HC Deb 09 March 1911 vol 22 cc1681-708

(1) The sum to be paid in respect of the local taxation (Customs and Excise) Duties into the Local Taxation Account, and the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account, and the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account respectively, under Sub-section (2) of Section seventeen of the Finance Act, 1907, shall, in the current and every subsequent financial year, instead of being a sum equal to the amount which would have been paid as the proceeds of those duties if that Act had not passed, be a sum equal to the amount of the English, Scottish, and Irish shares respectively of the proceeds of those duties during the financial year ending the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and nine.

(2) There shall in addition be paid into each of the said Local Taxation Accounts during the current financial year out of the Consolidated Fund or the growing produce thereof, any amount by which the sum payable into that account in respect of the proceeds of the local taxation (Customs and Excise) Duties in the financial year ending the thirty-first day of March nineteen hundred and ten fell short of the sum which would have been so payable if this Act had been in force during that year, and any additional amount so paid into any Local Taxation Account shall be distributed and dealt with as if it were an addition to the sum paid into that account in respect of the local taxation (Customs and Excise) Duties.

Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

I think it would be useless to renew the appeals which my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition made earlier in the proceedings to the Government to keep their pledges. The time for that has gone by. Their pledges are broken. They have acted throughout this sitting in defiance of the word which they offered across the floor of the House, and which was accepted by their opponents. That is a painful thing under any circumstances, but it is a very bad thing for the House of Commons, which, as we all know, depends upon the honourable keeping of such pledges in the business transactions which must occur. An hon. and gallant Gentleman makes an observation. Does he desire me to quote again the words of the Prime Minister, of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and of the Chancellor of the Duchy? He was probably sleeping when I quoted them before.

Captain CRAIG

On a point of Order. If it is any assistance to you, Mr. Chairman, and you will say the word, I shall put the whole Nationalist party out of the House.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. and gallant Member has put to me a point of Order, but it would make this a spot of disorder.

Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman expects the Opposition to keep arrangements made across the floor of the House when the Government breaks such arrangements. We are coming very near another sitting in regard to which an arrangement was made. Do you expect the arrangement to be kept when you have broken your own? You will have only yourselves to blame if it is broken. It is because the House has sat now for seventeen and a half hours, and because we are coming very near the hour for another sitting, that I now beg leave to renew the Motion that you report Progress. It is quite intolerable that the House should be asked to discuss a measure of this importance under these conditions. The Home Secretary said earlier in the day that he would treat this Bill as the Bill of last Session. Does he know what the Bill of last Session was? I think there are not less than eight clauses in the Bill which did not appear in the Bill of last Session. One of my hon. Friends tells me, though I have been unable to get a copy of the Bill to make certain, that there were only five clauses in the Bill of last Session. And yet, on the pretence that this Bill was introduced last Session the Home Secretary considers that discussion is unnecessary now, and that the Bill can be rushed through in a single night. It is an outrage on Parliamentary procedure, a gross breach of faith—a breach of faith unparalleled in the long traditions of this House. As a protest on both grounds I propose, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

[The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Whitley) in the Chair.]

Mr. CHURCHILL

I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman has seen fit to repeat, in the broad light of day, the excited charges which were flung promiscuously and hastily across the floor of the House from various quarters in the small hours of the morning. As, however, the right hon. Gentleman has taken that course, I will, in the fewest possible sentences, say that we repudiate altogether the charge. We have not swerved or departed in any respect from the settled and fixed plan, or from the time-table on which the Government have been proceeding. It was the full expectation of the Prime Minister that we should make, not only the progress which we propose to make to-day, but that we should begin the discussion of the new clauses. What did the right hon. Gentleman say at question time? I have taken the utmost precaution in getting his exact words. He said: "In view of the very large number of new clauses—"

Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether that is the official report?

Mr. CHURCHILL

Hansard is not out yet. I have got this from the Central News. If afterwards it is proved to be inaccurate, then the arguments based on it will be subjected to certain revisions. This is what the Prime Minister said. This is the pledge: "In view of the very large number of new clauses put down, I hope the Committee will be prepared to sit a little later to-night." That is the clearest possible warning and indication that the Government intended to make substantial progress in the financial business they had in hand, and it was a warning couched as such warnings are in non-provocative terms that we should have to undergo and face the exertions of an all night sitting. But even if those words which I have read are held not accurately taken to foreshadow the couse whe have taken. I am certain I have only carried out the purpose and intention of the Prime Minister. That being so, how utterly absurd it is to suppose that they inhibit us from having taken this course. It is obvious and clear that the Prime Minister fully intended and contemplated our taking the course which we have taken to night, but he did not contemplate and could not foresee the great length of time which has been consumed on the discussion of the earlier clauses and on repeated motions for postponements. No one can say that this was not the settled plan on which the Government have been proceeding. It was fully in the intention of the Prime Minister, in calculating the time spent on this Bill already and the time left out of the six-and-a-half days which we all along stated would be allocated to the discussion of this measure—

Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

Nothing was said about six-and-a-half days when the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised us ample time for discussion.

Mr. CHURCHILL

Weeks ago the Government announced that six-and-a-half days was the time that they allocated. On 10th February, exactly a month ago, the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister said: "We have to prosecute the Bill through its various stages, and we propose to give for this purpose six-and-a-half days." That statement was accepted without the slightest challenge by anyone on that side of the House. When the right hon. Gentleman makes these charges I am bound to tell him that they leave us without any prick of conscience, and if they consider that they have a grievance because of the course which has been taken and in order to redress that grievance they depart from an undertaking they have made, and for which they have received value in the shape of extra time for discussion, I say that the complaint which we shall urge against them will be a complaint of greater body and substance than any which they can vociferate against us. I have been forced to address myself to that serious charge made with an extraordinary profusion of harsh language by various speakers on the other side of the House. Let me say one word on the Motion which the right hon. Gentleman has made, the Motion that we report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. Apart altogether from this particular wrangle about which the right hon. Gentleman has expressed himself in his most disagreeable form, the Debate especially in its later hours has been an exceedingly good Debate, and highly creditable to the House of Commons. I listened to a great deal of it, and my hon. Friends on this bench, who heard both the beginning and the latter part, tell me there is no doubt whatever that the discussion proceeding at five and six o'clock this morning was better than the discussion proceeding at five o'clock yesterday afternoon.

