§ As amended, further considered.
§ * MR. FELL (Great Yarmouth)in moving to leave out Clause 1, said that as he was prevented yesterday by the closure from moving a new clause of which he had given notice with the view of making the Bill more workable, he would now state some of the views which he had intended to bring before the House, so that the Minister in charge of the Bill might have an opportunity of explaining the effect of the clause. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on the manner in which he had carried out he instructions he received from the Cabinet, and on ren- 94 dering the measure as perfect as possible under those instructions. He held, however, that it was impossible under those instructions to frame a practical working Bill. The first clause provided that an. elector registered in more than one constituency should select the constituency in which he decided to vote. He believed there would be over 500,000 electors with plural qualifications whose names would figure on the registers and who would be to all intents and purposes dead. Those who were interested in the conduct of elections knew that one of the main difficulties in preventing personation arose in connection with the question of dead voters whoso names appeared on the registers. It would be a hundredfold more difficult to prevent personation in the case of plural voters. Personation agents, registration agents, and others might be aware that people were dead, but none of these people would have any possible means of ascertaining that an elector had selected another constituency as the place where he meant to vote, and, therefore, there would be absolutely no possibility of preventing personation with regard to those plural voters whom he would call "dead electors," In the City of London, out of 30,000 electors, there would probably not be more than 5,000 starred as electors in the constituency. The case of the University constituencies would be still worse, for instead of estimating one to four, there would be very few indeed. He had a University vote himself, but he had left the University long ago and had acquired greater interests in other constituencies, and the University was not likely to be the constituency in which he would record his vote. In these University constituencies three out of four on the register would be dead electors, and the difficulties in such cases would be insuperable. Then with regard to the expenses, taking again the City of London, the candidates there would practically have to pay the expense of canvassing the whole of 30,000 electors, only one in five of whom would vote. And so throughout the country, although there would be fewer electors, instead of the expenses of candidates being reduced, they would be materially increased. The candidates would have to pay for the whole register, although it was what he would call a fraudulent register. He 95 believed it was acknowledged that very few people would of themselves and of their own will make the selection at the time; that the selection would be made for them by the Party agents, so that the expense following thereon would be thrown either on the candidate, or on the organisation committee of the Party to which he belonged, so that instead of reducing the expenses of election contests it would materially increase them. That was a point which ought to weigh with the House in making a change of this kind. The next question was what was called "gerrymandering." Again taking the case of the City of London, there were there at least two Conservatives to one Liberal. An astute Liberal election agent might see that he would score if he could carry the City of London for his Party, and he might make such arrangements as would get all the Liberals with plural votes in the City to select that constituency to vote in. Supposing that there were 10,000 Liberal electors, and 20,000 Conservative, on the election day it might be found that the 10,000 Liberals were starred and very few Conservatives. Of course the Conservatives could not then move to counteract that, and the Liberals would carry the two seats for the City. That was an illustration of the gerrymandering and wire-pulling which would take place all over the country. Another point was that it was not fair to throw on plural voters such a temptation as this clause provided to prevent them voting more than once. Say that an elector resided in one constituency, there would be nobody there either amongst his friends or his Party who would know that he had selected to vote in another constituency. He would probably be put on local committees, asked to attend meetings, requested to put the candidate's card in his window, receive election literature and cards asking him to vote early; and in the morning of the polling day a motor car would drive up to his house to take him to the polling station. The Party canvasser would unknowingly be put in the position of what the French called an agent provocateur, and he could not help thinking that in a large number of cases the elector would succumb and go and vote. The elector would not give himself away and 96 confess that he had selected to vote in another constituency, because he liked to be called upon to join the local Party committees and to attend Party demonstrations. That was not a fair strain to put on any man, particularly if he knew that there was no possibility of his being found out. No doubt he would be breaking the law, but he should not be tempted to do so. If this Bill became law there would be petitions for scrutiny of the votes cast in a large number of constituencies, especially in those where the contest had been close. He believed that they should have to come to the proposal frequently made that every man tendering a vote at the poll should make a declaration that he had not voted in any other constituency. On these grounds he moved that the clause be omitted.
§ SIR D. DIXON (Belfast, N.)seconded.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 5, to leave out Clause 1."(Mr. Fell.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words 'A person' stand part of the Bill."
§ THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT,) Lancashire, Rossendalesaid he could not be expected to accept this Motion for the omission of Clause 1, which, of course, contained the whole of the Bill except some subsidiary machinery. He was sorry to hear from the hon. Gentleman that he had created a sort of electoral catacomb, which, according to the hon. Member's description, was teeming with dead electors. The special complaint as to the maximum scale of expenses would be met by an Amendment of which he had given notice on Clause 4. He admitted that it was not wholly satisfactory, but it was a rough and ready method, and it was the best that could be devised. He did not think the Bill would lead to gerrymandering. It was impossible to predict what attitude would be adopted or what course was likely to be taken by the majority of plural voters, and he should think that except in the case of a University the majority of plural voters would like to vote at their own 97 homes, as he would in his own case. The possibilities of gerrymandering were enormously less under his proposals than under any of the alternative proposals of the Opposition. The hon. Member for Yarmouth had drawn a highly coloured picture of what would happen on polling day to the voter who had not selected a place in which to vote. There was going to be a motor car in waiting on the morning of the poll, but any hon. Member who knew anything about electioneering knew that if a voter had been resident in a constituency for any time before the day of the poll he would have been captured by one of the Party agents. The agent would not send a motor car for an elector on the morning of the election unless he had satisfied himself which way he was going to vote. He was only dealing with the case where an elector had a residence in a place, but had a vote elsewhere. He thought hon. Gentlemen would realise that such a voter was not likely to exercise his vote elsewhere or to break the law. The hon. Member seemed to think that voters would be induced by agents to break the law.
§ * MR. FELLsaid that his statement was that the agents would have no opportunity of knowing, for the voter would not tell them that he had selected another constituency.
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid there were two things which might happen. An agent knowing that a voter had selected might try to induce him to vote in another constituency. If he did that he would be punishable under this Bill. The second possibility was that an innocent agent might induce a man not knowing that he had selected to vote. The agent was not guilty then, and the penalty would not be enforced against the agent at all but against the voter who was guilty. To move the rejection of Clause 1 was practically to move the rejection of the Bill. The hon. Member thought that the Bill would lead to a large increase of scrutinies in regard to men who had innocently voted without the knowledge that they were plural voters. That was not, he thought, likely to be the case, as it was provided that the vote of a man 98 who had voted innocently, without any knowledge that he was a plural voter, should not be deducted, and the experience of scrutinies during the last ten years would not lead ordinary Members of Parliament to enter upon them.
§ COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY (Shropshire, Newport)believed the measure would lead to a great deal of sharp practice, and to considerable doubt on the part of the innocent voter whether he was quite safe in voting. He was sure that a large class of voters would be deterred from voting in consequence of fear of the operation of the Bill. He asked whether a voter who made no selection for the constituency in which he was registered before the 5th of September and who after that date was put on the register for another constituency and for the first time became a plural voter would be disfranchised unless he made an application to the court.
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid that having made no selection, if a voter after the 5th of September become a plural voter he must make an application to the court unless he was aware that he was likely to become a plural voter and made a selection.
§ COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYBut he is not disfranchised if he does not do that?
§ MR. HARCOURTHe is not disfranchised, but he is unable to vote in any way in contravention of this Act.
§ CAPTAIN CRAIG (Down, E.)said it was quite true that the right hon. Gentleman had from time to time met the Opposition when they had objected to certain parts of the Bill, but the broad principle embodied in the first clause had not been dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman. The gravest objection had been taken to that Clause. Men, whether they were thrifty merchants who had saved money, and had acquired property in various parts of the county, or whether they had acquired wealth by succession, were placed at a very great disadvantage as compared with men with only one vote. The right hon. Gentleman had never 99 touched that vital point. He had said that the responsibility rested with every voter to find out in the first instance how many qualifications he had in different parts of the country, and to select before a certain date the constituency in which he would vote. The right hon. Gentleman, however, was placing a penalty on that class of voters. The ordinary voter who was convinced he had only one vote was in a superior position to those who through acquiring property had more than one qualification. That was a most undesirable state of affairs. Although the right hon. Gentleman had removed some of the objectionable features of the clause it was still as objectionable in principle as when the Bill was first introduced. To have determined to hold all the elections on one day would have been a more simple method by which to attain the desired end than the ponderous machinery of the present Bill. Having adopted this clause, the right hon. Gentleman had found it impossible, from its many technicalities, to achieve his object without adding to the multitude of words with which this clause was involved. If he had adopted the simpler plans suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition the intricacies and the almost insurmountable difficulties with which they were now face to face would have entirely disappeared. But, as it was, the Opposition must criticise every line of the clause. The vital point to which they objected was the principle of penalising those who were registered in more than one constituency. He thought hon. Members on both sides of the House saw in this clause a very great hardship on those who by in good faith asking for a voting paper at the polling booth committed a crime in the eyes of the right hon. Gentleman. That a man who asked innocently for a voting paper should be penalised was a grave flaw in the Bill to which attention had been called repeatedly from the Opposition side of the House, but they had had no assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he would mitigate the severity of the penalty It was not too much to say that this matter should receive even at the eleventh hour the earnest consideration of the Government. Another point was the 100 long time which it would take the mass of the public to understand the provisions of the Bill. The man who subscribed to the funds of any political party would be looked after, but others might not know until too late that they had been placed on the register of two constituencies and grave consequences might follow if they tried to vote. There were on the Paper several Amendments, but if they allowed the clause to pass without protest now they might not, owing to the operation of the guillotine, have another chance of discussing the matter. One remarkable feature of the debate had been the fact that whenever Members behind the Front Government Bench got up to take part in the discussion they invariably supported the Amendments moved from the Opposition side. But few Liberal Members had attended to give the House the benefit of their advice, and the right hon. Gentleman in carrying the measure through the House had relied on the votes of those who were not in the House during the debates.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN (Worcestershire, E.)said the right hon. Gentleman had said truly that Clause 1 was, in effect, the Bill. The subsequent clauses were only concerned with the machinery by which the principles of the Bill were to be carried into effect. He did not suppose that any member of the Government would pretend for a moment that any of the Amendments the Government proposed to introduce into the Bill would mitigate the, objections of the Opposition to it. His first cardinal objection to this clause, which embodied all the active principles in the Bill, was that whilst the professed object of its supporters was to equalise voting power, it dealt only with the least of the anomalies that existed, and left absolutely untouched the, far greater inequalities caused by a lack of the proper distribution of seats. That, of course, was a big question, and the Government might plead that they could not deal with it at a time like the present. But if they were to deal with this part of the subject only, his first objection was that they made no distinction between the case of the man who had a qualification but no real or practical interest in the public lite 101 of a constituency, and the man who had a genuine and real interest in it. He would not attempt to defend the claims of the out-voters or faggot voters who had no real or genuine interest in the places where they had a qualification, but he strongly objected to the refusal of the Government to entertain any claim on behalf of men who had a real and genuine interest in more than one place, and who might be, and in fact, often were, active in the public work of two constituencies, and were perhaps them selves the source of a great part of the prosperity upon which those constituencies depended. He objected, further, to the unnecessary obstacles and impediments which were placed in the way of a man who had more than one qualification exercising even a single vote. Both the First Commissioner of Works and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken of it as though it were an ordinary duty of citizenship that the plural voter should take active steps to secure the right to vote. The moment it was shown that the poor man would in many cases run the risk of being disfranchised he observed that the Government showed a greater tenderness, but he thought the hardship was the same whether the man was rich or poor. The object of the Government ought to be to facilitate the exercise of the right to vote by any properly qualified voter, and not to place new obstacles in the way of those who always had been qualified. What was the object of insisting, as this clause did, that not only should a man under no circumstances vote twice, but that he should not vote at all, though possessing two qualifications, if he did not before the 5th September indicate of which of those two he meant he avail himself? The attempts to defend this provision had been of the flimsiest. There had been hardly any serious effort to show that it was necessary for any object which the Government had in view. The Government said in the course of the Committee discussion that it was required in order to show when a register came into force who was and who was not qualified to vote. The bottom was knocked out of that argument yesterday by the First Commissioner of Works when he said it would be impossible under this Bill to 102 have a clean register. The only reason which the Government had put forward for insisting upon this prior selection by the voter had broken down in the course of discussion, and the prior selection itself now stood wholly without justification if the object of the Government were merely to prevent a man voting twice. The Government had still the opportunity to omit this provision and to allow a man to make a selection at any time. If their object was only to prevent a man voting twice it would be attained just the same. If the object of the Government was to make it difficult for voters who had more than one qualification to vote at all, then, of coarse, they would resist any proposal to alter this provision. On the ground that the clause put unnecessary obstacles in the way of a man voting once, apart from other grounds, he should continue his opposition to the clause in the form in which it now stood. There was another objection to the clause. It introduced a most complicated procedure into the electoral system. It was left to Party agents and Party candidates to provide for the whole of the new work necessitated by this measure and to bear the cost of carrying it out. They were agreed, he thought, that elections were already sufficiently costly to candidates, and he was surprised that one of the first measures of a House of Commons which he thought was already prepared to favour a subsidy to Members to meet their election expenses as well as the payment of official expenses out of public funds, should be one which would enormously increase the expenditure incurred by candidates and Members, and, which, at the same time, would magnify the part played in our electoral system by Party agents and the experts in the machinery of elections to the detriment of the truest expression of the interests of the constituency and the country.
