HC Deb 07 November 1919 vol 120 cc1897-904

Considered in Committee.

[Sir E. CORNWALL, Deputy-Chairman, in the Chair.]

The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir R. Home)

I beg to move, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of any Expenses incurred by the Minister of Labour in carrying out the provisions of any Act of the present cession to provide for the establishment of an Industrial Court and Courts of Inquiry in connection with Trade Disputes, and to continue for a limited period certain of the provisions of the Wages (Temporary Regulation) Act, 1918, including the expenses of the Industrial Court and of any Court of Inquiry.

Colonel GRETTON

I think the Committee have some reasons to complain of the course which the Government have taken. These Financial Resolutions are of great importance, especially in view of the present financial situation of the country. The Government have chosen to put down this Resolution on a Friday afternoon, which is a very unusual proceeding, and they have moreover fortified themselves with a Special Resolution of the House providing that this Financial Resolution is not to he interrupted by the operation of the Five o'Clock Rule. I think the House and the Committee have serious reasons to complain of this form of procedure, and evidently there is great eagerness to push this Resolution through. As to the merits of the Resolution, I recognise, and I think the Committee will recognise, that it is impossible for the Government to put forward any precise estimate. This is a leap in the dark. No doubt if this Bill becomes an Act the initial expenditure in putting it into operation will be small, but if the Act is a success, as its promoters hope and believe those expenses will increase, and any reasonable expenses under strict Treasury control as set forth in the explanatory Memorandum, will be well and rightly incurred if they save the country from industrial disputes and disastrous strikes. I do not think the House or the country will grudge any reasonable expenditure in providing machinery for this purpose, and moreover it is stated that the official staff will be small, and that the expenses will chiefly be incurred in the fees paid to the members of the Court on the occasions when they attend, and their travelling expenses. -Under these circumstances I do not propose to oppose this Resolution, but I must again express my great regret that the Government have re sorted to this very unusual and, as I think, unnecessary procedure.

Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON

I should like to support my hon. and gallant Friend in what he has just stated. I do not rise to oppose the Money Resolution or to say anything hostile to my right hon. Friend in charge of it, but I think it is wanting in respect to this House that the financial Paper explanatory of this Resolution was only placed in the Vote Office this afternoon at a quarter to three. The House well knows that nearly every Member of the House was here listening to a very great and important Debate. This Paper was placed in the Vote Office when everybody was in this Chamber; in fact, I do not suppose one out of 100 Members really thought that Paper was placed in the Vote Office. I do suggest if that kind of want of respect is shown by the Government to this House, they cannot expect other people outside this House to respect Parliament. I feel very strongly about this, and I do protest. Hon. Members will remember that on the occasion of the Housing Bill exactly the same thing was done. The Finance Paper explanatory of the Housing Bill was put into the Vote Office on the very afternoon we were asked to discuss it. It was a most complicated Paper, and nobody could understand it, and at that time the Leader of the House made a promise that this thing should not occur in the future, and that the financial Papers should be placed in the Vote Office in time for hon. Members to study them. I am very sorry this has happened. I think it shows a great want of respect for this House, and I hope the Government will not repeat it in the future.

Mr. MARRIOTT

I do not in the least desire to delay in any way the passing of this Resolution, and still less in any way to delay the passing of the Bill to which it refers, and which I heartily support, but I do desire to join in the protest made by my hon. Friends opposite against the procedure which the Government has seen fit to adopt in this matter. Not for the first time we have had to protest against the way in which these Financial Resolutions have been pushed through unobserved by the House or Committee. I have only just obtained from the Vote Office the Memorandum to which my hon. Friend opposite referred, and I have not even had time to read it, but I do observe with pleasure one paragraph which has caught my attention. I observe, as an act of grace— The possibility of inserting in the Act itself a fixed sum as a limit for expenditure has been considered. I am very glad indeed to hear that it has been considered, but the paragraph goes on— but it is not practicable to do this in a permanent Act such as the present, particularly having regard to the fact that, as public confidence in the Courts set up under the Act increases, the work thrown upon the Courts will become greater. I quite recognise the validity of that consideration. I am so far grateful to the promoters of the Bill that they have even considered the possibility of doing what they have decided they cannot do, but I must join with my hon. Friends opposite in making a very strong, though at the same time a very respectful, protest against the circumstances under which the House is asked to accept this Resolution.

Sir R. HORNE

I appreciate to the full the comments and criticisms which the hon. Members have made on the course which the Government has taken, and I do not feel in the slightest way inclined either to resent or resist these criticisms, for I must confess they are entirely justified. The course which the Government has taken is only taken under the extreme pressure of circumstances. I hope the Committee will realise the position in which we are with regard to this Bill. It must be passed by the 21st November, and what follows from that is that the Committee stage must be taken in this House on Monday. We cannot take the Committee stage in this House on Monday unless we pass the Financial Resolution to-day. Therefore, if we are really to make this protective measure at all in time, we have to take this course. I perfectly realised I was doing something for which I should have made apologies to the House, and I think the House will believe me that I shall never err on any other occasion on which it is possible for me to follow the proper rule.