Earl WINTERTON

Then why did you closure it?

Mr. CHURCHILL

The progress made has been good, but not unreasonable. If we were to agree to the Motion to report Progress now we should spoil a good night's work I therefore must point out that the clauses which remain to be discussed are not matters in which any great questions of substance can arise, and unless the Committee were vexed and desired to assume a very combative attitude upon them I have no doubt that could easily and speedily be disposed of. At any rate, we are bound to continue. I have now the OFFICIAL REPORT put in my hands as to what the Prime Minister said. The Report runs as follows:— Mr. Balfour: There is no idea, of course, of the Committee stage finishing to-night? The Prime Minister: No, of course, in view of the very large number of Amendments and new Clauses, but I hope the Committee will be prepared to sit a little late; but there is no idea of finishing the Committee stage to-night. We have no chance or prospect of finishing to-night, and the greater part of our work still remains to be discharged. I regret very much to have to press such exertions upon the Committee, but I am sure everyone will agree that, having reached so far, we ought to arrive at a much more convenient stopping place.

Viscount CASTLEREAGH

The right hon. Gentleman's repudiation carried no weight whatever, especially as he read out the specific undertaking given by the Prime Minister yesterday afternoon. His bombastic utterances at 8.30 do not in the least excuse the gross error of judgment he committed at twelve o'clock last night. The right hon. Gentleman has apparently several conceptions of what a pledge means. If a pledge is made to a section of his followers behind him it means one thing, and is to be honourably discharged the next minute; but if it is made across the floor of the House and the right hon. Gentleman is assured by the Patronage Secretary that he has a majority at his back, that pledge means nothing whatsoever. The right hon. Gentleman will have little cause to look back to the first day in which he has led the House with feelings of pride, and if his eye is fixed on the place where he is now sitting, his chance of gaining that place is more remote than ever it was. If the right hon. Gentleman—and he has a section of the coalition with him—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I think we have had these speeches a good many times. I must request the Noble Lord to address himself to the present Motion, and find some new arguments in support of it.

Viscount CASTLEREAGH

I must bow to your ruling, Sir, but I was answering the speech which the right hon. Gentleman made. We have discussed this measure from four o'clock yesterday afternoon, and from the words of the Prime Minister, which the right hon. Gentleman read, it is obvious that he had no intention that we should sit here until this time.

MASTER of ELIBANK

I know the Prime Minister's mind on this matter, and he had every expectation that we should have an all-night sitting.

Earl WINTERTON

Why did he not say so?

Viscount CASTLEREAGH

I hardly think the Prime Minister would thank the Patronage Secretary for the definition he has been good enough to give of his words. It is true we have passed one of the most important Clauses of the Bill. We have been called upon to discuss a measure closely affecting the local authorities of the country at a time when the Press were absent—that portion of the community which usually appeals to the right hon. Gentleman who is now leading the House. They were absent when the most important part of the Debate was carried on. The right hon. Gentleman has himself said that the Debate was of a very high order, and yet no portion of that Debate—or, at any rate, no correct report of the Debate—will reach our constituents. In adopting this course the right hon. Gentleman is prostituting the traditions of this House. As a protest against the position which the right hon. Gentleman has taken up as Leader of the House—a position which he will never keep—I support the Motion.

Colonel WILLIAMS

I desire to remind the Home Secretary of what occurred a little earlier in the Session. He has used some very brave words about a pledge that was given. Not many weeks ago, when the Prime Minister was here, he was challenged as to the words of a pledge, and his reply followed the highest Parliamentary morality. He said it was not the pledge he intended to give, but if the Opposition understood it to be different he would certainly give way. That, Sir, was maintaining Parliamentary honour, and I commend the example to the Home Secretary.

Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND

I only intend to address myself, strictly in order, to one or two of the remarks that have fallen from the Home Secretary. In the first place it is not a question so much—

Earl WINTERTON

On a point of Order. May I call your attention to the continued disorderly interruptions by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent (Mr. J. Ward) and the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. MacVeagh). They have carried on in a manner to render all sensible Debate impossible. [Interruption] The Patronage Secretary is very much mistaken—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

Will the Noble Lord address the Chair?

Earl WINTERTON

Yes, I was about to. The Government having consented to be quiet for a moment, I will put my point of Order. I desire to ask you whether it is in order for the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent and the hon. Member for South Down to keep up a continuous fire of impertinent interruptions?

Mr. LEIF JONES

On a point of Order. Is the word "impertinent" in order?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

It is not an unparliamentary word.

Mr. WALTER REA

Has not the word impertinent been ruled to be an unparliamentary word during this current sitting?

Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

Was not the ruling of the Chairman to the effect that it was unparliamentary to call a Member of this House impertinent; but has not saying a statement was irrelevant or impertinent been repeatedly ruled in order?

Mr. CHURCHILL

It is not a fact that a distinction was drawn by the Chairman of Committees in regard to the sense in which the word impertinent might be used? That the sense of the word meaning rude was unparliamentary, but in the sense in which it was used by the Noble Lord was not unparliamentary.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I do not rule the expression as being out of order. I am sure the Noble Lord used it in its classical sense. As to the point of order raised by the Noble Lord, I would once more appeal to the House to leave to the Chair the power the House has reposed in the Chair, and which is not an easy one after all.

Mr. MacVEAGH

On the point of Order, as the Noble Lord drew my name into this matter, I may say that whether he used the word in a classical sense or not is a matter of indifference to me. Considering his record, I regard the abuse of the Noble Lord as the highest compliment.

Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND

The Home Secretary said that the plan of the Prime Minister had been understood by Members of the Opposition and that that was the reason— [Interruption.] I wonder if I may appeal to you, Mr. Whitley, for a little order. The Home Secretary stated that his reason for going on with the Debate last night and this morning was because the plan of the Prime Minister was well known on the Opposition benches. I do not say the right hon. Gentleman intended it to be so, but that was in flagrant contradiction of the actual facts. There is no question whatever that a large number of Members on these benches are genuinely interested in some of the financial questions—[Some interruption.] The hon. Member for Stoke again says "Hear, hear."