§ SIR FREDERICK BANBURY (City of London)supported the Amendment. He objected to the principle contained in the clause for two reasons—first, because he saw no reason why the man who happened to have two qualifications should not have two votes; and, secondly, because 103 he believed that the method chosen to bring about the result aimed at was extremely cumbrous, and would result in a man who had two qualifications finding in many cases that he had no vote at all. He could conceive no reason why a man who resided or had business premises in any given constituency in which he paid rates and taxes should not have a voice in the selection of the person who was to represent him in this House. The Government might think that there should be equal electoral rights, one man one vote, and one vote one value, but the right hon. Gentleman had not taken any steps to ensure that. The fact that a man had been able to secure more than one qualification was Prima facie evidence that he was a good citizen and was able to give as good a vote as the man who through no fault of his own—he having less brains perhaps—had not been able to secure a second qualification. Why had the right hon. Gentleman departed 'from the precedent which had always been followed, so far as he knew, with any Reform Bill? Whenever any change had been made in the franchise it had always been followed by a dissolution. [An HON. MEMBER: The Ballot.] The ballot was merely a change in the method of recording the votes, and not a change in the franchise at all. When they altered the franchise in the way proposed by this Bill the House would not truly represent the great body of the electors. The Bill affected those who had gained for themselves a position in the country, and it had been left to, hon. Gentlemen opposite to cast to the winds the old Liberal doctrine that taxation and representation should go together. The primary object of an elector was to return as good a Member and as good a House as could be obtained. Were they likely to improve the House of Commons by abolishing plural voting? Plural voters would cease to take an interest in politics, because they would run the risk of getting two years hard labour, and they might have to go to the police court to find out where they could vote. The result might be that they would get to the state of things which existed in America where the more intellectual section of the community washed their hands of politics 104 altogether. The original Bill contained about sixty-seven lines, but no less than 117 lines were added during the Report stage. The manner in which the abolition of plural voting was to be carried out was very complicated, and would cause great trouble and disturbance. That could not possibly be denied. It might have been enacted that no man should be allowed to vote twice, but the Government refused to do that. A very large number of people would be in ignorance as to whether they had one or two votes. They would not be aware of the exact formalities they had to go through, with the result that they would do nothing, and would be disfranchised. The right hon. Gentleman had said that if an agent knowingly persuaded a man to vote twice he could be proceeded against, but how were they going to prove that the agent, acted knowingly? The Bill was full of all sorts of legal formalities and difficulties in the way of a man exercising the first right of citizenship. He often found that people did not attach as much importance to the fact that they had a vote as they ought to do, and he was afraid this Bill would increase their apathy recognised that it would be impossible for the right hon. Gentleman to make any con cessions upon this clause. It was claimed that the object of the Bill was to abolish plural voting, but he thought the idea was to prevent anyone with property from voting at all. Under these circum stances he hoped his hon. friend would go to a division, and all light thinking men who desired to preserve just rights for all citizens ought to support him in the division lobby.
§ MR. J. F. MASON (Windsor)said this Bill threw upon the voter the obligation of finding out whether he was on the register for more than one constituency. Up to the day before the last election he did not know that he had two votes himself. The difficulty would arise more in the case of lodger voters. He was aware that the right hon. Gentle man had raised an objection to throwing upon those in charge of registration work the duty of advising new voters that they were plural voters. That difficulty might be overcome if the registration clerks advised the new voters who were not on the previous register. Every 105 plural voter would then get a notice from each constituency in which he was registered, and that would draw his attention to the fact that he had more than one vote. He could then take immediate action to secure his right to vote.
MR. HICKS REACH (Gloucestershire, Tewkesbury)said he joined with his hon. friends in strongly objecting to this clause. The Government could not pretend that they got a mandate at the last election to bring in a Bill of this kind. He ventured to say that in not one constituency out of fifty was the question of plural voting mentioned. [Cries of "Oh"]. He knew that in the division with which he was connected the question was not, discussed at all. He objected to the clause because the right hon. Gentleman had taken a very round about way of carrying out the purpose he had in view. He might have brought in a Bill providing that all elections should be fought on one day. That was a principle which had many supporters on both sides of the House, and it was one to which not many objections of great weight could be stated. He also objected to the clause because it would have the effect of keeping away from the poll a great many people who were entitled to vote. There were a large number of voters who were always very timid about going to the poll at all, and when they were told that if they voted or attempted to vote, thinking that they had only one qualification, and then it was found they had more, they would render themselves liable to a penalty, they would not vote at all. He objected to the clause because it would largely increase the power of election agents. There were on the register now a large number of people who thought that their names had been taken off, but in future it would be the object of the Party agents not to remove their opponents' names from the register. It would be, their object to keep on the register people who ought to come off. It would be to their advantage to keep, lists of those people who were on the register, and who thought they were not, and to send the lists to Party, agents in, other divisions where the people resided. The Party agent could then go to an elector and point out to him that he had 106 a qualification somewhere else, and that if he went to the poll he would do so knowing that he was committing a breach of the law. The Bill would lead to a very great increase of political machinations. At present in cities which had a number of electoral divisions, voters who had qualifications in more than one division selected that in which his vote was most useful to the Party to which he belonged. It seemed to him if this Bill were passed there would be general associations of agents meeting to discuss among themselves where they would prefer certain electors to vote. In that way it was quite possible that in a few years they might have the appalling result of two Liberal Members representing the City of London.
MR. STANLEY WILSON (Yorkshire, E.R., Holderness)said he could not agree that the Government had rushed into this measure without knowing in the slightest degree what they were doing. They knew perfectly well what they were doing. They knew they were going to disqualify many of their political opponents. That was their principal object. In spite of all the Amendments the right hon. Gentleman had accepted, he objected as much as ever to the Bill. It was absolutely unworkable. Why could not the Government, if they wished to establish the principle of one man one vote, bring in a simple measure of one clause of five or six lines, instead of having one of the most complicated measures ever introduced dealing with registration? The clause would impose a great additional burden upon the shoulders of political agents, and throw heavy additional expenses upon unfortunate Parliamentary candidates. The right hon. Member for East Worcestershire had said that the right hon. Gentleman had always been in favour of decreasing instead of in creasing Parliamentary election expenses. He agreed, but why had the Party opposite brought in a Bill which instead of decreasing these election expenses would have the effect of considerably, increasing them? There was one aim and object of the Bill, and, one only. It was to disqualify, if possible, the owner of property. Why was it? It was because the majority of such Owners were supporters of the Party sitting on the Opposition benches. 107 For that reason, he should vote against the clause.
§ * MR. S. COLLINS (Lambeth, Kennington)repudiated the assertion that the question of plural voting had not come before the electors at the last general election. In his own constituency he had strongly urged the abolition of plural voting; and he believed that nearly all Liberal candidates had also advocated it. His own opinion was that the Government had let the plural voter down very gently. They had all heard of the absent-minded beggar, and if they might form an opinion from the speeches of hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House the plural voter must be a very absent-minded person indeed. He thought the Government must have had the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London in their mind when they brought in the Bill. They rejected the residential qualification and provided for a selection of constituency probably because they wanted to retain the services of the hon. Baronet. He strongly maintained that the question of plural voting was one of the principal planks in the platform of Liberal candidates at the last election.
§ MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH (Derbyshire, W.)said he agreed to a certain extent with the hon. Member for the Kennington Division as to the question of "one man one vote" having been one of the reforms put before the electors by some hon. Members at the last general election, and that the Government had felt themselves bound to translate into an Act of Parliament pledges which otherwise might be regarded as a very satisfactory electioneering dodge. He thought they could commiserate with hon. Gentlemen opposite in having to go through political penances in the effort to translate their platform promises into Acts of Parliament. He wished to ask the First Com missioner of Works whether there was anything in the provisions of the Bill to meet the point put by his hon. friend the Member for the Tewkesbury Division. He himself at the last election tried to get all the voters who had left his constituency 108 to come back and record their votes. That was a reasonable and justifiable thing to do. He wrote to several gentle men and they all declared that they ought not to be on the register. But they were then and were still on the register. After the passing of this Bill, if they neglected to have their names struck off the list those men would be absolutely disfranchised. The right hon. Gentle man had said that that was not intended. He did not know whether there was any means of removing the names from the register. Another objection to this clause was that it would lead to an immense amount of log-rolling and the creation of political machinery which was undesirable. He confessed that he himself possessed three faggot votes, and it was obvious that under this clause he would have to give them up. But no doubt he would find some persons who were not possessed of a vote to whom he could hand them over. If that could be done in the case of a small estate it was bound to be done in big cases. That would lead to an immense amount of political contriving which it had been the object of both political Parties to avoid in the past. How ever useful the Bill might be as a Party cry, he thought that the discussions had shown that it was unworkable, cumbrous, and useless. He appealed to the Government at the last moment to attempt to transform the Bill into a more workmanlike measure.
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid that with the permission of the House he would like to reply to a question put by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury. That hon. Gentleman had asked what would happen if a voter, not knowing that he was on more than one register, went to the poll and voted without having made a selection. The elector did not knowingly contravene the Act when he voted, and therefore he would not be liable to any penalty or to proceedings being taken against him. There was the other alternative that if he discovered a few days before the poll that he had a dual qualification he had an easy method of making his selection effectual. In no case would he be disfranchised.
§ Sir WILLIAM BULL (Hammersmith)thought that the object which the Government said they wished to attain could have been secured by a much simpler method than that embodied in this clause. He could think of nothing more cumbrous. To have taken all the elections on one day would have practically effected the object in view. He firmly believed that if the Bill became law on its present lines, an amending Bill would have to be brought in as soon as possible to meet the points which had not been fully discussed. In theory the machinery provided by the Bill hung well together, but he was perfectly certain that in practice it would work out entirely differently from what the right hon. Gentleman expected. It would result in an immense amount of wire pulling and gerrymandering, and there would be squabbling amongst political agents as to where a particular contest should take place. The expense, too, would be very great indeed. He doubted whether the right hon. Gentleman was right in thinking there would not be many cases where persons had to go to the Court. The recent "latch-key" decision had led in his own constituency to an additional cost of £55 for registration; and it could be imagined how registration expenses would be increased all over the country.
§ Mr. T. L. CORBETT (Down, N.)said that he unexpectedly found himself a few years ago in the position of being I a plural voter. He was a voter in London and only discovered by having a polling card sent to him that he was a
§ voter in Essex. As his hon. friend had pointed out very clearly, the opposition agent might come to him the day before the poll at an election and say that, as he was on two registers and he could not then make a selection, he could not give a vote at all. That was one of the most effective points against the Bill. [Ironical Ministerial laughter.] It came very ill from hon. Members opposite to jeer at the very clear case which had been put by the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment and which the right hon. Gentleman himself would acknowledge involved a real injustice. The case was where a man found himself unexpectedly on two registers.
§ * MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member is not entitled to repeat his argument.
§ Mr. T. L. CORBETTsaid he thought hon. Gentlemen opposite had not appreciated his argument. It was very clear, it seemed to him, that where a man unexpectedly found that he was entitled to two votes it would be very hard if the agent of the opposite Party—
§ * MR. SPEAKEROrder, order! The hon. Gentleman is repeating almost verbatim what he has already said, and is, therefore, violating the rule against needless repetition.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 336; Noes, 74. (Division List No. 444.)
113| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Bowerman, C. W. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Barnard, E. B. | Brace, William |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Barnes, G. N. | Bramsdon, T. A. |
| Agnew, George William | Barran, Rowland Hirst | Branch, James |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Beale, W. P. | Brigg, John |
| Alden, Percy | Beauchamp, E. | Bright, J. A. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B.(Hexhm) | Brocklehurst, W. B. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Beck, A. Cecil | Brodie, H. C. |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Bellairs, Carlyon | Brooke, Stopford |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Benn, W.(T'w'r'H'mlets, S. Geo.) | Brunner, J.F.L.(Lanes., Leigh) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Bennett, E. N. | Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen) |
| Astbury, John Meir | Bertram, Julius | Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd) | Burke, E. Haviland |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Billson, Alfred | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire) | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas. |
| Barker, John | Boland, John | Byles, William Pollard |
| Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset) | Boulton, A. C. F.(Ramsey) | Cairns, Thomas |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Marnham, F. J. |
| Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick | Hart-Davies, T. | Massie, J. |
| Chance, Frederick William | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Meagher, Michael |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Haworth, Arthur A. | Menzies, Walter |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Hayden, John Patrick | Mond, A. |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Clarke, C. Goddard | Helme, Norval Watson | Mooney, J. J. |
| Cleland, J. W. | Hemmerde, Edward George | Morley, Rt. Hon. John |
| Clough, William | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Morse, L. L. |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Henry, Charles S. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) | Murray, James |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Myer, Horatio |
| Cooper, G. J. | Higham, John Sharp | Napier, T. B. |
| Corbett, C.H(Sussex, E. Grinst'd) | Hobart, Sir Robert | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Nicholls, George |
| Cory, Clifford John | Hodge, John | Nicholson. Chas. N. (Doncast'r) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Hogan, Michael | Nolan, Joseph |
| Cowan, W. H. | Holland, Sir William Henry | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Cox, Harold | Hooper, A. G. | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Crean, Eugene | Horniman, Emslie John | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid) |
| Cremer, William Randal | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Crombie, John William | Hudson, Walter | O'Connor. John (Kildare, N.) |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Hyde, Clarendon | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Crossley, William J. | Idris, T. H. W. | O'Donnell. C. J. (Walworth) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | O'Donnell. John (Mayo, S.) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Jenkins, J. | O'Dowd, John |
| Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Hare, Patrick |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jones, SirD.Brynmor(Swansea) | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Malley, William |
| Dickinson, W. H.(St. Pancras, N.) | Jowett, F. W. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Joyce, Michael | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Kekewich, Sir George | Partington, Oswald |
| Dillon, John | Kelley, George D. | Paul, Herbert |
| Duffy, William J. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall) | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Edwards, Frank (Radnor) | Laidlaw, Robert | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Elibank, Master of | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Lambert, George | Pollard, Dr. |
| Erskine, David C. | Lamont, Norman | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) |
| Essex, R. W. | Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.) | Price, Robt. John (Norfolk, E.) |
| Evans, Samuel T. | Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington) | Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.) |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich) | Radford, G. H. |
| Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Levy, Maurice | Rainy, A. Rolland |
| Fenwick, Charles | Lewis, John Herbert | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Ferens, T. R. | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Lough, Thomas | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Findlay, Alexander | Lundon, W. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Rees, J. D. |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lyell, Charles Henry | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Freeman-Thomas, Freeman | Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs) | Renton, Major Leslie |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n.) |
| Fullerton, Hugh | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Richardson, A. |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Macpherson, J. T. | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Gill, A. H. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.) | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Ginnell, L. | MacVeigh, Chas; (Donegal, E.) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | M'Callum, John M. | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) |
| Glendinning, R. G. | M'Crae, George | Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Robertson, J. M, (Tyneside) |
| Gooch, George Peabody | M'Kenna, Reginald | Robinson, S. |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | M'Killop, W. | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Gulland, John W. | M'Laren, H. D.(Stafford, W.) | Bogers, F. E. Newman |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Mickine, Major G. | Rose, Charles Day |
| Hall, Frederick, | Maddison, Frederick | Rowlands |
| Halpin, J. | Mallet, Charles E. | Runciman, Walter |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | Manfield, Harry(Northants) | Rutherford, V. H.(Brenford) |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Marts, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Samuel, Herbert L.(Clevelland) |
| Scott, A. H.(Ashton-under-Lyne) | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Sears, J. E. | Thomasson, Franklin | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Seaverns, J. H. | Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Seddon, J. | Tillett, Louis John | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Seely, Major J. B. | Tomkinson, James | Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer |
| Shackleton, David James | Torrance, Sir A. M. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) | Toulmin, George | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Williams, Osmund (Merioneth) |
| Silcock, Thomas Ball | Ure, Alexander | Wilson, Hn. C. H.W.(Hull, W.) |
| Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Vivian, Henry | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Wadsworth, J. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Wallace, Robert | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Spicer, Sir Albert | Walsh, Stephen | Winfrey, R. |
| Stanger, H. Y. | Walters, John Tudor | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) | Young, Samuel |
| Steadman, W. C. | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Straus, B. S. (Mile End) | Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton) | |
| Sullivan, Donal | Wardle, George J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Summerbell, T. | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | |
| Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney) | |
| Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Watt, H. Anderson | |
| Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Ashley, W. W. | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Nield, Herbert |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond.) | Du Cros, Harvey | Percy, Earl |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Duncan; Robert (Lanark, Gov'n) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Faber, George Denison (York) | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Fardell, Sir T. George | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Fell, Arthur | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Hamilton, Marquess of | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury S. Edmds.) | Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Houston, Robert Paterson | Starkey, John R. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Cave, George | Kimber, Sir Henry | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W. | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Turnour, Viscount |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareh'm) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore.) | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. Col. A. R. | Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Londsale, John Brownlee | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Younger, George |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Magnus, Sir Philip | |
| Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Lord Balcarres. |
| Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Moore, William |
§ MR. FELL moved to insert before the word "person" the word "lawfully," which would make the clause apply only to an elector "lawfully" registered. He could not conceive that there would be any objection to the Amendment.
