an opportunity for hon. Members on this side of the House to discharge their public duty at the necessary length. We are not, however, desirous of in any way unduly delaying the proceedings, notwithstanding the importance of the subject we were about to discuss. I make a suggestion to the Leader of the House with regard to the next Order, which is still within the compass of the House for discussion. Is it absolutely necessary to take that to-night, and can the right hon. Gentleman not meet us by postponing the Ministry of Mines Resolution to another date? As far as we are concerned, we recognise that there are Governmental difficulties, although he cannot expect us to sympathise with them to the fullest possible extent. We do recognise the facts of the situation, and it may be absolutely impossible to take that Orde. except after eleven o'clock at night. I 816 do ask the right hon. Gentleman to meet us in regard to the Order to which I have referred.
§ Mr. BONAR LAW (Leader of the House)I am much obliged to my right hon. Friend for the way in which he has put his question, and with what he said about discussion I quite agree. I gather from what he says now that there is not likely to be unnecessary discussion. As I explained this afternoon, our whole object in taking the Order referred to was to get the Coal Mines Bill in Committee. I have since had representations made to me that the miners' representatives will not be able to take part in the discussion on this occasion. I am willing to postpone it until Monday.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSThe point I desire to raise is that on Clause 5, Sub-section. (1)e (i) of this Bill, as it left this House, a pledge was given by the Minister in charge in these words:
I will undertake to say that something of that sort shall be inserted in another place.That is a perfectly definite pledge, and those words have not in fact been inserted. The Clause was one requiring that where the tenant was in the employment of the landlord and the dwelling-house let in consequence of the employment he would have to give up possession if he ceased to be in his employment. Objection was taken that that might lead to very serious hardship and even turmoil in certain cases, and I suggested that the words taken from Sub-section (4) should be added as followsAnd in the opinion of the Court greater hardship would be caused by refusing the order for possession than granting it.Notwithstanding the pledge to which I have referred those words have not been inserted, and I ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to what this House can do to protect itself.
Mr. SPEAKERThe Minister has not complete control of the other House, and all a Minister can do is to promise to do his best to secure an Amendment. The Minister proposes, and the other place disposes.
§ Captain W. BENNIt is quite clear that we have come to a new condition of things in which the Government have no 817 control at all, and they cannot give an effective guarantee that words will be inserted in another place. It is quite clear that a modification of our own procedure will become necessary. When a Minister is willing to accept an Amendment, it will not be sufficient to say he will propose it in another place because he has no means of carrying out that promise. We shall be bound, not from any discourtesy to the Minister but in our own interests, to see that the Amendment is inserted at the time and not wait for it to be done in another place.
Mr. SPEAKERBut the Minister also cannot guarantee that it will be inserted in this House. All he can do is to propose it.
§ The MINISTER of HEALTH (Dr. Addison)On this point may I explain that when the matter was discussed in this House on the Report stage, we had passed the point at which it would be possible to make the insertion asked for, and therefore it was not possible under our rules of procedure to put them in here. The Government did try to get the words inserted in another place, but unfortunately on the division were not successful. I did everything I could.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODIt is clear that the Government in another place did their best to get the words inserted. It is clear advantage ought not to be taken of men being locked out or on strike to evict them. We do not want to have strikes and lock-outs made far more bitter than they otherwise would be by evictions. But although very definite words to prevent that were proposed to be put in in another place, they were rejected by those who have no responsibility to the electors of the country Now we are asked to consider the Lords Amendments. There is one obvious way in which we can register our protest against the action of the other House, and that is by refusing to consider the Lords Amendments. We have now no means of putting these words in, and the only way to make our protest is to refuse to consider the Amendments from the other place, and thus give their lordships an opportunity to reconsider their position and to carry out the wishes not merely of the Government but also of the entire body of this House.