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I think the hon. Member is rather disregarding my ruling in reviving incidents which I hoped were done with.

Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND

I will endeavour to keep strictly to the point under discussion, but I hope you will help Members on this side of the House to be saved from interruptions.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

If the hon. Member will leave it to me I can assure him I will.

Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND

Thank you. The point was really this, that the following out of the plan as the Prime Minister intended was justified by the Home Secretary on the ground that it was understood by Members of the Opposition. Whether stated willingly or not, that is flagrantly in opposition to the actual facts. There are Members on this side who have a genuine interest in some of these questions of local finance who left the House on the genuine understanding that this Debate was not going to be prolonged beyond a comparatively early hour, and who, for that reason, have been debarred from taking any part in it. No one in this House would ever accuse the Prime Minister for a single second of ever withdrawing from any pledge he had given. The Prime Minister is always so fair, so far as the time of the House is concerned, that when his word has been misunderstood by this side of the House he has been willing to give way to the Opposition. I am sure that had the Prime Minister been here and understood that Members on this side of the House genuinely misunderstood the nature of the undertaking, he would have conceded to them their perfectly legitimate demand. Our quarrel with the Home Secretary is that although he has followed the letter of the Prime Minister's plan, at any rate he has grossly discredited its spirit by the manner in which he has treated this side of the House. The Home Secretary has stated that now the light of day has come in we might be led to consider facts apart from any exaggeration. May we ask the Home Secretary to carry out the same process in his own mind and consider the facts apart from any exaggeration. Did that mean till twelve or one o'clock or nine o'clock in the morning? The Home Secretary has said that the reason for refusing to report progress was the repeated postponements and delays in discussing the Clauses on this side of the House. May we remind him that had he shown something of the temper of the learned Solicitor-General earlier in the evening—I quite agree it is probably incapacity on the part of the Home Secretary to behave for one minute like the Solicitor-General did—but, at any rate, the difference in the effect and the amount of progress has been quite clear. The number of Clauses that were got through in a comparatively short time earlier in the sitting was out of all proportion to the progress made since. The rate of that progress and the character of the Debate has been due to nothing whatever but the way in which we have been treated by the gentleman who is now leading the House. He said he has refused to agree to report progress and continued to sit till morning because it was the settled policy of the Government. It is not the policy of the Government which should rule the present case; it is the promise of the Government to the Opposition. If there ever was a thoroughly bad handling of the finances of the country it has been the way in which it has been treated in this Revenue Bill during to-night. I do not know whether the Home Secretary thinks that by continuing the Debate he has afforded anything like a good example of what we are to expect from the new regime of

politics under his guidance, or of what we are to expect when this House, under the Parliament Bill, is to have absolutely uncontrolled finance, and we shall have a repetition of this ill-considered passing of important clauses.

Mr. CHURCHILL

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, that "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 194; Noes, 121.

Division No. 65.] AYES. [8.55 a.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Needham, Christopher T.
Acland, Francis Dyke Goldstone, Frank Neilson, Francis
Adamson, William Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Nolan, Joseph
Addison, Dr. Christopher Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Norman, Sir Henry
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) Gulland, John William O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Armitage, Robert Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Hackett, John O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool, Scotland)
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) O'Dowd, John
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) O'Grady, James
Barton, William Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) O'Kelly, Edward p. (Wicklow, W.)
Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry O'Malley, William
Bentham, George Jackson Haworth, Arthur A. O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Black, Arthur W. Hayden, John Patrick O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Booth, Frederick Handel Hayward, Evan O'Sullivan, Timothy
Bowerman, Charles W. Helme, Norval Watson Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Brace, William Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Parker, James (Halifax)
Brady, Patrick Joseph Henry, Sir Charles S. Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)
Brocklehurst, William B. Higham, John Sharp Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.
Brunner, John F. L. Hinds, John Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Burke, E. Haviland. Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Pirie, Duncan V.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hudson, Walter Pointer, Joseph
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hughes, Spencer Leigh Pollard, Sir George H.
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Illingworth, Percy H. Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Hey wood) Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel Power, Patrick Joseph
Chancellor, Henry George John, Edward Thomas Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Johnson, William Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Primrose, Hon. Nell James
Clancy, John Joseph Jones, Lei) Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Radford, George Heynes
Clough, William Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Raffan, Peter Wilson
Clynes, John R. Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney) Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry
Condon, Thomas Joseph Keating, Matthew Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Corbett, A. Cameron Kellaway, Frederick George Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Kilbride, Denis Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) King, Joseph (Somerset, N.) Richards, Thomas
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Lambert, George (Devon, Molton) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Dawes, James Arthur Law, Hugh A. Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Delany, William Lawsen, Sir W.(Cumb'rrnd., Cockerm'th) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)
Dewar, Sir J. A. Leach, Charles Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Dillon, John Levy, Sir Maurice Robinson, Sidney
Doris, William Lewis, John Herbert Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Duffy, William J. Lundon, Thomas Roe, Sir Thomas
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lynch, Arthur Alfred Rowlands, James
Edwards, Allen Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) St. Maur, Harold
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) MacGhee, Richard Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Scanlan, Thomas
Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of MacVeagh, Jeremiah Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Elverston, Harold M'Callum, John M. Seely, Col. Right Hon. J. E. B.
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Mason, David M. (Coventry) Sherwell, Arthur James
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Masterman, C. F. G. Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Essex, Richard Walter Mathias, Richard Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Falconer, James Meagher, Michael Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Farrell, James Patrick Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Summers, James Woolley
Fenwick, Charles Mond, Sir Alfred M. Sutton, John E.
Ferens, Thomas Robinson Money, L. G. Chiozza Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Ffrench, Peter Montagu, Hon. E. S. Tannant, Harold John
Field, William Mooney, John J. Toulmin, George
Fitzgibbon, John Morgan, George Hay Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Flavin, Michael Joseph Morrell, Philip Uro, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Gelder, Sir William Alfred Munro, Robert Verney, Sir Harry
Glanville, Harold James Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Wardle, George J. Williams, John (Glamorgan) Young, William (Perth, East)
Webb, H. Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Wedgwood, Josiah C. Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Dudley Ward and Mr. Soares.
White, Patrick (Meath, North) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Whyte, A. F. (Perth) Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
NOES.
Archer-Shee, Major Martin Gibbs, George Abraham Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Ashley, Wilfrid W. Gilmour, Captain John Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)
Astor, Waldorf Goldsmith, Frank Perkins, Walter Frank
Baird, John Lawrence Gordon, John Peto, Basil Edward
Balcarres, Lord Grant, James Augustus Pole-Carew, Sir R.
Baring, Captain Hon. Guy Victor Greene, Walter Raymond Pollock, Ernest Murray
Barnston, Harry Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward Pryce-Jones, Col. E.
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Rawson, Col. Richard H.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B, (Glouc. E.) Hambro, Angus Vaidemar Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Ronaldshay, Earl of
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Rothschild, Lionel de
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Hill-Wood, Samuel Royds, Edmund
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)
Bird, Alfred Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Salter, Arthur Clavell
Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith. Horne, William E. (Surrey, Guildford) Sanders, Robert Arthur
Boyton, James Hunter, Sir Chas. Rodk. (Bath) Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Bridgeman, William Clive Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Spear, John Ward
Bull, Sir William James Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Stanier, Beville
Burgoyne, Alan Hughes Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Burn, Colonel C. R. Kerry, Earl of Staveley-Hill, Henry
Butcher, John George Knight, Capt. Eric Ayshford Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Carlile, Edward Hildred Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'm'ts., Mile End) Stewart, Gershom
Cassel, Felix Lewisham, Viscount Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)
Castlereagh, Viscount Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
Cator, John Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Touche, George Alexander
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Mackinder, Halford J. Tullibardine, Marquess of
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.-A. (Worc'r.) Malcolm, Ian Walker, Col. William Hall
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Weigall, Capt A. G.
Clive, Percy Archer Moore, William Wheler, Granville C. H.
Clyde, James Avon Morpeth, Viscount White, Major G. D. (Lancs, Southport)
Cooper, Richard Ashmole Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Courthope, George Loyd Mount, William Arthur Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Neville, Reginald J. N. Winterton, Earl
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Newman, John R. P. Wolmer, Viscount
Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Newton, Harry Kottingham Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Dairymple, Viscount Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Doughty, Sir George Nield, Herbert Worthington-Evans, L.
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Norton-Griffiths, J. Yate, Col. C. E.
Fell, Arthur O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
Fisher, William Hayes Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. H. W. Forster and Lord E. Talbot.
Fleming, Valentine Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Question put accordingly, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 124; Noes, 201.