§ SIR FREDERICK BANBURY, in seconding, said the Amendment was designed to meet the case of a man who was on two registers but was only entitled to be on one. A man might leave one constituency and go to another and not satisfy the 114 overseers that he had left, and it was nobody's interest to take him off the list. Therefore he would remain on the register for the residence he had left, say, at Yarmouth, and would be unable to vote in another: place, say in Middlesex, to which he had moved. The Amendment seemed a simple way out of the difficulty. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman's' new clause would meet the point, and enable a man to vote in another constituency if he were on the register for, the place he had left. It would be very difficult for an elector to inquire into the matter.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 5, after the word 'person' to insert the word 'lawfully.'"—(Mr. Fell.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'lawfully' be there inserted in the Bill."
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid he should not think of arguing that his new clause met a point which it was not necessary to meet. It was assumed that a man who was on the register was lawfully entitled to vote, although there were certain exceptions made, such as aliens, lunatics, peers, and women. It seemed to him that if this word were inserted the only effect would be that the alien or the lunatic who managed to get on a number of different registers would get an opportunity of voting. The word was absolutely unnecessary.
§ Question put, and negatived.
§ MR. COURTHOPE (Sussex, Rye) moved an Amendment restricting the application of the Bill to persons registered "for the first time after the passing of this Act" in more than one constituency. He said his object was to to take away from the Bill what he might call its retrospective nature—to obviate the destruction of existing electoral rights. He thought it would be much more reasonable to say to an elector who, subsequently to the passing of the Act, obtained a second qualification, "You shall not obtain a right to a second vote," but to destroy an existing right and take from him what he now enjoyed, owing to no fault of his own, and to impose upon him responsibilities and liabilities by virtue of what up to the present had merely been a right and a privilege, was a manifest injustice. It was not as if this Bill were proposing to carry out a great electoral reform. They were not reforming the system; they were not establishing the principle of one man one vote or of one vote one value; they were not doing away with the property qualification and making the electoral qualification one of manhood or of womanhood or of both; and until and unless a measure was introduced doing away with all anomalies instead of only one anomaly in our electoral system it was manifestly 116 preferable that the rights at present enjoyed should be maintained. The Bill did away with one anomaly and one only. It attacked the position of one class of voter and one class only. He thought that to rob the voter of the right he now enjoyed and to place him in a distinctly worse position than a man who had only one qualification was an injustice which ought not to be inflicted upon those who already possessed more than one vote. Another point in support of his Amendment was that the Bill or anything approaching it was apparently not contemplated before the general election. At all events it was not placed before the country, and the authority of the electors had certainly not been given to such a Bill, and so far as he could gather there was not the slightest intention, if the Bill passed, to go to the country on the subject. He would not argue the precedents of the Reform Bills; they were within everybody's memory, but he held that until the country had expressed a desire to give authority to the Government to do away with exercisable rights under our existing electoral system, the Government of the day should confine their measures to rights acquired in the future. The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill had told them over and over again that this was not a disfranchising Bill. But although it was not a disfranchising Bill, in certain circum stances which would constantly arise it would say to a man, "Although you are not disfranchised you may not vote, or you may not vote without incurring very grave penalties." That to his mind was very much the same as saying to a man, "You are temporarily disfranchised for the purposes of this election." If the right hon. Gentleman was sincere in saying that the Bill would not have a disfranchising effect he could easily carry out that intention by con fining its provisions to future qualifications. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not, because they raised this point, accuse him or his hon. friends of ingratitude for the concessions they had received. He thoroughly recognised and appreciated the efforts which the right hon. Gentleman had made to which attention had been drawn to meet difficulties. 117 But this was a question of principle, and on that question the right hon. Gentle man and his colleagues had not given way one inch. He thought he was justified in urging the House seriously to consider the question of what he might call the retrospective nature of the Bill, which inflicted an injustice on existing plural voters by robbing them of rights they at present enjoyed and, in addition, placing upon their shoulders the burden of new responsibilities.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 5, after the word 'registered' to insert the words 'for the first time after the passing of this Act.'"—(Mr. Courthope.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid the Amendment applied the provisions of the Bill only to new voters who came on the register as pluralists after the passing of this Bill. That, of course, would cut out all the plural voters who existed at this moment, to whom the hon. Member did not wish the Bill to apply, but to whom the Government intended it should apply. It was not the first time this change had been advocated. It was discussed in Committee, but as he (Mr. Harcourt) then pointed out, this was not a franchise, but a machinery Bill, and therefore the saving clauses sought to be inserted were not applicable. Even if the procedure were acceptable to the Government, it would be practically impossible to give effect to it. How was it to be shown on the register year after year who were pluralists at the date of the passing of the Bill? They would have to maintain a list for an entirely new class of voters, namely, those who had been pluralists before the passing of the Act. The ambiguity of the language of the Amendment it was not necessary to discuss in detail, because by this time the hon. Member would have appreciated the fact that he did not intend to accept it. As the hon. Member had stated, this was a question of principle, 118 and although the Government had been anxious to meet hon. Members opposite in all matters of machinery, they had no intention of giving up the principle of the Bill.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that having just stated that he did not intend to give any concession to the Opposition or to make any attempt to meet their wishes on the question of principle, the right hon. Gentleman ought not to be surprised if in. their turn the Opposition felt obliged to press these points again and again upon the House. The right hon. Gentleman had with his tact and good temper done wonders in the way in which he had pioneered this Bill through the House. But by calling it a machinery Bill could not make it otherwise than it was. It was not a franchise Bill; it was a disfranchising Bill, and the appeal the Opposition now made was that this disfranchising provision should be established only with regard to future qualifications, leaving any man now on the register his existing right to vote. It was easy for a Minister to criticise the phrasing of an Amendment drawn by a private Member without the expert assistance of the Government draughtsman, but if the principle were accepted it would be easy for the right hon. Gentleman to put the words into a more satisfactory shape. All he understood his hon. friend to desire was to preserve to the existing owner of a double qualification his right to vote. The right hon. Gentleman said that the proposal in any shape was impracticable; he himself did not think so. But would this Bill work? Did the right hon. Gentle man really think he had really produced a workable measure? He would be sorry to say anything that would cast even a moment's gloom over the right hon. Gentleman's satisfaction at his first Parliamentary bantling, but if the Bill was read with the proposed machinery hon. Members would agree that it was the sort of Bill that one might expect to be passed by a local debating society but never by this House.
§ Question put.
120§ The House divided:—Ayes, 76; Noes, 357. (Division List No. 445.)
123| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F. | Doughty, Sir George | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Du Cros, Harvey | Percy, Earl |
| Balcarres, Lord | Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Faber, George Denison (York) | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond.) | Fardell, Sir T. George | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Fell, Arthur | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Fletcher, J. S. | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hamilton, Marquess of | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury S. Edm'ds) | Smith. Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Starkey, John R. |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hills, J. W. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Houston, Robert Paterson | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Cave, George | Kimber, Sir Henry | Turnour, Viscount |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W. | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareh'm) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Worc) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Wyndham, Rt. Hon George |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Younger, George |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | |
| Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Courthope and Sir Frederick Banbury. |
| Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) | Moore, William | |
| Dixon, Sir Daniel | Morpeth, Viscount | |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Nield, Herbert | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire) | Cobbold, Felix Thornley |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Boland, John | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.) |
| Agnew, George William | Bowerman, C. W. | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Brace, William | Corbett, C. H.(Sussex, E Grinstd) |
| Alden, Percy | Bramsdon, T. A. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Branch, James | Cory, Clifford John |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Brigg, John | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Bright, J. A. | Cowan, W. H. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Cox, Harold |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Brodie, H. C. | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |
| Astbury, John Meir | Brooke, Stopford | Crean, Eugene |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs., Leigh) | Cremer, William Randal |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Ches.) | Crombie, John William |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Bryce. Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen) | Crosfield, A. H. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Bryce, J. A.(Inverness Burghs) | Crossley, William J. |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) |
| Barker, John | Burke, E. Haviland- | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas. | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Byles, William Pollard | Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N) |
| Beale, W. P. | Cairns, Thomas | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Beauchamp, E. | Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B.(Hexhm) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Dillon, John |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Cawley, Sir Frederick | Duffy, William J. |
| Benn, W.(T'w'rH'mlets, S. Geo.) | Chance, Frederick William | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) |
| Bennett, E. N. | Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall) |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Cheetham, John Frederick | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) |
| Bertram, Julius | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Edwards, Enoch(Hanley) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H.(Essex, Romf'rd) | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Edwards, Frank (Radnor) |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Clarke, C. Goddard, | Elibank, Master of |
| Billson, Alfred | Cleland, J. W. | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Clough, William | Erskine, David C. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James | Paul, Herbert |
| Essex, R. W. | Laidlaw, Robert | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Evans, Samuel T. | Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Lambert, George | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Lamont, Norman | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal W.) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Fenwick, Charles | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Ferens, T. R. | Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.) | Pollard, Dr. |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Findlay, Alexander | Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich) | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Levy, Maurice | Price, Robt. John (Norfolk, E.) |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lewis, John Herbert | Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.) |
| Freeman-Thomas, Freeman | Lloyd-George, t. Hon. David | Radford, G. H. |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Lough, Thomas | Rainy, A. Rolland |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Lundon, W. | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Lupton, Arnold | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Gill, A. H. | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Ginnell, L. | Lyell, Charles Henry | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Lynch, H. B. | Rees, J. D. |
| Glendinning, R. G. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Renton, Major Leslie |
| Gooch, George Peabody | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n) |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Macpherson, J. T. | Richardson, A. |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Gulland, John W. | M'Callum, John M. | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Crae, George | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) |
| Hall, Frederick | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd) |
| Halpin, J. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | M'Killop, W. | Robinson, S. |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | M'Micking, Major G. | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | Maddison, Frederick | Rose, Charles Day |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Mallet, Charles E. | Rowlands, J. |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Runciman, Walter |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Marnham, F. J. | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Scott, A. H.(Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Massie, J. | Sears, J. E. |
| Holme, Norval Watson | Masterman, C. F. G. | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Meagher, Michael | Seddon, J. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Menzies, Walter | Seely, Major J. B. |
| Henderson, J. M.(Aberdeen, W.) | Mond, A. | Shackleton, David James |
| Henry, Charles S. | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) |
| Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) | Mooney, J. J. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Morley, Rt. Hon. John | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Higham, John Sharp | Morrell, Philip | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Morse, L. L. | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Hodge, John | Murray, James | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Hogan, Michael | Myer, Horatio | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Holland, Sir William Henry | Napier, T. B. | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Hooper, A. G. | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset N.) | Nicholls, George | Steadman, W. C. |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Nicholson, Chas. N (Doncast'r) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Nolan, Joseph | Sullivan, Donal |
| Hudson, Walter | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Summerbell, T. |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Idris, T. H. W. | Nuttall, Harry | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Jackson, R. S. | O'Brien, Kendal Tipperary, Mid | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Jardine, Sir J. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Jenkins, J. | O'Doherty, Philip | Thompson, J. W. H.(Somerset, E.) |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Tillett, Louis John |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Tomkinson, James |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Dowd, John | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Jowett, F. W. | O'Hare, Patrick | Toulmin, George |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Kekewich, Sir George | O'Kelly, James(Roscommon N.) | Ure, Alexander |
| Kelley, George D. | O'Malley, William | Vivian, Henry |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Wadsworth, J |
| Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Parker, James (Halifax) | Walker, H. de R. (Leicester) |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Partington, Oswald | Walsh, Stephen |
| Walters, John Tudor | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Winfrey, R. |
| Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Wardle, George J. | Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer | Young, Samuel |
| Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | Wiles, Thomas | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | |
| Waterlow, D. S. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Watt, H. Anderson | Wilson, Hon. C. H. W.(Hull, W.) | |
| Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) | |
| Whitbread, Howard | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) | |
| White, George (Norfolk) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
§ MR. COURTHOPE moved to insert after "Parliamentary elector" the words "in respect of ownership," with the view of confining the scope of the clause to qualification founded on ownership. As in the last case, he did not in the least anticipate that the Government would give way on this point, but he felt it was incumbent upon him to press it, because he thought the Bill, without some such Amendment as this, would produce a very great anomaly which went against many cherished ideas of our constitutional system as regarded the electoral basis on which our elections were run. The effect would be that a person who had a stake in the country by way of property in a different place from that where he had a stake in respect of residence or occupation would not by this Bill be deprived of the right of exercising one vote in respect of that property. The Amendment was in the interests of a very large and important class of business men, traders, manufacturers, and so on, who had very large stakes in the country apart and very often long distances from their residences. It seemed strange that men who were in many cases the largest taxpayers and ratepayers in a district, who owned the most important interests there, should be deprived of their right to a voice in the representation of that district unless they sacrificed their right to vote on their residential qualification. It would be different if Parliament were reforming the electoral basis, but they were not. They still said that because a man owned property of a certain value, he had a qualification, and because he occupied property of a certain value he also had a qualification, and yet when he had both these qualifications he had to select one of them. He did not think that was reasonable. It might be reasonable to say if a man 124 had a property qualification he should only have one vote in that respect. He would still be entitled to some representation for the property he had at stake in the country; but as the Bill stood now he had to lose one or the other. He would be able to vote in respect of the property he owned or in respect of the property he occupied. That was illogical and unreasonable. He hoped the House would give this matter consideration. He knew quite well that it was brought up in Committee and rejected, but he did not entirely despair that the right hon. Gentleman might find it possible to adopt this or some similar Amendment.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 5, after the word 'elector' to insert the words 'in respect of ownership.'" —(Mr. Courthope.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid this was a proposal which he could not accept, as the Bill was directed against plural voting generally, and not merely plural voting which arose from ownership. The object of the Bill was to put an end to plural voting, no matter from what source the qualifications were derived. The anxiety of the Opposition for the plural voter was apparently concerned more with the occupation of land than with any other qualification.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINdemurred to the statement that the interest of the Opposition in the plural voter was confined to the case in which he was voting in respect of the possession of land. In previous debates he had laid stress on the case of the 125 plural voter who had his business premises in one place and his house in another, it being unnecessary to own land at all. He had always contended that where a man was substantially associated by ownership with the life and welfare of two places it was hard to say that he should not vote for the Member of Parliament for both of these places. His interests in the two localities might be divergent, or of such a nature that representation by a single Member of the House of Commons would be inadequate.
