HC Deb 21 April 1914 vol 61 cc891-4

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Mr. JOHN WARD

There are one or two observations I wish to make with reference to this Bill, and I make no apology for doing so, considering the situation that presents itself, especially in one part of the country, relating to a subject which is dealt with in the Preamble of this Bill. The Preamble contains phrases which are taken from the Bill of Rights. The words are to the following effect:—

"Whereas the raising or keeping of a standing Army within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in time of peace, unless it be with the consent of Parliament, is against law."

I wish to draw attention to the fact that this Preamble—a provision enacted in former Army (Annual) Bills—is abrogated so far as one part of the United Kingdom is concerned.

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Gentleman will not be entitled to discuss that on the Second Reading of the Bill. That is a matter of administration, and the proper time to discuss it is when discussing the Army Estimates.

Mr. J. WARD

That is one of the most important parts of the subject with which I wish to deal this evening. [Laughter.] I can quite imagine the delight of hon. Gentlemen opposite to find that the discussion is out of order. Therefore, so far as that part of the case is concerned, I do not wish to proceed with my argument.

Lord ROBERT CECIL

Hear, hear.

Mr. J. WARD

The Noble Lord will see that it is impossible for me to do so. There is another phase of the subject to which I should like to call attention if it is possible to do so, and that is the necessity on this occasion of defining what it is they intend to do with the Army. I am not sure whether that also is a matter of administration, or whether we are entitled to discuss on the Second Reading of the Army (Annual) Bill for what reason we require an Army. I shall assume that we can discuss it until I am called to order.

Mr. SPEAKER

I am afraid that would not be in order either. The purpose of the Bill is to continue the Army Act of 1881. It is only an annual Act, and the only purpose of this Bill is to say that the Army Act of 1881 shall be continued for another year. The Army Act proposes military law in the Army, and that is the main point of this Bill. The Bill also contains certain Amendments of the Army Act of 1881. Those Amendments are set out in the Bill. If the hon. Member is not satisfied with those Amendments, or does not think them sufficient or proper, and wishes to introduce other Amendments, it will be open to him to suggest in Committee other Amendments of the Army Act of 1881, and they can be embodied in the Bill.

Mr. J. WARD

Then am I to understand that according to your ruling it is impossible to discuss the Army on the Second Reading of the Army (Annual) Bill?

Mr. SPEAKER

The general purposes and the policy which administers the general purposes of the Army could not be discussed on this Bill. That is a matter of administration which must be discussed upon a suitable Army Estimate. Whether it be the Army Council or any particular point which any hon. Member wishes to raise, it is a matter of administration. This simply continues to enact military law which governs the Army.

Mr. J. WARD

Would I be entitled under these circumstances to discuss the question whether we ought to have military law at all?

Lord ROBERT CECIL

Would not the hon. Gentleman be entitled to discuss the question whether this Act should apply to the troops under certain conditions: whether, for instance, our military law should apply to troops engaged in suppressing a riot or in dealing with a strike, or anything of that kind?

Mr. SPEAKER

If the hon. Member suggests that there should be an Army without discipline, of course, he would be entitled to move the rejection of the Bill, but the result of that would be that there would be an Army without any control or without any military law.

Mr. J. WARD

Am I entitled to move the following Resolution to put myself in order, namely, "That the existence of an armed forced in Ulster, drilled, officered, equipped, and publicly defended by right hon. and hon. Members of His Majesty's Opposition, is contrary to civil and military law, and this House declines to proceed with the Army (Annual) Bill until it has expressed by this Resolution its grave censure upon such of its Members as have been guilty of this act of treachery to the Crown."

Mr. SPEAKER

I do not think that would be relevant. It is a matter of administration. If any action has been taken which is contrary to the law, it is open to those who are in authority to take action.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Adjourned at Twenty-seven minutes after Eleven o'clock.