Division No. 66.] AYES. [9.0 a.m.
Archer-Shee, Major M. Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)
Ashley, Wilfred W. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r) Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.
Astor, Waldorf Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Hill-Wood, Samuel
Baird, John Lawrence Clive, Percy Archer Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Balcarres, Lord Clyde, James Avon Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)
Baring, Captain Hon. Guy Victor Cooper, Richard Ashmole Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)
Barnston, Harry Courthope, George Loyd Hunt, Rowland
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath)
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.) Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Dairymple, Viscount Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Grenwich) Doughty, Sir George Kerry, Earl of
Bennett Goldney, Francis Eyres-Monsell, B. M. Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford
Bigland, Alfred Fell, Arthur Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)
Bird, Alfred Fisher, William Hayes Lewisham, Viscount
Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith. Fleming, Valentine Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.
Boyton, James Gibbs, George Abraham Long, Rt. Hon. Walter
Bridgeman, William Clive Gilmour, Captain John Mackinder, Halford J.
Bull, Sir William James Goldsmith, Frank Malcolm, Ian
Burgoyne, Alan Hughes Gordon, John Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas
Burn, Colonel C. R. Grant, J. A. Moore, William
Butcher, John George Greene, Walter Raymond Morpeth, Viscount
Carlile, Edward Hildred Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward Morrison-Bell, Major A. (Honiton)
Cassel, Felix Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Mount, William Archer
Castlereagh, Viscount Hambro, Angus Vaidemar Neville, Reginald J. N.
Cator, John Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Newman, John R. P.
Newton, Harry Kottingham Rothschild, Lionel de Walker, Col. William Hall
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Royds, Edmund Weigall, Capt. A. G.
Nield, Herbert Rutherford, William (West Derby) Wheler, Granville C. H.
Norton-Griffiths, J. Salter, Arthur Clavell White, Maj. G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) Sanders, Robert Arthur Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Smith, Harold (Warrington) Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Spear, John Ward Winterton, Earl
Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) Stanier, Beville Wolmer, Viscount
Perkins, Walter Frank Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Peto, Basil Edward Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Pole-Carew, Sir R. Steel-Maitland, A. D. Worthington-Evans, L.
Pollock, Ernest Murray Stewart, Gershom Yate, Colonel C. E.
Pryce-Jones, Col. E. Talbot, Lord Edmund
Quilter, William Eley C. Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)
Rawson, Colonel Richard H. Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. H. W. Forster and Mr. Pike Pease.
Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan Touche, George Alexander
Ronaldshay, Earl of Tullibardine, Marquess of
NOES.
Acland, Francis Dyke Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Neilson, Francis
Adamson, William Goldstone, Frank Nolan, Joseph
Addison, Dr. Christopher Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) Norman, Sir Henry
Ainsworth, John Stirling Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) Gulland, John William O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Armitage, Robert Gwynn, Stephen Lucius O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Hockett, John O'Dowd, John
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) O'Grady, James
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) Harmtworth, R. Leicester O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Barton, William Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) O'Malley, William
Beauchamp, Edward Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Bentham, George Jackson Haworth, Arthur A. O'Sullivan, Timothy
Black, Arthur W. Hayden, John Patrick Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Booth, Frederick Handel Hayward, Evan Parker, James (Halifax)
Bowerman, Charles W. Helme, Norval Watson Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)
Brace, William Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.
Brady, Patrick Joseph Henry, Sir Charles S. Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Brigg, Sir John Higham, John Sharp Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)
Brocklehurst, William B. Hinds, John Pirie, Duncan V.
Brunner, John F. L. Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Pointer, Joseph
Burke, E. Haviland. Hudson, Walter Pollard, Sir George H.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hughes, Spencer Leigh Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) Illingworth, Percy H. Power, Patrick Joseph
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) John, Edward Thomas Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Cawley, H. T. (Lancs-, Haywood) Johnson, William Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Chancellor, Henry George Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Radford, G. H.
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Jones, Leif (Rushcliffe) Raffan, Peter Wilson
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry
Clancy, John Joseph Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Clough, William Keating, Matthew Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Clynes, John R. Kellaway, Frederick George Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone. E.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Kilbride, Denis Richards, Thomas
Corbett, A. Cameron King, J. (Somerset, N.) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)
Crumley, Patrick Lawson, Sir W.(Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) Leach, Charles Robinson, Sydney
Dawes, J. A. Levy, Sir Maurice Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Delany, William Lewis, John Herbert Roe, Sir Thomas
Dewar, Sir J. A. Logan, John William Rowlands, James
Dillon, John Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas St. Maur, Harold
Doris, William Lundon, Thomas Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Duffy, William J. Lynch, Arthur Alfred Scanlan, Thomas
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.
Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) MacGhee, Richard Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sherwell, Arthur James
Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of M'Callum, John M. Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Elverston, Harold M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Masterman, C. F. G. Spicer, Sir Albert
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Mathias, Richard Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Essex, Richard Walter Meagher, Michael Summers, James Woolley
Falconer, James Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Sutton, John E.
Farrell, James Patrick Mond, Sir Alfred M. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Fenwick, Charles Money, L. G. Chiozza Tennant, Harold John
Ferens, Thomas Robinson Montagu, Hon. E. S. Toulmin, George
Ffrench, Peter Mooney, J. J. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Field,. William Morgan, George Hay Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Fitzgibbon, John Morrell, Philip Verney, Sir Harry
Flavin, Michael Joseph Munro, Robert Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Gelder, Sir William Alfred Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. Wardle, G. J.
Glanville, Harold James Needham, Christopher T. Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Webb, H. Williams, J. (Glamorgan) Young, William (Perth, East)
Wedgwood, Josiah C. Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
White, Sir George (Norfolk) Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Dudley Ward and Mr. Soares.
White, Patrick (Meath, North) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Mr. JAMES HOPE