§ MAJOR SEELY (Liverpool, Abercromby)said the view of the right hon. Gentleman was—one rich man, two votes; one poor man, one vote.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINasked why the hon. Gentleman supposed that everyone who came under the description of owner of property was a rich man? A large number of shopkeepers, who wore not rich, would come under this Amendment.
§ MAJOR SEELYreplied that the terms "rich" and "poor" were always used relatively. The right hon. Gentleman proposed that a man who had business premises in one place and resided in another should have two votes. Why did he not propose that a workman who lived in one constituency and worked in another should also have two votes? In truth, residence and manhood were the only proper qualifications for the franchise.
§ SIR E. CARSON (Dublin University)congratulated the hon. and gallant Gentle man on having broken through the conspiracy of silence entered into by the occupants of the back Ministerial Benches. If every man might vote for the 670 Members of the House of Commons, and there was no question of local interests involved, he would agree that each man ought to have only one vote. But did anyone suppose that local interests had nothing to do with the exercise of the franchise in this country? He instanced the case of Kidderminster, where there was a particular kind of interest which they wished to have represented in the House of Commons. Let some hon. Members opposite go down to Kidderminster and inform the electors 126 that in the interest of equality of votes they ought to have their power taken away, and allow their own local interest to be swamped by a number of farmers who were not interested in the particular industry of Kidderminster. They would then very soon find out what the electors of Kidderminster thought of the right of returning a representative interested in local matters. Was it fair in case an Irishman happened to be living in England and possessed property in Ireland that he should be prevented from having any voice in the selection of the representative of the locality in which his property was situated? The truth of the matter was that in fairness or logic, so long as they recognised that particular districts and particular interests should be represented in this House, they could not argue that voters with interests in two constituencies should vote only in one.
§ * THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir JOHN WALTON, Leeds, S.)said there were so many anomalies in connection with the existing state of the law that it was quite refreshing to hear that the right hon. and learned Gentleman had been able to produce an argument in support of what he should have thought was one of its most glaring defects. What was the amazing proposition which his right hon. friend asked the House to adopt? He said that the issue submitted to the electors varied according to the locality in which they resided; that there might be different issues presented in Scotland, the English provinces, and the Metropolitan area, and a voter holding qualifications in all these parts of the country might logically record one vote for a Conservative, another for a Liberal, and a third for a Labour candidate, so that the mere question of local association or locality might be perfectly consistent with those votes which neutralised each other. Was it seriously contended that the issues on which hon. Members were returned to this House were not Imperial issues? Was it seriously contended that they varied, having regard to the locality in which the voters were interested?
§ SIR E. CARSONasked whether the hon. and learned Gentleman meant to say that in a mining district miners, when they voted, were merely moved by Imperial issues.
§ * SIR JOHN WALTONsaid they were moved by Imperial issues. He could quite understand that a man might be in favour of a county council of one complexion in one county and of a county council of a different complexion in another county, because he might take the view that politics had no proper place in local government, and that the recognition of political alliances by those who managed local affairs Was a disturbing and not a moderating and legitimate influence. But when they came to consider the issue on which an appeal was being made to the country by the Government responsible for that appeal, was there anybody who said that a voter would be justified, when discharging his duty as a citizen, in disregarding the grounds on which the appeal was made, putting the Imperial issue aside, and exercising the franchise having regard to some small and petty question connected with his own trade? He did not say that such conduct did not take place, because men were influenced by such considerations, but he did say that it was not legitimate. Let them take those public spirited gentlemen who occupied the imagination of his right hon. and learned friend. A man in Durham would cast, say, a Conservative vote and send a Member to Parliament to support the Conservative Party and to use his utmost influence in defeating Liberal measures; but the same man voting in Yorkshire where no disturbing colliery interest came into play, would have regard to the bearing of the Imperial issue and cast his vote for the Liberal.
§ SIR E. CARSONThat is not my argument.
§ * SIR JOHN WALTONsaid he under stood the right hon. and learned Gentle man to say that a man might advance in one county principles which in another county he had been opposing. That reduced the whole system of the constitution to confusion. The right hon. and learned Gentleman might mean that there were men who would sacrifice the Imperial issue on which they were invited to vote, because they desired that some small trade issue should be pressed at the expense of the community of which they formed a part. The position of such an elector would be difficult to defend, and he ought not to be protected 128 by the provisions of our legislation. What ever might be said in favour of plural: voting, it was pretty clear that it was not defensible on the ground that a person with four qualifications should exercise his vote from Imperial considerations in one constituency and from merely local considerations in another. The issue to be considered was the same whatever the locality, and he wished to protest against the argument that a plurality of votes was defensible on the ground that the possessor of them was morally justified in voting in favour of one set of principles and one body of statesmen in one constituency and against the same principles and statesmen in another.
§ MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON (Lanark, N.W.)said the hon. and learned Gentle man had set up a man of straw for the purpose of demolishing him. They all knew that in different constituencies different questions were thrown into greater or less relief. Would hon. Gentlemen opposite deny that? The thing had been proved over and over again this session by the fact that hon. Gentlemen opposite had in all sincerity got up in their places and assured the House in regard to half a dozen questions that they had received a special mandate from the constituencies. In some parts of the country the issue was said to have been Chinese labour, while in other parts it was contended that the chief question was Home Rule or education. The representation of the locality was a most important factor in the political composition of the House. Their chief complaint against this Bill was that for the first time in the history of the country the Government said there should be taxation without representation.
§ MR. MOND (Chester)pointed out that Imperial taxation was one thing and local taxation another. The fact that a man owned shares on which he paid Imperial tax in London, and that he had property in Wales and in other parts of the country on which he paid land tax, did not make him an Imperial taxpayer more than once. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches were confusing local and Imperial taxation. The Ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer had pleaded for local interest, and the right hon. the Ex-Solicitor-General had urged that 129 the man with two votes would be able to give one for the Empire, and the other for the carpet factory, the hardware warehouse, or the sausage shop. Who talked now about the village pump? Where was the Party with Imperial aims? Where were the Little Englanders? They were not on the Ministerial side of the House. The argument of his hon. friend the Member for Abercromby that work was of more importance than wealth had been misunderstood. He only referred to the case of a man who worked in one place, and lived in another; and it had been overlooked that a man could only vote once in a borough election, although that division might be divided into several constituencies, and he had property in each. Hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches were fighting very hard to retain some of their most cherished privileges.
§ LORD E. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)said that they were greatly indebted to hon. Gentlemen for having raised this question which was of more than passing interest. It was for hon. Members to consider whether they desired to reduce the House of Commons to a condition which would encourage the Government to resort to the guillotine on every possible occasion. The Amendment was of great interest from a constitutional point of view. The Attorney-General's proposition was that every voter at an election voted on what he called an Imperial issue. That was an imaginary issue. He thought it would puzzle the hon. and learned Gentleman to say what an Imperial issue was.
§ SIR JOHN WALTONsaid that he did not mean Imperial in the sense of something which affected the Empire as a whole, but Imperial as distinguished from local.
§ LORD R. CECILsaid it could not be alleged that there was a definite Imperial issue submitted to the country at every general election. It must be a mixed issue of Imperial and local questions. The point the elector would consider was whether he should vote for a Labour candidate, a Liberal candidate, a 130 Tory candidate, or a Nationalist candidate. But there was also the consideration of the personality of the candidate, and whether he would in fact represent the constituency from a larger and Imperial point of view. He thought that electors were well advised when they gave due weight to a man who had lived his life in the locality, and whose character they admired, who stood against a gentleman from London, sent down by the Party organisation, having no interest in the locality, who might be a fluent and ready speaker, but who, in fact, was a "carpet-bagger." If that were so, it was right that the House should preserve the element of locality in the representation of the country. That argument seemed to him to be unanswerable, and the moment the element of locality was admitted, it was likewise admitted that the principle of this Bill was wrong. The hon. and gallant Member for the Abercromby division had used an argument likely to attract a great deal of popular sympathy, viz., that they on the Opposition side of the House were striving to preserve the privilege of the rich as against the poor. Of course, that was the stock in trade of hon. Gentle men opposite. It was said that the Liberal candidate at Huddersfield was the friend of the poor, and that the Tory and Labour candidates were not. They were not now remodelling the franchise legislation of the country. He had protested constantly against these miserable efforts to alter one feature of it which had been a disadvantage to one party—to deal with one anomaly, without dealing with other anomalies. The question he had to consider was whether within the limits of this Bill they were going to say that the element of locality should have no influence. It might be that in asserting the principle of locality they would in fact do more good to the rich than to the poor; but that was not their fault. Their desire was simply to enforce the principle of locality. If the hon. Member for the Abercromby division introduced a Bill to give an extra vote to the working man who lived away from his work, he would give it his impartial consideration. He saw a great deal to recommend it on principle, but until he had such a Bill in print before him he should hesitate to say how it could be carried 131 out. It was not because plural rotes were held by the richer classes that they wished to retain them, but because they were genuinely anxious to preserve, if they could, the element of locality on which hitherto our electoral system had been founded. He had no
§ hesitation whatever in supporting the Amendment.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 67: Noes, 337. (Division List No. 446.)
135| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F. | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Doughty, Sir George | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Percy Earl |
| Balcarres, Lord | Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond.) | Faber, George Denison (York) | Remnant, James Farquharson. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Fell, Arthur | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Fletcher, J. S. | Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hamilton, Marquess of | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury, S Edmd's) | Starkey, John R. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Houston, Robert Paterson | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Kimber, Sir Henry | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Cave, George | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W. | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E) | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Younger, George |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Worc) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Courthope and Mr. Stanley Wilson. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | |
| Craig, Capt. Jas. (Down, E.) | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Moore, William | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Bowerman, C. W. | Corbett, CH.(Sussex, E.(Grinst'd) |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Brace, William | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. |
| Agnew, George William | Bramsdon, T. A. | Cowan, W. H. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Branch, James | Cox, Harold |
| Alden, Percy | Brigg, John | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Bright, J. A. | Crean, Eugene |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Cremer, William Randal |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Brooke, Stopford | Crombie, John William |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) | Crosfield, A. H. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J.T.(Chesh.) | Crossley, William J. |
| Astbury, John Meir | Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen) | Davies, David(Montgomery Co.) |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Burke, E. Haviland- | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) |
| Barker, John | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Barlow, John Emmott (S'mers't) | Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas. | Dillon, John |
| Barnard, E. B. | Byles, William Pollard | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Barnes, G. N. | Cairns, Thomas | Duffy, William J. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Beale, W. P. | Cawley, Sir Frederick | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) |
| Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B.(Hexh'm) | Chance, Frederick William | Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall) |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Cheetham, John Frederick | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) |
| Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.) | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Elibank, Master of |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward |
| Bertram, Julius | Clarke, C. Goddard | Esmonde, Sir Thomas |
| Bethell, Sir J. H.(Essex, Romfrd) | Cleland, J. W. | Essex, R. W. |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Clough, William | Evans, Samuel T. |
| Billson, Alfred | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Eve, Harry Trelawney |
| Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire) | Collins, Sir W. M. J.(S. Pancras, W) | Everett, R. Lacey |
| Boland, John | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Faber, G. H. (Boston) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Lewis, John Herbert | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Ferens, T. R. | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Lough, Thomas | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Findlay, Alexander | Lundon, W. | Rees, J. D. |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Lupton, Arnold | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lyell, Charles Henry | Renton, Major Leslie |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Lynch, H. B. | Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n) |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs) | Richardson, A. |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Gill, A. H. | Macpherson, J. T. | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Ginnell, L. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee) |
| Glendinning, R. G. | M'Callum, John M. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradfrd) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | M'Crac, George | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Gooch, George Peabody | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Robinson, S. |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | M'Kenna, Reginald | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | M'Killop, W. | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Rose, Charles Day |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Rowlands, J. |
| Gulland, John W. | M'Micking, Major G. | Runciman, Walter |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Maddison, Frederick | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Hall, Frederick | Mallet, Charles E. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Halpin, J. | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | Markham, Arthur Basil | Scott, A. H.(Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston) | Sears, J. E. |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Marnham, F. J. | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Seddon, J. |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Massie, J. | Seely, Major J. B. |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Masterman, C. F. G, | Shaekleton, David James |
| Haslam, Lewis (Momnouth) | Meagher, Michael | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Menzies, Walter | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Micklem, Nathaniel | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Mond, A. | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Mooney, J. J. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Morrell, Philip | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.) | Morse, L. L. | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Henry, Charles S. | Myer, Horatio | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) | Napier, T. B. | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Steadman, W. C. |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nicholls, George | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Nolan, Joseph | Summerbell, T. |
| Hodge, John | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Hogan, Michael | Nuttall, Harry | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Holland, Sir William Henry | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid) | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Hooper, A. G. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.) |
| Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Horniman, Emslie John | O'Doherty, Philip | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Thompson, J. W. H.(Somerset, E.) |
| Hyde, Clarendon | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Tillett, Louis John |
| Idris, T. H. W. | O'Dowd, John | Tomkinson, James |
| Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | O'Hare, Patrick | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Jackson, R. S. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Toulmin, George |
| Jardine, Sir J. | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Jenkins, J. | O'Malley, William | Ure, Alexander |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Vivian, Henry |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Partington, Oswald | Walsh, Stephen |
| Jowett, F. W. | Paul, Herbert | Walters, John Tudor |
| Joyce, Michael | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Kekewich, Sir George | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Kelley, George D. | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) | Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton) |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Wardle, George J. |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Laidlaw, Robert | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster) | Power, Patrick Joseph | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Lambert, George | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Lamont, Norman | Price, Robt. John (Norfolk E.) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.) | Whitbread, Howard |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Radford, G. H. | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.) | Rainy, A. Rolland | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Levy, Maurice | Raphael, Herbert H. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) | |
| Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Wiles, Thomas | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | |
| Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Winfrey, R. | |
| Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon | |
| Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) | Young, Samuel |
§ *MR. FELL moved to amend the clause so that it should read to the effect that a person registered as a Parliamentary elector in more than one constituency "who votes" except in the one constituency selected should come under the provisions of the Bill. He said that this was partly a drafting Amendment, although in other respects it raised a very important point by omitting the words which made it an offence for a plural voter "to ask for a ballot or voting paper." During the discussion in Committee it was pointed out how extremely onerous was the penalty inflicted upon a man who did not vote but who asked for a ballot or voting paper. Until the elector got into the polling booth and asked for this paper it might be perfectly possible for him not to be aware that he was registered in another constituency. Immediately he had obtained a ballot or voting paper, however, under this Bill he would have committed a crime for which he was liable to two years imprisonment. That was a very onerous provision. Clause 2 contained a proviso chat the presiding officer should not give into custody any person charged with personation under the Bill unless such person had actually voted, which implied that the mere asking for a voting paper made a man guilty of personation and a criminal. The clause as now drafted created a new crime, namely, that of asking for a ballot paper, and on these grounds he thought it would be clear to hon. Members that the clause as he proposed to amend it would be much more terse and would leave out the objectionable words by which a new crime was created.