In regard to the merits of the Clause as it stands, it deals with the expenditure which must necessarily be incurred if the Industrial Court is to be set up. The expenditure involved is in the payment of the salaries and expenses of the Courts. I did seriously consider, as the White Paper shows, the feasibility of putting a lump sum against the possible expenses. I would have followed that course if I had thought it practicable to state a sum of which I could be certain. It is impossible at the moment to make any real estimate, and I can only make a guess. When one starts guessing you perhaps inevitably are led to allow a wide margin, and that has a tendency to excessive expenditure. But we are under the control of the Treasury in this matter. We cannot pay the salaries without the consent of the Treasury. The House will have our annual estimate of costs. This year, I would say, we shall not find it necessary to bring forward any Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. T. WILSON

I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman cannot see his way to postpone this Financial Resolution. I fully recognise the point as to 21st November. But I suggest to him the desirability of postponing what is a controversial part of the Bill. If he could do this it would do a great deal to induce those most affected by the Bill to accept the measure. Meetings have been held of trade union and other delegates on the Bill and diverse opinion exists amongst those who have taken part in these conferences.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I am afraid we cannot go into that.

Mr. WILSON

If the Bill is to be considered on Monday, I fully recognise the right hon. Gentleman must have the Financial Resolution. We on this side are not going to vote against this Resolution, only I would appeal to him, if he possibly can do it, to postpone the consideration of it until Monday.

Mr. WILSON-FOX

The speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour was, I mink I can assure him, accepted gladly by the House. We appreciate the fact that he does not in any way wish to do anything contrary to the desire of the House. While I and others do not for a moment doubt that from the personal point of view I do not think anything said by the right hon. Gentleman really does absolve him from all blame. There is really nothing in, this White Paper. It fixes no limit. It cannot have required much consideration or time to draw it up. The Department surely could have prepared it earlier, so as to allow it to be placed in the Vote Office before this afternoon. The Government know full well that there are Members who, like myself, for the past two years have been doing their best, both inside and outside the House, to assist the Government in trying to bring about a better administration of the nation's finances, and in securing economy. In view of this, it is very disappointing and very disheartening to those Members who, like myself, have not only taken an interest in these matters in the House, but have sat on Select Committees on national expenditure where the work involved a very great deal of time and care, to find that the Government does not, as it should, go out of its way to make our task easier in trying if we can to bring about better conditions in regard to finance. That is all T have to say and I hope what I have said will not fall on deaf ears, and that the Government will be more considerate in these matters in the future.

Sir R. COOPER

I can quite appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's difficulties, and I am anxious that the Bill should be carried into law at the earliest possible date. I think, however, it is asking a great deal of the House, in the present temper of the country in regard to national expenditure, to ask for what is practically a blank cheque for a Department that will probably grow into a costly section of the Ministry of Labour. What I feel is that under these circumstances it is very desirable that the Government should assure the House that there will be an opportunity of criticising or reviewing the costs incurred under this Bill before the end of the financial year. I understand that before the 31st March next there will be no opportunity for this House to express its opinion upon any costs which will be incurred. Could the right hon. Gentleman state if we shall have an opportunity of discussing this matter before then?

Sir R. HORNE

The estimates which have already been put in for the expenditure of the Interim Arbitration Court will be sufficient to carry us to the end of the year so far as the Industrial Court is concerned, and I can give the House an assurance as to the economical management of the money which has been entrusted to us. There will be no necessity to put any other figure before the House as far as this year is concerned, and the Estimate for next year will come before the House in the usual way.

Sir R. COOPER

Then it is a fact that the House will have no opportunity of criticising this expenditure until the end of the financial year. Supposing hon. Members feel that the Ministry of Labour is spending this money too freely, we shall have no opportunity of expressing an opinion on it unless the right hon. Gentleman can give us some Vote under which the subject might be discussed?

Sir R. HORNE

It is true that there will be no opportunity of discussing the matter between now and the introduction of the new Estimate which will be put before Parliament. I would like to point out, however, that there was an Estimate in the original Bill of last year which carried us on until May of the present year. Then the Estimate for the current year was put before the House, and it was open to all the discussion which the Committee thought it wise to indulge in. At present we are spending that money, and our expenditure is going on with the amount we got from the House originally for the purpose of the Interim Court, and that will be sufficient to carry us on until the end of the current financial year. So far as the next financial year is concerned, the Estimates will be put before the House in the ordinary way, and then by comparing the new and the old Estimates the House will see what we are proposing to spend and hon. Members can criticise it. I think that will meet the desire of the Committee in every way.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.

It being after half-past Five of the clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3.

Adjourned at Twenty minutes before Six o'clock.