May I be allowed to move that the Clause be postponed?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I could only allow a few words in explanation of that suggestion.

Mr. JAMES HOPE

I wish to point out that this Clause covers a good deal of important and contentious matter. I will mention one or two things which are contained in it. There is the whole connection between the consumption of whisky and the efficiency of higher education, which comes under this Clause. That raises, of course, many interesting topics both as to the benefits of education and the benefits of the consumption of whisky, and also as to the reasons why the consumption has diminished, and thereby education has suffered. Then there is the whole connection between the central exchequer and the finance of Scotland and Ireland. Circumstances looming on the horizon make that question a matter of great interest. Then there is the principle of stereotyping grants upon the standard of one particular year. That comes in also on the first Sub-section. Lastly, there is the question of the relative merits of the interception of local duties for local taxation account and payment being made out of the Consolidated Fund. There are six or seven topics of primary interest, and I do submit that it would be better to run through Clauses 12, 13, and 14. Then perhaps the Government will consent to putting off Clause 11, which is of much more complication. So we might end in comparative harmony, though not without a sense of bitterness and injustice.

Mr. CHURCHILL

The bon. Gentleman has asked us to postpone this Clause 11. I am willing to admit frankly that there are more points of substance in Clause 11 than in the other three clauses. I welcome very much the note in his remarks, and I should be very anxious, indeed, to relieve the House from the heavy labours they have endured so long. If it would meet the view of bon. Gentlemen opposite, I would assent to the postponing of Clause 11 on the understanding that the other three clauses were disposed of in a reasonable time.

Mr. JAMES HOPE

I made no offer whatever. I am not authorised to do so. But I do suggest that it would be for the general convenience that there should be this postponement.

Mr. CHIOZZA MONEY

I think the hon. Member has forgotten the former arguments addressed by his Friends to the Committee. When we approached Clause 10 we were told that that was the important Clause, and that if the Government would postpone the consideration of that, the remainder was not of importance. Now the same argument is used in regard to Clause 11. I am driven to the conclusion that there is not as much sincerity in his remarks as he would suggest.

Mr. CHURCHILL

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 207; Noes, 125.