§ MR. LANE-FOX (Yorkshire, W. R., Barkston Ash)seconded.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 6, to leave out from the word 'constituency' to the word 'during' in line 7, and to insert the words 'who votes.'"—(Mr. Fell.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words 'shall not vote as such,' stand part of the Bill."
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,) Fifeshire, E.said so far as he could make out, the effect of this Amendment, if it was inserted in the form proposed by the hon. Member, would be that there would be no prohibition of any sort or kind in the first part of the clause. The hon. Gentleman would have seen had he reflected a little more that there was no sense in the Amendment.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ MR. T.L. CORBETT moved to insert after the word "such," the words "at any general election." This Amendment was simply to try and make the avowed object of the Bill more clear than it was at present. As he understood it that object was to carry out the principle of one man one vote, but he feared the real object was to punish and penalise the political opponents of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. He believed the right hon. Gentleman desired to meet all reasonable suggestions, and that if he only had a free hand to accept Amendments the Bill would be put into a better shape. But the right hon. Gentleman recognised that his followers would be only too glad to accept a Bill giving penal servitude to every Unionist elector who attempted to vote. If the Bill was really aimed at carrying out the principle of one man one vote, the Amendment would afford a test of the sincerity of the right hon. Gentleman and his followers. At a general election there were a great many contests going on at the same time, which gave an opportunty to a voter so criminal as to have property in various parts to vote in more than one constituency. At a by-election it was clear that except on rare occasions there could only be one opportunity of voting, therefore it seemed a fair and reasonable proposal 137 that the principle should be maintained only at a general election. He begged to move.
§ CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid in seconding this Amendment he would like to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that enormous expense would be saved to those who had votes in several parts of the country. At a general election it would not be possible, as the clause now stood, for anyone to exercise the franchise more than once. It was also clear that considerable hardship would be placed on certain sections of voters, who at a by-election might have to travel at considerable expense from one part of the country to another to record their votes. In the first instance they might have starred themselves in a constituency very far away from that in which they found themselves when an election was sprung on them. The right hon. Gentleman's object would be fully attained by prohibiting more than one vote one man at a general election. It would save expense and trouble if plural voters were allowed to vote at by-elections. If a man had a qualification in two places, say London and Cork, and having starred for the City of London found himself in Cork at the next election, and desired to vote in Cork, it would be a great hardship if he had to go to the expense and inconvenience of crossing the Channel to record his vote in London. It would be a small concession for the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment. They were not asking for a large concession, but merely one of more or less minor importance, especially when it was considered that the probabilities were that in the whole of the United Kingdom the plural voters were very frequently plural voters for an adjoining constituency. But undoubtedly there were a fair number of those who lived in out-of-the-way parts and had business in other parts of the country, so that really, although on the face of it the Amendment seemed to be a considerable change from what the Government intended, if it were closely examined it would be found that it did not affect the vital principles of the clause. He agreed as to the necessity of safeguarding those who neglected to select their constituency, but when all safeguards had been provided and everything laid down in the 138 machinery of the Bill had been done, there was bound to be a very large section in the country districts who had neglected to do what was required of them. This was not a Party Amendment at all. It was a reasonable and fair Amendment which he thought the Government ought to adopt.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 6, after the word 'such' to insert the words 'at any general election.'" —(Mr. T. L. Corbett.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid the hon. Member who moved this Amendment stated that his point was quite clear. It was indeed. The hon. Gentleman proposed to limit the operation of the Act to a general election. [An HON. MEMBER: One man one vote. One man one vote at a general election, and one man to put in as many votes as he could at by-elections.
§ MR. T. L. CORBETTAt a by-election a man could only vote once.
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid there was more than one by-election in the life of a Parliament. This Amendment went back over the ground that had been covered so often during the Committee stage. If it were accepted they would necessarily have in a particular constituency a different electorate at a by-election from that at a general election. Hon. Members opposite for certain reasons did not think that a disadvantage, but he was sure it would not be to the advantage of the House, or of Members themselves, or of the country as a whole. He thought the Amendment was not reasonable, and he could not accept it.
§ SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid he did not see any reason why the right hon. Gentleman should not accept the Amendment. It might or it might not be that if there were a by-election, and the plural voters were allowed to vote, there would be a different electorate when the general election came round, because it might happen that all the plural voters in the constituency had starred themselves in that constituency. 139 The by-election might have taken place three or four years before the general election. Unless the Government accepted this Amendment, a great number of people would be disqualified altogether. The right hon. Gentleman had said this -was not a disfranchising Bill, and yet he refused to accept an Amendment without which the Bill could disfranchise a man at a by-election. Over and over again they had heard from members of the Ministerial Party that the most important thing a man could have was the right to vote, and yet the right hon. Gentleman refused to accept a reasonable Amendment which a would do something to prevent the
§ anomalies to which they all objected. He could not conceive any reason why the right hon. Gentleman should refuse this Amendment, unless he desired that the rich man should have no vote, while the poor man should have as many as he could get. This was a Reform Bill in the wrong direction. The Amendment did not touch the principle of the Bill, and under it no man would be able to vote twice in one year in any constituency.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 36; Noes, 282. (Division List No. 447.)
141| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F. | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan) | Starkey, John R. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fell, Arthur | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Fletcher, J. S. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hamilton, Marquess of | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hills, J. W. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Houston, Robert Paterson | |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. T. L. Corbett and Viscount Turnour. |
| Cave, George | Kimber, Sir Henry | |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lane-Fox, G. R. | |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | |
| Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Bowerman, C. W. | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Brace, William | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Bramsdon, T. A. | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Agnew, George William | Branch, James | Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Brigg, John | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Alden, Percy | Bright, J. A. | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Brooke, Stopford | Duffy, William J. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Brunner, J.F.L.(Lanes., Leigh) | Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Astbury, John Meir | Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T.(Chesh.) | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) |
| Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.) | Burke, E. Haviland- | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Elibank, Master of |
| Barker, John | Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward |
| Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset) | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Esmonde, Sir Thomas |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Byles, William Pollard | Essex, R. W. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Cairns, Thomas | Evans, Samuel T. |
| Barnes, G. N. | Chance, Frederick William | Eve, Harry Trelawney |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Everett, R. Lacey |
| Beale, W. P. | Clarke, C. Goddard | Faber, G. H. (Boston) |
| Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B.(Hexhm) | Cleland, J. W. | Fenwick, Charles |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Clough, William | Ferers, T. R. |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Findlay, Alexander |
| Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.) | Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W) | Flynn, James Christopher |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Fuller, John Michael F. |
| Bethell, Sir J. H.(Essex, Romfrd) | Corbett, CH.(Sussex, E. Grinst'd) | Fullerton, Hugh |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Gibb, James (Harrow) |
| Billson, Alfred | Cowan, W. H. | Gill, A. H. |
| Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire) | Cox, Harold | Glendinning, R. G. |
| Boland, John | Crean, Eugene | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Cremer, William Randal | Gooch, George Peabody |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) | Robinson, S. |
| Gulland, John W. | M'Calluin, John M. | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Crae, George | Rose, Charles Day |
| Hall, Frederick | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Rowlands, J. |
| Halpin, J. | M'Kean, John | Runciman, Walter |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | M'Kenna, Reginald | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | M'Killop, W. | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Scott, A. L.(Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Hart-Davies, T. | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Sears, J. E. |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | M'Micking, Major G. | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Mallet, Charles E. | Seddon, J. |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Shackleton, David James |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Markham, Arthur Basil | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) |
| Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Marnham, F. J. | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Meagher, Michael | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.) | Menzies, Walter | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Henry, Charles S. | Micklem, Nathaniel | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Mond, A. | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Higham, John Sharp | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Steadman, W. C. |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Mooney, J. J. | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Morse, L. L. | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Hodge, John | Napier, T. B. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Hogan, Michael | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Summerbell, T. |
| Hooper, A. G. | Nicholls, George | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.) | Nicholson, Charles N.(Donc'st'r) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radclifie) |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Nolan, Joseph | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Hudson, Walter | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Thomas, David Alfred(Merth'r) |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Nuttall, Harry | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Idris, T. H. W. | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid) | Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E) |
| Jackson, R. S. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Tomkinson, James |
| Jardine, Sir J. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Jenkins, J. | O'Doherty, Philip | Toulmin, George |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Vivian, Henry |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | O'Dowd, John | Wads worth, J. |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Hare, Patrick | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Jowett, F. W. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Ward, W. Dudley(South'mptn) |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.) | Wardle, George J |
| Kekewich, Sir George | O'Malley, William | Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney) |
| Kelley, George D. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Parker, James (Halifax) | Watt, H. Anderson |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Partington, Oswald | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Laidlaw, Robert | Paul, Herbert | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Lambert, George | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Lamont, Norman | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Pirie, Duncan V. | Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Power, Patrick Joseph | Wiles, Thomas |
| Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.) | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Lever, Levy A.(Essex, Harwich) | Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Levy, Maurice | Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Radford, G. H. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Raphael, Herbert H. | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Lough, Thomas | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Lundon, W. | Redmond, John E.(Waterford) | Winfrey, R. |
| Lupton, Arnold | Rees, J. D. | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Rendall, Attelstan | Young, Samuel |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Lynch, H. B. | Richardson, A. | |
| Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs) | Rickett, J. Compton | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Mackarness, Frederic C. | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | |
| Maclean, Donald | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) | |
| Macpherson, J. T. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Br'df'd) | |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
§ MR. HARMOOD-BANNER (Liverpool, Everton) moved to omit from the clause the words "or ask for a ballot or voting paper for the purpose of so voting." His object was to place the measure in the 142 same position as regarded the penalty for personation as the old Act. The Amendment brought into prominence one of the principles of the Bill which they had to fight. One of those principles was in 143 regard to the process of selection, and the other was in regard to the punishment to be imposed on a voter for contravening the provisions of the Bill. The Amendment, so far as personation was concerned, would place the offence in the same position as an offence under Section 24 of 35 and 36 Vict. chapter 33. Unless the words of the Amendment were accepted, the House should clearly understand that by this Bill they were creating a new offence. He did not know that hon. Members opposite, and hon. Members of the Labour Party and of the Irish Party below the gangway, desired that they should be parties to inventing a new crime. When at an earlier stage of the Bill he brought forward an exactly similar Amendment he was called to order and told that he had not looked into the matter, and that the penalty imposed for asking for a voting paper was exactly the same as that included in the old Act. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would now admit that the penalty was entirely different, and that when he gave that reason for preserving the clause he was acting from ignorance or inadvertence. He believed the right hon. Gentleman acted from inadvertence rather than ignorance. If he had simply accepted the clause in the old Act as to the punishment for personation the Bill would have been infinitely simpler, but, instead of doing that, be had piled up clauses and exceptions, and lengthened out what ought to have been a short measure. He ventured to think that no Member of the House would question the right of any man to go and ask for a voting paper; he did not say that he had a right to get it when he asked for it. He thought the right hon. Gentleman should still consider the question of applying the terms of the old Act so as to make it unecessary to have exceptional legislation of the kind now proposed. They had good cause to complain that a new offence had been created.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 6, to leave out the words 'or ask for a ballot or voting paper for the purpose of so voting."—(Mr. Harmood-Banner.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
144§ VISCOUNT TURNOUR (Sussex, Horsham)said the retention of the words might inflict great injustice on a perfectly innocent man who applied at a polling place for a voting paper with no intention of committing a crime. The words were not necessary for the enforcement of the principle which the right hon. Gentleman wished to carry out.
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid it was difficult to deal with the speech of the noble Lord except to say that no injury would be done by the clause as it stood. The Mover of the Amendment was a more serious observer of the law, and he had drawn a vivid picture of the unfortunate position in which the fraudulent plural voter would be placed. But no injury would be suffered by an innocent man who applied for a ballot paper without the intention of evading the provisions of the Act. He was not creating a new offence by the sub-section under discussion. An attempt to vote in two divisions of a divided borough was already the offence of personation; but even if the application of the offence of personation which he proposed were new, he thought it would be suitable and proper under this Bill. The hon. Member took exactly the same view as he did, viz., that if the Bill became law, he wished that the law should be observed and observed with the least possible friction and trouble. The hon. Gentleman, with his legal knowledge, must admit that the attempt to commit an offence was treated by the law, if not with the same severity, at all events in the same catgeory as the actual commission of the offence. Certainly in this particular case, what it was desired above all to prevent was the attempt to commit the offence. The hon. Member surely did not mean that the plural voter should be encouraged to go in to the polling booth "to try it on" and knowingly ask for a ballot paper, and then be relieved of liability for knowingly applying for a ballot paper with the intention of evading the provisions of the Act? Was he to escape punishment if the presiding officer omitted to do his duty? He was sure that that was not the hon. Gentleman's intention.