§ Mr. LAWSONI wish to point out that I moved an Amendment to this Bill, which 818 was accepted by practically everyone in the House except the right hon. Gentleman, and he only refused it on the ground that he thought that it was just a little too widely drawn. There were hon. Members representing the employing classes who requested me to hold to the Amendment I had moved, rather than adopt the words suggested by the right hon. Gentleman. I agreed, however, on the word of the right hon. Gentleman, to accept the insertion of those words in the other House. Now I find that this Amendment has been turned down and refused. I am certain that the matter will be one of considerable importance in the troublous times in which we live, and I was amazed to read that the people who were chiefly responsible for the refusal of this Amendment in the other House were Members of that House who represented great industrial undertakings. It leaves us in this position, that those of us who move Amendments in the future, which may be accepted in the very fine spirit in which this Amendment was accepted by hon. Members of all parties in this House, will have to stand or fall by our Amendments, rather than run the risk in the other House. That particular Amendment was met by the employers' representatives in this House in a spirit of generosity which was a credit to them, and which would have gone far to create an improved spirit in the industrial forces of this country when it got abroad. I wish to register my protest, but I desire to give those hon. Members credit for doing their best to get this Amendment included, and so to carry out their promise to this House.
§ Major Sir P. LLOYD-GREAMEI entirely agree with my hon. Friend that it was on the understanding that it would be inserted in another place that this Amendment was not pressed, and that that understanding received the general assent of this House. The general intention of this House was that this Amendment should be made in the Bill. If there had not been a need for haste in this matter, this House would have taken more time over it, and we should have been careful to frame words which would have met the point exactly which my hon. Friend moved. I agree that as it stood it was far too wide, but it was well conceived in its intention. We are, however, not yet all lawyers in this Assembly. and it was, perhaps, defective in its construction. We then did, as a 819 matter of business, what we are quite accustomed to do in this House, that is to say, we arrived at an honourable understanding that those who were capable of drafting this Amendment should give effect to our intention—no less and no more—and that the Bill should go through amended in that way. I daresay that was the avowed intention of 99 per cent. of the Members of this House, on whichever side they sat. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that difficult times are ahead of us. We are going to quarrel about plenty of things. I am going to quarrel with hon. Members opposite over their economic views in regard to several matters, which I think are outrageous. Let us, however, try to narrow down the points of conflict. And here is a case on which we can arrive at an agreement which will make for good will on both sides, and which will eliminate one of those cases which the bad employer, who is only a very small percentage of the employers of the country, can take advantage of in some industrial dispute. I am going to ask the Government to reconsider this question, and see if this matter cannot be put right. I know the urgency of this Bill, but it is not quite as urgent as some hon. Members appear to think. A long time ago, when the matter first came up, I asked the right hon. Gentleman (Dr. Addison) for an undertaking, which was very willingly given and widely circulated, that when the Bill went through, whatever the particular date was, it should be made retrospective, and should apply to every notice given since the March quarter day. It does not matter very much, therefore, whether this Bill receives the Royal Assent within the next five days or ten days. When it receives the Royal Assent all notices to quit given after 25th March last are going to be void, and people who receive such notices are going to be entitled to the protection which is accorded to them under this Act. Here we have a case where the general sense of the House of Commons was solidly in favour of the Amendment,
§ and I ask the Government to consider before they come to a decision whether they cannot have this thing made right. and cannot postpone for a few days the final decision on this matter, so that the decision of the House may be made good.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI entirely agree with the views which have been expressed by every speaker as to the undesirability of the course which has been taken in another place, but I do not think the remedy proposed by my hon. Friend is effective. There are other provisions in the Bill which make it necessary. I have been informed from the beginning that it should become law by 1st July at latest. I am glad, however, to say that I welcome the protest which has been made by the whole House, and I think it is a great mistake that this action has been taken. But I am informed, though it is not the formal opinion of the Law Officers, that no one would regard a strike as putting a man out of employment in a case of this kind, and that in fact it has never been done.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWHon. Members must take what I have said. It is not the formal opinion of the Law Officers but of an experienced draughtsman. At the same time I am assured that it would he a great mistake to endanger getting the Bill at the right time, and now that we have made our protest I hope the House will realise that it is better to go on.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSWill the Government give facilities for amending the Bill on this point? It can be done by a very short amending Bill brought in by the Government themselves.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWWhat I have said is itself a proof that if we find the evils which have been referred to happening, we should undertake to deal with it.