Division No. 67.] AYES. [9.15 a.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Brocklehurst, William B. Crawthay-Williams, Eliot
Acland, Francis Dyke Brunner, John F. L. Crumley, Patrick
Adamson, William Bryce, John Annan Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)
Addison, Dr. Christopher Burke, E. Haviland. Dawes, James Arthur
Ainsworth, John Stirling Burnt, Rt. Hen. John Delany, William
Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas
Armitage, Robert Byles, Wiliam Pollard Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-Shire)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Carr-Gomm, H. W. Doris, William
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) Cawley, H. T. (Lance., Heywood) Duffy, William J.
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Cawley, Sir Fredk. (Prestwich) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)
Barton, William Chancellor, Henry George Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.)
Beauchamp, Edward Chapple, Dr. William Allen Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)
Bentham, George Jackson Clancy, John Joseph Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of
Black, Arthur W. Clough, William Elverston, Harold
Booth, Frederick Handel Clynes, John R. Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)
Bowerman, Charles W. Condon, Thomas Joseph Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wrexford, N.)
Brace, William Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Essex, Richard Walter
Brady, Patrick Joseph Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Falconer, James
Brigg, Sir John Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Farrell, James Patrick
Fenwick, Charles MacGhee, Richard Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone. E.)
Ferens, Thomas Robinson Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Richards, Thomas
Ffrench, Peter MacVeagh, Jeremiah Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Field, William M'Callum, John M. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Fitzgibbon, John M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Marks, George Croydon Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)
Glanville, Harold James Masterman, C. F. G. Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Mathias, Richard Robinson, Sydney
Goldstone, Frank Meagher, Michael Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Roe, Sir Thomas
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz Rowlands, James
Hackett, John Money, L. G. Chiozza St. Maur, Harold
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Montagu, Hon. E. S. Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Mooney, John J. Scanlan, Thomas
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Morgan, George Hay Schwann, Sir Charles E.
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Morrell, Philip Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Munro, Robert Seely, Col., Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. Sherwell, Arthur James
Haworth, Arthur A. Needham, Christopher T. Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Hayden, John Patrick Neilson, Francis Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)
Hayward, Evan Nolan, Joseph Soares, Ernest Joseph
Helme, Norval Watson Norman, Sir Henry Spicer, Sir Albert
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Henry, Sir Charles S. O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Summers, James Woolley
Higham, John Sharp O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Sutton, John E.
Hinds, John O'Dowd, John Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Grady, James Tennant, Harold John
Hudson, Walter O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Toulmin, George
Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Malley, William Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Verney, Sir Harry
Johnson, William O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tidvil) O'Sullivan, Timothy Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Jones, Leif Stratton (Notts, Rushcliffe) Palmer, Godfrey Mark Wardle, George J.
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Parker, James (Halifax) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Jones, W. S. Glyn. (T'w'r H'mts, Stepney) Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) Webb, H.
Keating, Matthew Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Kellaway, Frederick George Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) White, Sir George (Norfolk)
Kilbride, Denis Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
King, Joseph (Somerset, North) Pirie, Duncan V. Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Pointer, Joseph Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Law, Hugh A (Donegal, W.) Pollard, Sir George H. Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Lawson, Sir W.(Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) Power, Patrick Joseph Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Leach, Charles Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Levy, Sir Maurice Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Lewis, John Herbert Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Young, William (Perth, East)
Logan, John William Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Radford, George Heynes
Lundon, Thomas Raffan, peter Wilson TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
Lynch, Arthur Alfred Raphael, Herbert Henry
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
NOES.
Archer-Shee, Major Martin Dairymple, Viscount Lewisham, Viscount
Ashley, Wilfred W. Doughty, Sir George Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.
Astor, Waldorf Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. Long, Rt. Hon. Walter
Baird, J. L. Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Mackinder, Halford J.
Balcarres, Lord Fell, Arthur Malcolm, Ian
Barnston, Harry Fisher, W. Hayes Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas
Barrie, Hugh T. (Londonderry) Fleming, Valentine Moore, William
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc.) Forster, Henry William Morpeth, Viscount
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Gilmour, Captain John Morrison-Bill, Major A. C. (Honiton)
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Goldsmith, Frank Mount, William Arthur
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Gordon, John Neville, Reginald J. N.
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Goulding, Edward Alfred Newdegate, F. A.
Bigland, Alfred Grant, J. A. Newman, John R. P.
Bird, Alfred Greene, W. R Newton, Harry Kottingham
Boscawn, Sackville T. Griffith. Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Boyton, James Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Nield, Herbert
Bridgeman, William Clive Hambro, Angus Vaidemar Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)
Bull, Sir William James Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
Burn, Colonel C. R. Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
Carlile, Edward Hildred Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Cassel, Felix Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Castlereagh, Viscount Hill-Wood, Samuel Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)
Cator, John Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Perkins, Walter Frank
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Peto, Basil Edward
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Wor'cr.) Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) Pole-Carew, Sir R.
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Hunt, Rowland Pollock, Ernest Murray
Clive, Percy Archer Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) Pryce-Jones. Col. E. (Montgom'y B'ghs)
Clyde, James Avon Ingleby, Holcombe Quilter, William Eley C.
Cooper, Richard Ashmole Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Rawson, Col. Richard H.
Craig, Captain James (Down, E) Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Ronaldshay, Earl of
Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Kerry, Earl of Rothschild, Lionel de
Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred Knight, Capt Erie Ayshford Royds, Edmund
Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.) Winterton, Earl
Salter, Arthur Clavell Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Wolmer, Viscount
Sanders, Robert Arthur Touche, George Alexander Wood, Hon. E. F. G. (Yorks, Ripon)
Smith, Harold (Warrington) Tullibardine, Marquess of Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Spear, John Ward Walker, Col. William Hall Worthington-Evans, L. (Colchester)
Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) Weigall, Capt. A. G. Yate, Col. C. E
Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) Wheler, Granville C. H.
Steel-Maitland, A. D. White, Maj. G. D. (Lanc, Southport) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Gibbs and Mr. Courthope.
Stewart, Gershom Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Talbot, Lord Edmund Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude

Question put accordingly, "That the Clause be postponed."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 129; Noes, 211.