§ MR. HARMOOD-BANNERsaid the case which he had in mind was that 145 of an Innocent man who went into the polling booth just as a single voter would do, and asked for a ballot paper.
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid that he could assure the hon. Gentleman that in such a case his Amendment was absolutely un-
§ necessary. A man who had not acted with the intention of evading the Act would not be subject to any penalty.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 289; Noes, 38. (Division List No. 448.)
147| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Cowan, W. H. | Hodge, John |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Cox, Harold | Hogan, Michael, |
| Agnew, George William | Crean, Eugene | Hooper, A. G. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Cremer, William Randal | Hope, W. Bateman (Som'rst, N) |
| Alden, Percy | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Horniman, Emslie John |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Hudson, Walter |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Hyde, Clarendon |
| Armitage, R. | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Idris, T. H. W. |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Jackson, R. S. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras N) | Jenkins, J. |
| Astbury, John Meir | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) |
| Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.) | Donelan, Captain A. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Duffy, William J. | Jowett, F. W. |
| Barker, John | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Joyce, Michael |
| Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't) | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Dunne, Major E. Martin (Wals') | Kelley, George D. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Barnes, G. N. | Edwards, Frank (Radnor) | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Elibank, Master of | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Beale, W. P. | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) |
| Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B. (H'xh'm) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Lambert, George |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Essex, R. W. | Lamont, Norman |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Evans, Samuel T. | Law, Hugh A. (Donega, W.) |
| Benn, W.(T'w'r' H'ml'ts, S. Geo) | Eve, Harry Trelawney | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Everett, R. Lacey | Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) |
| Bethell, Sir J.H(Essex, R'mf'rd) | Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Lever, A Levy (Essex, Harwich) |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Fenwick, Charles) | Lever, W. H (Cheshire, Wirral) |
| Billson, Alfred | Ferens, T. R. | Levy, Maurice |
| Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire) | Findlay, Alexander | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Boland, John | Flynn, James Christopher | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsoy) | Fuller, John Michael F. | Lough, Thomas |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Fullerton, Hugh | Lundon, W. |
| Brace, William | Gibb, James (Harrow) | Lupton, Arnold |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Gill, A. H. | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Branch, James | Ginnell, L. | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Brigg, John | Glendinning, R. G. | Lynch, H. B. |
| Bright, J. A. | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Macdonald, J. M(Falkirk B'rghs) |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Gooch, George Peabody | Mackarness, Frederic C |
| Brooke, Stopford | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Maclean, Donald |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Gulland, John W. | Macpherson, J. T. |
| Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J.T. (Ches.) | Gurdon, Sir W. Bramptor | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hall, Frederick | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Halpin, J. | M'Callum, John M. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis | M'Crae, George |
| Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr T'dv'l) | M'Hugh, Patrick A. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | M'Kean, John |
| Byles, William Pollard | Hart-Davies, T. | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Cairns, Thomas | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | M'Killop, W. |
| Chance, Frederick William | Haworth, Arthur A. | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Haydea, John Patrick | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) |
| Clarke, C. Goddard | Helme, Norval Watson | M'Micking, Major G. |
| Cleland, J. W. | Hemmerde, Edward George | Mallet, Charles E. |
| Clough, William | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Manfield, Harry (Northants) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen. W.) | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras W) | Henry, Charles S. | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) |
| Corbett, CH (Sussex, E. Gr'ns'd) | Higham, John Sharp | Marnham, F. J. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hobart, Sir Robert | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Meagher, Michael |
| Menzies, Walter | Rees, J. D. | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Micklem, Nathaniel | Rendall, Athelstan | Thompson, J. W. H (Somerset, E) |
| Mond, A. | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn) | Tillett, Louis John |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Richardson, A. | Tomkinson, James |
| Mooney, J. J. | Rickett, J. Compton | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Morse, L. L. | Ridsdale, E. A. | Toulmin, George |
| Napier, T. B. | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Vivian, Henry |
| Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Nicholls, George | Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradf'rd) | Walters, John Tudor |
| Nicholson, Charles N(Doncaster) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds. S.) |
| Nolan, Joseph | Robinson, S. | Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton) |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Rogers, F. E. Newman | Wardle, George J. |
| Nuttall, Harry | Rose, Charles Day | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid) | Rowlands, J. | Waterlow, D. S. |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Runciman, Walter | Watt, H. Anderson |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| O'Dowd, John | Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| O'Hare, Patrick | Sears, J. E. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Seaverns, J. H. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N) | Seddon, J. | Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer |
| O'Malley, William | Shackleton, David James | Wiles, Thomas |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Partington, Oswald | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Paul, Herbert | Sloan, Thomas Henry | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Wilson, J. H.. (Middlesbrough) |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Soares, Ernest J. | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Stanger, H. Y. | Wilson, W. T. (Westthoughton) |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Steadman, W. C. | Winfrey, R. |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Price, C. E(Edinburgh, Central) | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) | Young, Samuel |
| Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E) | Sullivan, Donal | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford, E.) | Summerbell, T. | |
| Radford, G. H. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Raphael, Herbert H. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | |
| Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F | Duncan, Robert (Lanark Govan) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Fell, Arthur | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fletcher, J. S. | Starkey, John R. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hamilton, Marquess of | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hervey, P. W. F.(Bury SEdm'ds) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hills, J. W. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Houston, Robert Paterson | Tumour, Viscount |
| Cave, George | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kimber, Sir Henry | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | |
| Dixon, Sir Daniel | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col, A.R. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Harmood-Banner and Mr. Courthope. |
| Doughty, Sir George | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington) | |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
§ SIR FREDERICK BANBURY moved an Amendment to provide that the Bill should not come into operation until after the year 1909. He said the object of his Amendment was to post- pone the evil day, and there were many Precedents for moving such a proposal. Before the year 1909 it was to be hoped that there would be a general election, and if his Amendment were accepted they would be following a constitutional practice by not making any alteration in the franchise until after 148 a general election. That practice had been followed in the case of every alteration of the franchise from time immemorial. It was impossible to predict when a general election would come, but by inserting the words 1909 they would go far to meet the case and make the Bill in some small degree follow the precedent of all other franchise Bills. There were other reasons why he moved the Amendment, but he thought that alone was a sufficient ground for it. One of the other reasons was 149 that time was required before the Bill came into operation for it to be understood. It would be a considerable amount of time before the plural voters were seized of the fact that they would have to do certain things. His Amendment did not touch the principle of the Bill. Meanwhile time would be given for the officials to draw up proper rules and regulations, and for the disfranchised plural voters to pull themselves together and find out what they had to do to avoid two years imprisonment with hard labour. On these grounds he hoped the Government would accept the Amendment.
§ MR. HICKS BEACHseconded, and said the Amendment was a very simple one and was not in any way contradictory to the principle of the Bill. If the Government had thought the Bill was a workable measure they would not have inserted the date of 1907; they would have put in the year 1906.
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid he had brought the Bill into operation at the earliest possible date.
§ MR. HICKS BEACHsaid, if the right hon. Gentleman stated that, his argument fell to the ground, but he urged that there was no mandate from the country in regard to the Bill. He thought the Government would justify themselves and their supporters if they went to the country on this particular Bill.
§ MR. HICKS BEACHsaid that if the Deputy-Speaker ruled him out of order he would not pursue the subject further. It seemed to him that the Bill would be a somewhat difficult one to work. That it was not a simple measure was shown by the fact that it started as one of sixty lines and when finished would run to 110 lines. It would take considerable time for the electors of this country to decipher its meaning, and the clerks of the county councils and the officials ought to have as long a time as possible to study its clauses. He did not think that the Government could honestly refuse to accept the Amendment, and if they did it would prove that they were 150 afraid of going to the country on this particular measure.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 8, to leave out the word 'seven' and to insert the word 'nine.'"—(Sir Frederick Banbury.)
§ Question proposed. "That the word 'seven' stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid the hon. Baronet seemed to wish to postpone the evil day on which the Bill would come into force, but if the Bill was a good one it ought to come into force at once. If it was a had one it ought not to come into force even in 1909; in fact it ought never to come into force at all. The hon. Baronet had entered into interesting speculations as to when the election would come, and when he himself was on the benches opposite he had entered into those speculations. It was always interesting to speculate upon the time when well deserved vengeance would descend upon the heads of hon. Members who were opposed to them. If hon. Members thought that more time was necessary to bring the Bill into operation he thought they were mistaken. There was no difficulty in explaining the provisions of the Bill to the officials who would have to administer it. The hon. Baronet had said, however, that there would be a difficulty in bringing it home to the comprehension of the elector. But that was a conclusive argument for bringing the Bill into operation at once in order to accustom the hon. Baronet and his friends in the City of London to its working and so that they might understand it.
§ MR. COURTHOPEsaid he did not dwell so much on the difficulty so far as the officials were concerned. They would arrange for their duties in a very short time. But there was a class who would require time and who were deserving of consideration, namely, the Party registration agents on both sides. All who had had any personal experience of registration work admitted that this would be a complicated, difficult, and expensive measure. The Party agents would have to set up machinery in order to secure, if possible, the selection by pluralists, not only in time for the 5th September, but in the particular division where votes were most wanted. That would apply 151 to both Parties. It would take time; it would be expensive and would require the raising of funds, and he did not think any Party would be able to put the Party agents in a position to prepare for this Bill, or to act as he supposed it would he their duty, unless reasonable time was given. If the Act came into form and received the Royal assent before the end of this year, he did not think they would be able to get the machinery on either side properly working in time to get the selection made before September 5th next, and it was for that reason that he supported the Amendment.
§ * MR. CAVEdid not suppose there was anybody in the country or in the House who did not think that the machinery of this Bill was bad. Apart from that question, there were Members on both sides of the House who would agree that some change in the present system was desirable, and that at all events, with regard to the ownership vote, some limitation in the number of votes might be fairly demanded. But that change, if it
§ came, ought to come as part of a general redistribution of voting power. The reason why this Amendment was important was that if the operation of the Bill was postponed for two years it would enable the whole question of redistribution to be considered and dealt with before this Bill came into effect. Some Members only represented 2,000 or 3,000 voters, others represented 20,000. The average number represented by hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House was under 7,000, whilst those on the Opposition side represented on the average upwards of 15,000. That was certainly not a fair distribution, and he submitted that if the right hon. Gentleman was going to remedy one anomaly he ought also to attempt to remedy the other and greater anomalies of our present system. It was on these grounds that he supported the Amendment.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 297; Noes, 45. (Division List, No. 449.)