§ Question put. "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 136; Noes, 55.
821| Division No. 170.] | AYES. | [11.30 p.m. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. | Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H (Devizes) |
| Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James | Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Betterton, Henry B. |
| Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. | Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- | Billing, Noel Pemberton- |
| Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin | Barker, Major Robert H. | Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland |
| Bagley, Captain E. Ashton | Barnett, Major R. W. | Blair, Reginald |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Barnston, Major Harry | Blake, Sir Francis Douglas |
| Borwick, Major G. O. | Greenwood, William (Stockport) | Perring, William George |
| Breese, Major Charles E. | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Pollock, Sir Ernest M. |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Preston, W. R. |
| Bruton, Sir James | Haslam, Lewis | Purchase, H. G. |
| Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) | Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) | Raper, A. Baldwin |
| Butcher, Sir John George | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. |
| Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. | Herbert, Denis (Hertford, Watford) | Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) |
| Casey, T. W. | Hood, Joseph | Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) |
| Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) | Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) | Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward F. | Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) | Rogers, Sir Hallewell |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale | Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) | Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. |
| Cope, Major Wm. | Hunter-Weston, Lieut-Gen. Sir A. G. | Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Courthope, Major George L. | Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. | Seddon, J. A. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Jephcott, A. R. | Shaw, William T. (Forfar) |
| Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) | Jodrell, Neville Paul | Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) |
| Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) | Johnstone, Joseph | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvll) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. G. F. |
| Dawes, Commander | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Steel, Major S. Strang |
| Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry | Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) | Stevens, Marshall |
| Edge, Captain William | Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) | Sugden, W. H. |
| Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) | Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. | Lister, Sir R. Ashton | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Falcon, Captain Michael | Lorden, John William | Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) |
| Farquharson, Major A. C. | Lort-Williams, J. | Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. |
| Fell, Sir Arthur | Loseby, Captain C. E. | Watson, Captain John Bertrand |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. | Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) | Whitla, Sir William |
| Ford, Patrick Johnston | Marriott, John Arthur Ransome | Wigan, Brig.-Gen. John Tyson |
| Forestier-Walker, L. | Mitchell, William Lane | Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) |
| Forrest, Walter | Molson, Major John Elsdale | Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot | Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. | Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud |
| Fraser, Major Sir Keith | Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash | Wilson, Capt. A. S. (Holderness) |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Murchison, C. K. | Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) |
| Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. | Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh) | Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) |
| Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham | Murray, Major William (Dumfries) | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) |
| Gilbert, James Daniel | Neal, Arthur | Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) |
| Gilmour, | Lieut.-Colonel John | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry | Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Lord Edmund Talbot and Mr. |
| Green, Albert (Derby) | Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W. | Parker. |
| Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) | Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry | |
| NOES. | ||
| Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) | Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) | Royce, William Stapleton |
| Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Sexton, James |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Hartshorn, Vernon | Shaw, Thomas (Preston) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hayday, Arthur | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Brace, Rt. Hon. William | Hirst, G. H. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Briant, Frank | Jones, William Kennedy (Hornses) | Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) |
| Bromfield, William | Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. | Spencer, George A. |
| Cape, Thomas | Kiley, James D. | Swan, J. E. |
| Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) | Lawson, John J. | Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) |
| Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) | Lunn, William | Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) |
| Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) | Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Mills, John Edmund | Wedgwood, Colonel J. C. |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) | Morgan, Major D. Watts | White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) |
| Finney, Samuel | Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) |
| Glanville, Harold James | O'Grady, Captain James | Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough. E.) |
| Gould, James C. | Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) |
| Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) | Rattan, Peter Wilson | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | |
| Grundy, T. W. | Robertson, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Hogge and Mr. Tyson Wilson. |
§ Lords Amendment considered accordingly.