Division No. 68.] AYES. [9.25 a.m.
Archer-Shee, Major M. Goldsmith, Frank Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Ashley, Wilfrid W. Gordon, John Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)
Astor, Waldorf Goulding, Edward Alfred Perkins, Walter Frank
Baird, John Lawrence Grant, J. A. Peto, Basil Edward
Balcarres, Lord Greene, Walter Raymond Pole-Carew, Sir R.
Barnston, H. Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward Pollock, Ernest Murray
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Pryce-Jones, Col. E.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.) Hambro, Angus Valdemar Quilter, William Eley C.
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Hardy, Laurence Rawson, Col. Richard H.
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. Ronaldshay, Earl of
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Hill, Sir Clement L. Rothschild, Lionel de
Bigland, Alfred Hill-Wood, Samuel Royds, Edmund
Bird, Alfred Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Boscawen, Col. A. S. T. Griffith. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Salter, Arthur Clavell
Boyton, James Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) Sanders, Robert Arthur
Bridgeman, William Clive Hunt, Rowland Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Bull, Sir William James Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Burgoyne, Alan Hughes Ingleby, Holcombe Spear, John Ward
Burn, Colonel C. R. Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Carlile, Edward Hildred Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Staveley-Hill, Henry
Cassel, Felix Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Castlereagh, Viscount Kerry, Earl of Stewart, Gershom
Cator, John Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford Talbot, Lord Edmund
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Lewisham, Viscount Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Wore.) Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Touche, George Alexander
Clive, Percy Archer Mackinder, Halford J Tullibardine, Marquess of
Clyde, James Avon Malcolm, Ian Walker, Col. William Hall
Cooper, Richard Ashmole Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Weigall, Capt. A. G.
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Moore, William Wheler, Granville C. H.
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Morpeth, Viscount White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Morrison-Boll, Major A. C. (Honiton) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)
Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred Mount, William Arthur Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Dairymple, Viscount Neville, Reginald J. N. Winterton, Earl
Doughty, Sir George Newdegate, F. A. Wolmer, Viscount
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. Newman, John R. P. Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Newton, Harry Kottingham Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Fell, Arthur Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Worthington-Evans, L.
Fisher, William Hayes Nield, Herbert Yate, Colonel C. E.
Fleming, Valentine Norton-Griffiths, J. Yerburgh, Robert
Forster, Henry William O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
Gibbs, George Abraham Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Courthope and Mr. S. Roberts.
Gilmour, Captain John Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
NOES.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Brocklehurst, William B. Crumley, Patrick
Acland, Francis Dyke Brunner, John F. L. Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)
Adamson, William Bryce, J. Annan Dawes, J. A.
Addison, Dr. C. Burke, E. Haviland. Delany, William
Ainsworth, John Stirling Burns, Rt. Hon. John Denman, Hon. R. D.
Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) Dewar, Sir J. A.
Armitage, Robert Byles, William Pollard Dillon, John
Ashton, Thomas Gair Carr-Gomm, H. W. Doris, William
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Duffy, William J.
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) Chancellor, Henry George Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)
Barton, William Chapple, Dr. William Allen Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.)
Beauchamp, Edward Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Benn, W. (T. Hints., St. George) Clancy, John Joseph Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)
Bentham, G. J. Clough, William Eli bank, Rt. Hen. Master of
Black, Arthur W. Clynes, John R. Elverston, Harold
Booth, Frederick Handel Condon, Thomas Joseph Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)
Bowerman, C. W. Corbett, A. Cameron Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)
Brace, William Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Essex, Richard Walter
Brady, Patrick Joseph Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Falconer, James
Brigg, Sir John Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Farrell, James Patrick
Fenwick, Charles Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Ferens, Thomas Robinson MacVeagh, Jeremiah Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
Ffrench, Peter M'Callum, John M. Richards, Thomas
Field, William M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Fitzgibbon, John Marks, George Croydon Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Masterman, C. F. G. Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Glanville, Harold James Mathias, Richard Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Meagher, Michael Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Goldstone, Frank Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Robinson, Sidney
Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) Mond, Sir Alfred Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Money, L. G. Chiozza Roe, Sir Thomas
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Montagu, Hon. E. S. Rowlands, James
Hackett, John Mooney, John J. St. Maur, Harold
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Morgan, George Hay Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Morrell, Philip Scanlan, Thomas
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Munro, Robert Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) Needham, Christopher J. Seely, Col., Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Neilson, Francis Sherwell, Arthur James
Haworth, Arthur A. Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Hayden, John Patrick Nolan, Joseph Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Hayward, Evan Norman, Sir Henry Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Helme, Norval Watson O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Soares, Ernest
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Spicer, Sir Albert
Henry, Sir Charles S. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Higham, John Sharp O'Dowd, John Summers, James Wooley
Hinds, John O'Grady, James Sutton, John E
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Hudson, Walter O'Malley, William Tennant, Harold John
Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Toulmin, George
Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Johnson, W. O'Sullivan, Timothy Verney, Sir Harry
Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Palmer, Godfrey Mark Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Parker, James (Halifax) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Janes, William (Carnarvonshire) Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) Wardle, George J.
Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) Pearce, William (Limehouse) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Keating, Matthew Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. Webb, H.
Kellaway, Frederick George Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Kilbride, Denis Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) White, Sir George (Norfolk)
King, Joseph (Somerset, North) Pirie, Duncan Vernon White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Pointer, Joseph Whyte, A. F.
Law, Hugh A. Pollard, Sir George H. Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Lawson, Sir W.(Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) Power, Patrick Joseph Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Leach, Charles Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Williamson, Sir A.
Levy, Sir Maurice Price, Sir Robert J. Wilson, Hon. G. G (Hull, W.)
Lewis, John Herbert Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Logan, John William Primrose, Hon. Nell James Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Radford, George Heynes Young, William (Perth, East)
Lundon, Thomas Raffan, Peter Wilson
Lynch, Arthur Alfred Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Rea, Waiter Russell (Scarborough)
MacGhee, Richard

Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.

Mr. JAMES HOPE

I beg to move in Sub-section (1) to leave out the words "and the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account."

I do it for this reason, that the relations between the Exchequer and the finances of Scotland and Ireland undoubtedly want revising. Recent legislation has undoubtedly improved the position both of Scotland and Ireland at the expense of the Exchequer, and I do not think that we should continue the present system of allowing these funds to go to these local authorities until the whole relations between the Exchequer and Scotland and Ireland have been inquired into. Some years ago an independent committee sat at Edinburgh, under Mr. Jamieson, and came to the conclusion, though Scotsmen themselves, that Scotland was treated generously by the Exchequer, and they had nothing more to ask for. I think the trend of more recent legislation has turned that generosity into lavishness, and I do not think we should extend and increase the payments under this Section until the whole matter has been gone into. I have to learn the views of the Treasury on the point.

Mr. HOBHOUSE

Whether the hon. Gentleman approves or does not approve of the proposals we make in this Clause, at all events it is a symmetrical proposal which deals on precisely similar terms with the local taxation account of the three countries. The proposal of the hon. Gentleman would isolate Scotland and render our treatment of her entirely different from that of the two other countries. For that reason I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Sir ALFRED CRIPPS

moved in Subsection (1) to leave out the words "and every subsequent financial."

This is really a matter of very important principle. We have to deal with the future Grant paid out of the Exchequer to the Local Taxation account. The proposal is not only for the current year but for every subsequent year, but the amount shall annually be the same as the amount paid into that account in the year 1909. In the first place it is extremely unfair to stereotype the account at all. That account ought to grow in proportion to the amount which comes from the taxes. It is quite contrary to principle to determine a matter of this sort, not only for one year but for every subsequent year. The Secretary to the Treasury said 1909 would be fatal to the local authorities, because it would be higher than the amount in 1910. Well, to a certain extent that is true, because 1910 was an exceedingly low year. But if you go back behind 1909 to the last five or six, or even ten years, I believe in every case the amount was larger than it was in 1909. Therefore, what you are really doing is taking a comparitively low year when the amount paid to the local authorities was far below the average—as a matter of fact about £100,000 below the average—you take a low year and say, so far as the local authorities are concerned, their payments are to be limited to that amount. Surely we should deal fairly with the local authorities. They have regulated their expenditure in reliance on the fact that there has been a constant growth as regards the amount payable to them out of the local taxation account. It is notorious in connection with that that local expenditure is growing, and has been growing, for years. I do not believe that tendency can be arrested. There are a large number of important questions local authorities have to deal with, and so far from the Treasury seeking to starve them, the Treasury ought to treat them in what I would call a generous fashion. There is no reason for taking a low year and stereotyping a low amount for every year in the future. I believe that earlier in the discussions a concession was made, and the words were inserted—"until Parliament otherwise determines." Of course, these words would not weaken the Amendment. They leave the matter over for subsequent discussion. I think the words of my Amendment would be better because, if the Clause stands as it is at present, it would be a determination by Parliament that these amounts should be limited, and unfairly limited, not only for the current year, but for every subsequent year.

Mr. HOBHOUSE

The proposal which the hon. and learned Gentleman has made to the Committee would have the effect of limiting the arrangement which is made under this Bill to exactly three weeks. If the hon. and learned Gentleman and the Committee will consider that matter they will see that in those circumstances it would hardly be worth while asking Parliament to make this arrangement at all. We have, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has pointed out, taken a year which is perhaps not the most favourable, but which is certainly not the least favourable. The revenue payable in respect of that year—not payable in that year, but in respect of that year—was swollen unquestionably by circumstances into which I need not now go. Having fixed on that year, which has yielded a more satisfactory revenue for educational purposes than years which preceded it, I fear we must adhere to the form of the Clause.

Mr. LONG

If the Amendment were intended in the sense in which the right hon. Gentleman has interpreted it the effect would, no doubt, be to bring the proposal in the Bill to an end in an untimely manner. What we want is to secure the same result as we sought to bring about in regard to Clause 10. That was an injury you were doing; this is an insult you are adding to the injury. Under the previous Clause you have repealed your own legislation, and have taken away what you yourselves admitted with a great flourish of trumpets to be the property of the local authorities. In this Clause you are stereotyping your payment and selecting a year which is singularly unfavourable. Having had some experience of this local taxation question as President of the Local Government Board, I venture to say that the State, when it makes a contribution in aid of local rates has always made it a practice to take an average of years. The State never yet took a single year, and it certainly would not take a year which was the lowest since 1894, with the exception of last year. Let the Committee realise the injustice which is being done here. If hon. Members Mad the figures before them they would realise that they are doing a grave injustice. Consider the question of London alone. London suffers enormously, because certain payments were stereotyped, not by grants out of the Exchequer, but in the distribution between local authorities and others. And that very stereotyping did London enormous injury, because, while the expenditure which London is called on to bear, as a great centre of local government, is constantly increasing—and properly so—the contribution which the State makes in respect of it remains at a fixed sum. I defy anybody to show there is any justice in a plan of that kind. The State is asked to come forward and say to the local authorities: "We accept responsibility for certain expenditure, which in our judgment should be regarded as national, and not local. In order to meet that, for want of a better system we make you a block grant."

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

This is not in order on the Clause. It has been pointed out that the particular effect of this Amendment would be to limit the operation of the Clause to a period ending at the close of the current financial year. Therefore I should confine the discussion to the alleged limits within which the Clause would operate.

Mr. LONG

I should not for a moment wish to clash any ruling of yours, Sir. Although I admit the phraseology of this Amendment would not have the effect we desire, we do desire to prevent the Government making statutory and continuous a system to which we object, and which we think should be limited as the proposal in Clause 10 has been to some degree limited by the insertion of the words "until Parliament otherwise determines." This proposal without amendment of some kind will make permanent an injustice which ought certainly to be remedied within a brief period of time. I was in hopes that the Government—who, I do not think can contest the justice of our cause—might be prepared to insert some words which, if they would not redress our grievance, would at all events mitigate it. Increasing Grants-in-Aid are made by the Imperial Exchequer to share with the local authorities those burdens, and great danger attached to the selection of one particular year and then stereotyping that year. Once you take that line it is natural that Parliament is reluctant to open up the whole question and find a new method. Though London and many of our great towns have complained bitterly, no serious attempt has been made to secure a better basis of distribution. Therefore, if the Government are not prepared to produce a new scheme, I respectfully submit they should not be allowed to perpetuate a system which is a bad one, and if they are going to perpetuate it should take the average of a number of years. I submit also that whatever arrangement they make now should be of a purely temporary character, so that the hands of Parliament should be free to deal with this question untrammelled in the future.

Mr. CHURCHILL

I rise for the purpose of moving, Sir, that you report Progress and ask leave to sit again. I frankly admit we have not made quite the progress which the Government had hoped, and we have not made the progress which the Prime Minister expected we should make, but we have made very substantial progress, which well repays the exertions which Members on all sides have been put to. If we were to continue to discuss these Amendments without breaking off within a reasonable period there would be very unusual embarrassment because of the printing of the Order Paper for the Friday sitting, and we should run the risk of sacrificing the Friday sitting, which would be a very unfortunate and untoward occurrence, and which would lose us at a stroke the advantages for which we have toiled so long in the progress of public business. In these circumstances, having regard to the great importance which we attach to the Supplementary Estimates which are down for the Friday sitting, I respectfully beg to move that you do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.

Mr. LONG

I do not propose to oppose the Motion. It is a proof that the right hon. Gentleman has taken to heart the saying "It is never too late to mend," and as there is abundant room for improvement I am glad to see him seizing the opportunity. I, for one, rejoice to come to this conclusion, and with this relief from a very arduous, a not altogether satisfactory, but not unprofitable, task.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next [13th March.]

And it being after Half-past Eleven of the clock upon Thursday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at five minutes before Ten a.m., Friday, 10th March.