155| AYES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Agnew, George William | Brooke, Stopford | Donelan, Captain |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Duffy, William J. |
| Alden, Percy | Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T(Cheshire) | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Dunn, A- Edward (Camborne) |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Burke, E. Haviland | Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Edwards, Frank (Radnor) |
| Astbury, John Meir | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Elibank, Master of |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Byles, William Pollard | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward |
| Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.) | Cairns, Thomas | Esmonde, Sir Thomas |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Chance, Frederick William | Essex, R. W. |
| Barker, John | Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Eve, Harry Trelawney |
| Barlow, John Emmott (Somerst) | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Everett, R. Lacey |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Clarke, C. Goddard | Faber, G. H. (Boston) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Cleland, J. W. | Fenwick, Charles |
| Barnes, G. N. | Clough, William | Ferens, T. R. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace |
| Beale, W. P. | Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W.) | Findlay, Alexander |
| Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B(Hexh'm) | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Flynn, James Christopher |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Corbett, CH (Sussex, E Grinst'd) | Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Fuller, John Michael F. |
| Benn, W.(Tw'r Haml'ts, S. Geo.) | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Fullerton, High |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Cowan, W. H. | Gibb, James (Harrow) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H.(Essex, Romf'rd) | Cox, Harold | Gill, A. H. |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Crean, Eugene | Ginnell, L. |
| Billson, Alfred | Cremer, William Randal | Glendinning, R. G. |
| Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire) | Crombie, John William | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Boland, John | Crossley, William J. | Gooch, George Peabody |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Gulland, John W. |
| Brace, William | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Davies, W, Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hall, Frederick |
| Branch, James | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Halpin, J. |
| Brigg, John | Dickinson, W. H.(St. Pancras, N) | Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis |
| Bright, J. A. | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Hart-Davies, T. | M'Micking, Major G. | Rogers, P. E. Newman |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Mallet, Charles E. | Rose, Charles Day |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Rowlands, J. |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Mansfield, H. Rondall (Lincoln) | Runciman, Walter |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Markham, Arthur Basil | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Marnham, F. J. | Scott, A. H (Ashton under Lyne) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Massie, J. | Sears, J. E |
| Henderson, J. M.(Aberdeen, W.) | Meagher, Michael | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Henry, Charles S. | Menzies, Walter | Seddon, J. |
| Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) | Micklem, Nathaniel | Shackleton, David James |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Mond, A. | Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Money, J. J. | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Hodge, John | Napier, T. B. | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Hogan, Michael | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Hooper, A. G. | Nicholls, George | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N) | Nicholson, Charles N(Doncaster) | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Nolan, Joseph | Steadman, W. C. |
| Hudson, Walter | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Nuttall, Harry | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Idris, T. H. W. | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Jackson, R. S. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Summerbell, T. |
| Jenkins, J. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Doherty, Philip | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Jowett, F. W. | O'Dowd, John | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Hare, Patrick | Thompson, J. W. H(Somerset, E.) |
| Kekewich, Sir George | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Tomkinson, James |
| Kelley, George D. | O'Kelly, James(Roscommon) | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Malley, William | Toulmin, George |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Laidlaw, Robert | Parker, James (Halifax) | Vivian, Henry |
| Lambert, George | Partington, Oswald | Wadsworth, J. |
| Lamont, Norman | Paul, Herbert | Walters, John Tudor |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n) |
| Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.) | Pearson, W. H. M.(Suffolk, Eye) | Wardle, George J. |
| Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Levy, Maurice. | Pirie, Duncan V. | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Power, Patrick Joseph | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Lough, Thomas | Price, C. E.(Edinburgh, Central) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Lundon, W. | Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.) | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Lupton, Arnold | Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Radford, G. H. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Raphael, Herbert H. | Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer |
| Lynch, H. B. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Mackarness, Frederic C. | Rees, J. D. | Williams Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Maclean, Donald | Rendall, Athelstan | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Macpherson, J. T. | Renton, Major Leslie | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpton) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) | Richardson, A. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| M'Callum, John M. | Rickett, J. Compton | Winfrey, R. |
| M'Crae, George | Ridsdale, E. A. | Young, Samuel |
| M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| M'Kean, John | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) | |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradford) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| M'Killop, W. | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | |
| M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Robinson, S. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Banner, John S. Harmood- | Cave, George |
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F | Bowles, G. Stewart | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Butcher, Samuel Henry | Cecil, Lord R.(Marylebone, E.) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Carlile, E. Hildred | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Worc.) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Hills, J. W. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Turnour, Viscount |
| Dixon, Sir Daniel | Lane-Fox; G. R. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Magnus, Sir Philip | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Fell, Arthur | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Frederick Banbury and Mr. Hicks Beach. |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | |
| Fletcher, J. S. | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) | |
| Hamilton, Marquess of | Starkey John R. |
§ MR. COURTHOPE moved to delete the words providing that the selection of his constituency by the plural voter should be made "for the year in the manner provided by this Act." He said the Amendment raised the whole question of the machinery of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had given way on certain points of machinery, but not on points of principle. This was another point of machinery on which he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to make some concession. They must all— even the most sanguine supporters of the Bill—feel a little doubtful whether the measure would be easily workable. Hon. Members on both sides of the House who had most experience in electioneering matters had criticised the machinery and methods proposed somewhat severely. He could not help thinking that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill would have been well advised if he had paid rather more heed to those criticisms, which came from all parts of the House, and set himself to try and make the machinery more workable. It seemed to him that the present machinery was a direct invitation to fraud where an elector had failed to select a constituency. Where there was no mark in the register very great difficulty would occur in the detection of fraud, and anyone who was dishonest enough to make a false declaration could do so with almost perfect impunity under the machinery set up. It would be almost impossible, at any rate extremely difficult, to trace an offence or to detect an offence at all. On the other hand, those who were too honest to make these false statements might in certain instances lose their votes altogether, if through inadvertence or some other cause they failed to make their selection. It came to this. Many dishonest pluralists would exercise their votes, and many truthful and honest pluralists would exercise none of their votes. That was a state of things which 156 he thought the whole House would agree was eminently undesirable. Another important point arose in connection with the question of machinery in the case of scrutiny. The question of machinery had already been referred to this evening, and the right hon. Gentleman had pointed out that by the safeguards he had provided there would be no inducement to the candidates to demand a scrutiny, but on the other hand there would be very much greater difficulty in carrying it out. That was important. A scrutiny in some cases must be necessary, and it would be an extremely difficult matter under the machinery of this Bill to put through a scrutiny successfully and with satisfaction. Then there was the question of the Party agents. They would not only be required to send a polling card and so on to an out-voter and pluralist inviting him to come and poll on a particular day, perhaps saying that a conveyance would meet certain trains, but they would have, in addition, to approach him some time during the middle of each year, in order to secure, if possible, that he should select the constituency they represented as his voting constituency. That would be a matter of great difficulty and of expense, which would be felt by all Parties and which to his mind was giving a distinct advantage to those Parties or candidates who were so wealthy that they could spend large sums of money in registration work and in getting in touch with their out-voters. A man of moderate or small means would thus be at a disadvantage. Again, there would be a great opening under this Bill for unscrupulous agents. He hoped the majority of agents were most careful and did not come within the category of unscrupulous, but there were certainly some unscrupulous agents, and they would have grand opportunities of exercising their wiles by the machinery which this Bill set up. 157 There would be very great difficulty in detecting unscrupulous work and fraud. It would be an advantage to the Party agents to get people on the other side put on the register, whereas now it was to their advantage to keep them off, and it would be very difficult indeed to detect such cases, and to make the Party agents liable to the penalties imposed by the Bill. In every one of these instances there was premium a put on dishonesty. Then there was the question of testing the accuracy of claims and of deciding whether objections were necessary. That was a very costly proceeding. Very often it was not carried out, but under this Bill it would be absolutely essential. If one Party had not the means to carry out a careful examination of claims and to make objections where necessary, the other Party could do them great harm by putting in an enormous number of claims which they could not substantiate and which they knew their opponents would be unable to oppose. Again he must quote the Member for the Forest of Dean in corroboration of what he said as to the enormous cost of thoroughly examining an opponent's claims and of setting up objections to them. There again there was a premium put on dishonesty. Why was this extraordinary machinery set up? Why was it not sufficient for the purpose of the Government that they should simply say that a man should not vote twice? The only conclusion which one could come to—and he came to it with reluctance—was that the Government thought the majority of pluralists supported the Party of which he was a member, and that by putting disabilities upon them some Party advantage might be gained. He could not help thinking that in many constituencies the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would find they had made a mistake. Perhaps, however, the Government were prepared to risk that. Possibly they thought the country wanted a Bill of this kind, and that the people would overlook the ludicrous machinery set up by it. If the Government wished to appear as sensible, intelligent legislators they would really have to adopt some more workable method than that which this Bill set up. He knew it was of no use appealing to them on these grounds. They were deaf to all entreaty. But he did appeal to the House on be- 158 half of honesty in our registration and at our elections to accept the Amendment, the effect of which would be to revise the whole machinery of this ridiculous selection set up by the Bill.
§ CAPTAIN CRAIG, in seconding, said there appeared to be one rather important matter which his hon. friend had overlooked, and that was the case of a man who had his name on two registers practically for life. He considered that such a person should have the opportunity of declaring once and for all his intention to exercise the franchise in a particular constituency so long as he was a plural voter, instead of having each year to trust to the rate collector or Party agent to see that his name was not removed from the register. It was very hard that the voter with one qualification should remain on the register while another class of voters just as innocuous, the man with dual qualifications, should have year by year to choose in which constituency he should vote. He was quite sure that the Amendment would more nearly approximate to the wishes of the Minister in charge of the Bill than the Bill itself, which left so much to the whim of the dual voter. As the right hon. Gentleman was aware, the various political agents though out the country would be watching very closely where dual voters were being indicated on the various registers. A special effort would be made in constituencies where Members were at the present time returned by sixteen or twenty votes, or even by a hundred, and it would be very expensive to have the whole Party machinery at work annually. The necessity of choosing annually would, he thought, involve as grave an evil as those pointed out by his hon. friend. They were legislating, not only for those who would perhaps indulge in sharp practices, but also for the ordinary law-abiding elector, who would much prefer to be able to make a permanent choice of some one constituency. A more important point, perhaps, was the unfortunate wording of the clause by which penalties were imposed upon quite innocent persons. He feared the effect would be that the very persons the Government wished to penalise would go free, while the person who acted mistakenly but in all honesty would lay himself open to a series of severe 159 penalties. He trusted that though somewhat late in the day the right hon. Gentleman would recognise the importance of the Amendment and give it his careful attention.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 10, to leave out the words 'for the year in the manner provided by this Act.'"—(Mr. Courthope.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid these words, if left out, would omit the whole method of selection provided under the Bill. He resented the charge that the Government had brought in this Bill partly with the object of injuring their political opponents. It had been said that the abandonment of an important part of the machinery and methods of the Bill had been rendered necessary by the ludicrous provisions inserted during the Report stage. All he had to say in reply to that was that those "ludicrous" provisions were concessions made at the suggestion of hon. Members opposite. Selection had always been coupled with the principle enunciated in the Bill, and he was not going to change machinery which the Government had deliberately adopted.
§ VISCOUNT TURNOURsaid he rose with some diffidence as the right hon. Gentleman was kind enough to say earlier in the evening that he had not been a serious student of the Bill. If he had not grasped all the flaws of the Bill or fathomed all its various ambiguities it was because the right hon. Gentleman was such an indifferent exponent of his own measure. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh!"] He had said that if the Amendment was adopted it would injure the whole principle of the Bill. It was the whole principle of the Bill that hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House were anxious to injure, because they regarded it as most unjust, and if adopted it would not do any good to the country. The right hon. Gentleman had also referred to the Amendment as affecting the machinery of the Bill. All he could say was that it was a very important Amendment if it 160 affected both the principle and machinery of the Bill. Both the machinery and the principle of the Bill were bad, and he hoped the Government would adopt the Amendment.
§ MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid he very much regretted the change of tone which had come over the right hon. Gentleman's speeches. He had until now met them with the utmost courtesy and fairness, but within the last half hour—he supposed because the closure was going to fall shortly—he had not refrained from throwing across the floor of the House a taunt that the agents employed by the Conservative and Unionist Party were different from the agents employed by the Liberal Party.
§ MR. HARCOURTI said absolutely nothing of the sort. Nothing was further from my thought and intention. [Cries of "withdraw."]
§ MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid he was very glad indeed that he had obtained that disclaimer, because hon. Members about him believed that that taunt was made. The object of this Amendment was to remove from the clause particular words which he believed would disgust people who had any stake in the country from taking part in the affairs of the nation in future. They had had the examples of America and Australia referred to in the debate, where men of position and education, and men having a stake in the country, had absolutely withdrawn from any part in politics. The words now proposed to be left out were simply meant to harass them, and if they were omitted it would greatly conduce to the simple working of the Bill.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBELAINsaid there was little time now remaining for discussion. His hon. friend had moved this Amendment for the purpose of registering perhaps the last protest they would have an opportunity of registering, against the whole machinery by which effect was to be given to the principle that no man should vote more than once. In the course of the debate yesterday he asked how many ordinary voters would obtain their vote if it depended on personal action on their part to secure that their names were 161 put on the register. [An HON. MEMBER: What about ledgers?] He was aware of the case of lodgers. The hon. Member for Barnard Castle had expressed the opinion that not one voter in ten would secure his vote if he had imposed on him the personal exertion of looking after it at some period in advance of the time when the register came into force. The Government by the machinery of this Bill were putting on every man who had the misfortune to have two or more qualifications a disability which would have the effect of disfranchising him. For the purpose of his argument he was willing to accept in the fullest degree the statement that it was simply the intention of the Government that no man should be permitted to vote more than once. Was it reasonable, or fair, or just that they should put in the path of a man who had more than one qualification, disabilities
§ and obstacles which, they carefully removed from the path of a man who had only one? There were thirty or more Amendments on the Paper in the name of the Government, and these would have to be decided upon under the guillotine. He recognised that they were in the main either drafting Amendments or framed to meet, as far as the Government saw fit, objections taken to their original proposals. They were, in his opinion, inadequate in several particulars. Recognising, how-ever, the spirit in which they had been put down he would advise his hon. friends to accept the major portion of them without putting the House to the trouble of repeated divisions.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 340; Noes 71. (Division List No. 450.)
165| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Bright, J. A. | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Agnew, George William | Brooke, Stopford | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgn, S.) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras N) |
| Alden, Percy | Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. Ches. | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Bryce, Rt. Hon. James (Aber'n) | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Allen, Charles I'. (Stroud) | Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs | Dillon, John |
| Armitage, R. | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Donelan, Captain, A. |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Burke, E. Haviland | Duffy, William J. |
| Asbton, Thomas Gair | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) |
| Astbury, John Meir | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Dunne, Major E. Martin (Wals'l) |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Byles, William Pollard | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Cams, Thomas | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Edwards, Frank (Radnor) |
| Barker, John | Chance, Frederick William | Elibank, Master of |
| Barlow John Emmott (S'm'rs't) | Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Cheetham, John Frederick | Esmonde, Sir Thomas |
| Barnard, E. B. | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Essex, R. W. |
| Barnes, G. N. | Clarke, C. Goddard | Evans, Samuel T. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Cleland, J. W. | Eve, Harry Trelawney |
| Beale, W. P. | Clough, William | Everett, R. Lacey |
| Beauchamp, E. | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Faber, G. H. (Boston) |
| Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B. (H'xh'm) | Collins, Sir Wm, J. (S. Pancras, W) | Fenwick, Charles |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Ferens, T. R. |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Cooper, G. J. | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace |
| Benn, W.(T'w'rfl'ml'ts, S. Geo.) | Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Gr'st'd) | Findlay, Alexander |
| Bennett, E. N. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Flynn, James Christopher |
| Borridge, T. H. D. | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter |
| Bethell, Sir J.H. (Essex, R'mf'd) | Cowan, W. H. | Freeman-Thomas, Freeman |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Cox, Harold | Fuller, John Michael F. |
| Billson, Alfred | Crean, Eugene | Fullerton, Hugh |
| Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.) | Cremer, William Randal | Gibb, James (Harrow) |
| Boland, John | Crombie, John William | Gill, A. H. |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Crooks, William | Ginnell, T. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Crosfield, A. H. | Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J. |
| Brace, William | Crossley, William J. | Glendinning, R. G. |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Davies, David (Montgomery Co) | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Branch, James | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Gooch, George Peabody |
| Brigg, John | Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) |
| Gulland, John W | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Kenna, Reginald | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | M'Killop, W. | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee) |
| Hall, Frederick | M'Laren, Sir C. D. (Leicester) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Br'df'd) |
| Halpin, J. | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Roberrson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis | M'Micking, Major G. | Robinson, S. |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Maddison, Frederick | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Mallet, Charles E. | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Rose, Charles Day |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Mansfield, H. Rondall (Lincoln | Rowlands, J. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Markham, Arthur Basil | Runciman, Walter |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Marks, G. Croydon (Launcest'n) | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Marnham, F. J. | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Schwann, Sir C.E. (Manchester) |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Massie, J. | Scott, A. H.(Ashton under Lyne) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Meagher, Michael | Sears, J. E. |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Menzies, Walter | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Henry, Charles S. | Micklem, Nathaniel | Seddon, J. |
| Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.) | Mond, A. | Seely, Major J. B. |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Shackleton, David James |
| Higham, John Sharp | Mooney, J. J. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Shipman, Dr. John B. |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Morrell, Philip | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Hodge, John | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Hogan, Michael | Myer, Horatio | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Hooper, A. G. | Napier, T. B. | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N) | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Nicholls, George | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Hudson, Walter | Nicholson, Charles N. (Donc'r) | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Nolan, Joseph | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Ches.) |
| Idris, T. H. W. | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Steadman, W. C. |
| Jackson, R. S. | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Jenkins, J. | Nuttall, Harry | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid) | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea | O'Doherty, Philip | Summerbell, T. |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Jowett, F. W. | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Dowd, John | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Kekewich, Sir George | O'Hare, Patrick | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Kelly, George D. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N) | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Kincaid-Smith, Captain | O'Malley, William | Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset E) |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J | Tomkinson, James |
| Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James | Parker, James (Halifax) | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Laidlaw, Robert | Partington, Oswald | Toulmin, George |
| Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominst'r) | Paul, Herbert | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Paulton, James Mellor | Ure, Alexander |
| Lambert, George | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Vivian, Henry |
| Lamont, Norman | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) | Walters, John Tudor |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E) | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Ac'r'gton | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Ward, W. Dudley (Southamp'n) |
| Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wardle, George J. |
| Levy, Maurice | Pollard, Dr. | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Power, Patrick Joseph | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.) | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Lough, Thomas | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Watt, H. Anderson |
| London, W. | Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford, E) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Radford, G. H. | Whitbread, Howard |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Raphael, Herbert H. | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Lynch, H. B. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Macdonald, J. M (Falkirk B'hs | Redmond, John E. (Waterford | White, Luke(York, E. R.) |
| Mackarness, Frederic C. | Redmond, William (Clare) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Maclean, Donald | Rees, J. D. | Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer |
| Macpherson, J. T. | Rendall, Athelstan | Wiles, Thomas |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Renton, Major Leslie | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) | Richards, T. F. (Wolverhamp'n) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| M'Callum, John M. | Richardson, A. | Wilson, Hon. C. H.W.(Hull, W) |
| M'Crae, George | Rickett, J. Compton | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) | Winfrey, R. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon | |
| Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | Young, Samuel | |
| NOES. | ||
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Doughty, Sir George | Percy, Earl |
| Ashley, W. W. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Du Cros, Harvey | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Gov'n) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Faber, George Denison (York) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Fardell, Sir T. George | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Fell, Arthur | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Fletcher, J. S. | Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton.) |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hamilton, Marquess of | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury S. Edm'ds) | Starkey, John R. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Houston, Robert Paterson | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Cave, George | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W. | Turnour, Viscount |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kimber, Sir Henry | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E. | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wor) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col A R | |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Magnus, Sir Philip | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Lord Balcarres. |
| Courthope, G. Lloyd | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Morpeth, Viscount |
§ MR. HARCOURT moved what he ex-explained was a drafting Amendment to leave out the word "section" in line 12 in order to insert "provision." He said that he did this in order to provide that if a person knowingly acted in contravention of the provision contained in the first part of the clause he should be guilty of personation. Although it was merely a drafting Amendment it was important that it should be made.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 12, to leave out the word 'section' and insert the word 'provision.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. LANE-FOX moved an Amendment which would have the effect of omitting the penalties attaching to personating and under the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Act of 1883, and providing that a person guilty of an offence under the Bill should only be "liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding forty shillings." He desired to emphasise the strong feeling that they on that side of the House had in regard to these penalties, 166 although it had been pointed out that the full penalties would not be exacted in all cases. To his mind it was monstrous that the Government, having deliberately set a trap by means of complicated machinery, should make a person prove himself innocent or be subject to the heaviest penalty which the law allowed. In a previous speech the right hon. Gentleman said he had been guilty of undue tenderness to the plural voter, in having put that person in danger of two years imprisonment. If that was the right hon. Gentleman's method of being unduly tender he wondered what happened when he became cruel. To all who knew him, it seemed impossible to believe that the right hon. Gentleman could be cruel, but if his measure of tenderness was to place his victims, trapped by his own machinery, within the range of a sentence of imprisonment for two years with hard labour, he could only say that he hoped that he might never cross the right hon. Gentleman in the full blast of his cruelty. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would show them that he was not the human tiger which he represented himself to be. The proscription of political opponents was no new form of political 167 movement, but to proscribe them in this manner by setting a trap for them and luring them into it was a most brutal form of proscription, and he would say, with all respect, the right hon. Gentleman had adopted a most clumsy method of doing it.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 13, to leave out from the word 'be' to the word 'provided' in line 16, and insert the words 'liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding 40a.'"— (Mr. Lane-Fox.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. HARCOURTsaid that the Amendment would provide an insufficient maximum penalty. It would be taken
§ as an indication to certain persons that they might have as many votes as they chose, and that a penalty of £2 would cover the electoral offence. It was desirable not to make it easy and cheap to break the law and wilfully to evade the provisions of the Bill.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINagreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the penalty proposed by his hon. friend was insufficient, but he thought that the maximum penalty imposed by the Government was altogether too severe and out of proportion to the offence. Therefore he should vote against the words of the Government standing part of the Bill.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:— Ayes, 360; Noes, 76. (Division List No. 451.)
171| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Bramsdon, T. A. | Cremer, William Randal |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Branch, James | Crombie, John William |
| Agnew, George William | Brigg, John | Crooks, William |
| Ainsworth, John Stilling | Bright, J. A. | Crosfield, A. H. |
| Alden, Percy | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Crossley, William J. |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Brodie, H. C. | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Brooke, Stopford | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Brunner, J. P. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) |
| Armitage, R. | Brunner, Rt. Hn Sir JT (Cheshire) | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh,) S. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Astbury, John Meir | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Burke, E. Haviland- | Dillon, John |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Dobson, Thomas W. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Duffy, William J. |
| Barker, John | Byles, William Pollard | Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness |
| Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't) | Cairns, Thomas | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Cawley, Sir Frederick | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Chance, Frederick William | Edwards, Frank (Radnor) |
| Beale, W. P. | Charming, Sir Francis Allston | Elibank, Master of |
| Beauchamp, E. | Cheetham, John Frederick | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward |
| Beaumont, Hn. W.C.B (Hexham) | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Erskine, David C. |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Clarke, C. Goddard | Esmonde, Sir Thomas |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Cleland, J. W. | Essex, R. W. |
| Benn, W. (T'w'rH'mlets, S. Geo.) | Clough, William | Evans, Samuel T. |
| Bennett, E. N. | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Eve, Harry Trelawney |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Collins, Sir Wm J.(S. Pancras, W) | Everett, R. Lacey |
| Bethell, Sir J.H (Essex, Romf'rd) | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Faber, G. H. (Boston) |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Waldon) | Cooper, G. J. | Fenwick, Charles |
| Billson, Alfred | Corbott, C. H. (Sussex. E. Grinst'd) | Ferens, T. R. |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace |
| Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Findlay, Alexander |
| Boland, John | Cowan, W. H. | Flynn, James Christopher |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Cox, Harold | Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Freeman-Thomas, Freeman |
| Brace, William | Crean, Eugene | Fuller, John Michael F. |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Lynch, H. B. | Priestley, W. E.B.(Bradford, E.) |
| Gibb, James (Harrow) | Macdonald, J.M (Falkirk B'ghs.) | Radford, G. H. |
| Gill, A. H. | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Rainy, A. Rolland |
| Ginnell, L. | Maclean, Donald | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Glendinning, R. G. | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Macpherson, J. T. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Gooch, George Peabody | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Rees, J. D. |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Gulland, John W. | M'Callum, John M. | Renton, Major Leslie |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Crae, George | Richards, T F(Wolverh'mpton) |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Richardson, A. |
| Hall, Frederick | M'Kenna, Reginald | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Halpin, J. | M'Killop, W. | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Robertson, Rt. Hon. E. (Dundee) |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | M'Micking, Major G. | Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradford) |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Maddison, Frederick | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Mallet, Charles E. | Robinson, S. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Markham, Arthur Basil | Rose, Charles Day |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Rowlands, J. |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Marnham, F. J. | Runciman, Walter |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Henderson, J. M.(Aberdeen, W.) | Massie, J. | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Henry, Charle S. | Meagher, Michael | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.) | Menzies, Walter | Schwann, Sir C.E (Manchester) |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Micklem, Nathaniel | Scott, A H (Ashton under Lyne) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Molteno, Percy Alport | Sears, J. E. |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Mond, A. | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Seddon, J. |
| Hodge, John | Mooney, J. J. | Seely, Major J. B. |
| Hogan, Michael | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall | Shackleton, David James |
| Hooper, A. G. | Morrell, Philip | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) |
| Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset. N) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Myer, Horatio | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Hodson, Walter | Napier, T. B. | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John |
| Idris, T. H. W. | Nicholls, George | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Nicholson, Charles N (Doncaster) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Jackson, R. S. | Nolan, Joseph | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Jenkins, J. | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Nuttall, Harry | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid) | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Steadman, W. C. |
| Jowett, F. W. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Doherty, Philip | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Kekewich, Sir George | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Kelley, George D. | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Dowd, John | Summerbell, T. |
| Kincaid-Smith, Captain | O'Hare, Patrick | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N) | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Laidlaw, Robert | O'Malley, William | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr) |
| Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Lambert, George | Partington, Oswald | Thompson, J.W.H(Somerset, E.) |
| Lamont, Norman | Paul, Herbert | Tomkinson, James |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Paulton, James Mellor | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | Toulmin, George |
| Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) | Pearco, William (Limehouse) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington) | Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye) | Ure, Alexander |
| Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) | Vivian, Henry |
| Levy, Maurice | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Walters, John Tudor |
| Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Pirie, Duncan V. | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Lough, Thomas | Pollard, Dr. | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Lundon, W. | Power, Patrick Joseph | Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton |
| Lupton, Arnold | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central | Wardle, George J. |
| Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Waterlow, D. S. | Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer | Winfrey, E. |
| Watt, H. Anderson | Wiles, Thomas | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Wedgwood, Josiah O. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Young, Samuel |
| Whitbread, Howard | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | |
| White, George (Norfolk) | Wilson, Hon. C. H.W. (Hull, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) | |
| White, Luke (York, E.R.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) | |
| White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) | |
| Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F. | Craik, Sir Henry | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Doughty, Sir George | Percy, Earl |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Ashley, W. W. | Du Cros, Harvey | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Balcarres, Lord | Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Faber, George Denison (York) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Fardell, Sir T. George | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Fell, Arthur | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Fletcher, J. S. | Smith, F. K (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Hamilton, Marquess of | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Heaton, John Henniker | Starkey, John R. |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury S. Edm'ds) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hills, J. W. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Houston, Robert Paterson | Turnour, Viscount |
| Cave, George | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kimber, Sir Henry | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone E.) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc) | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Younger, George |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareham) | |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Lane-Fox and Mr. Stanley Wilson. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Magnus, Sir Philip | |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
§ And, it being after half-past Ten of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 26th November, to put forthwith the Questions on the Amendments moved by the Government, of which notice had been given.
§
Amendments proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 16, to leave out from the word 'that,' to end of sub-section, and insert '(a) the Court before whom any person is convicted of the offence of personation under this section may, if they think fit, instead of inflicting the punishment of imprisonment, impose a fine not exceeding five hundred pounds; and (b) the provisions of Section 86 of The Parliamentary Voters Registration Act, 1843, as to giving a person into custody whom an agent declares to be guilty of personation shall not apply in a case where the personation alleged is personation under this Act; and (c) a person may be convicted
172
of aiding, abetting, counselling, or procuring the commission of personation under this Act if he knowingly and with the intention of defeating the provisions of this Act, aids, abets, counsels, or procures any person to act in contravention of the foregoing provision of this section, whether that person in so acting would be acting knowingly, and with the intention of evading the provisions of this Act, or not.'
In page 1, line 21, to leave out the words 'a person desiring,' and insert the words 'where a person owing to his being registered in two or more constituencies, or owing to the probability of his becoming so registered desires.'
In page 1, line 22, after the word 'Act' to insert the word 'he.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 22, to leave out the words 'send or cause to be sent a,' and to insert the word 'give.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
174§ The House divided:—Ayes, 363; Noes, 76. (Division List No. 452.)
177| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hall, Frederick |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Clarke, C. Goddard | Halpin, J. |
| Agnew, George William | Cleland, J. W. | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Clough, William | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Alden, Percy | Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Hart-Davies, T. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Collins, Sir Wm J. (S. Pancras, W) | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Armitage, R. | Cooper, G. J. | Haworth, Arthur A. |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd) | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn Herbert Henry | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Hemmerde, Edward George |
| Astbury, John Meir | Cowan, W. H. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Cox, Harold | Henderson, J. M (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Henry, Charles S. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Crean, Eugene | Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Cremer, William Randal | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) |
| Barker, John | Crombie, John William | Higham, John Sharp |
| Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't) | Crooks, William | Hobart, Sir Robert |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Crosfield, A. H. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. |
| Burnard, E. B. | Crossley, William J. | Hodge, John |
| Barnes, G. N. | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Hogan, Michael |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Hooper, A. G. |
| Beale, W. P. | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N |
| Beauchamp, E. | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Horniman, Emslie John |
| Beaumont. Hn W. C. B (Hexham) | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Dickinson, W. H (St. Pancras, N.) | Hudson, Walter |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Hyde, Clarendon |
| Benn, W (T'w'rH'mlets, S. Geo.) | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Idris, T. H. W. |
| Bennett, E. N. | Dillon, John | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Dobson, Thomas W. | Jackson, R. S. |
| Bethell, Sir J H (Essex, Romf'rd) | Donelan, Captain A. | Jenkins, J. |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Duffy, William J. | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Billson, Alfred | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) |
| Black, Arthur W(Bedfordshire) | Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) | Jones, Leif (Appleby) |
| Boland, John | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Jowett, F. W. |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Joyce, Michael |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Edwards, Frank (Radnor) | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Brace, William | Elibank, Master of | Kelley, George D. |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Branch, James | Erskine, David C. | Kincaid-Smith, Captain |
| Brigg, John | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) |
| Bright, J. A. | Essex, R. W. | Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Eve, Harry Trelawney | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Brodie, H. C. | Everett, R. Lacey | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster |
| Brooke, Stopford | Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Fenwick, Charles | Lambert, George |
| Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J T(Cheshire) | Ferens, T. R. | Lamont, Norman |
| Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeon) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) |
| Bryce, J. A. (Inverness B'rghs) | Findlay, Alexander | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Flynn, James Christopher | Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Freeman-Thomas, Freeman | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Fuller, John Michael F. | Levy, Maurice |
| Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Fullerton, Hugh | Lewis, John Horbert |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gibb, James (Harrow) | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Gill, A. H. | Lough, Thomas |
| Bytes, William Pollard | Ginnell, L. | Lundon, W. |
| Cairns, Thomas | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Lupton, Arnold |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Glendinning, R. G. | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick | Gooch, George Peabody | Lynch, H. B. |
| Chance, Frederick William | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Macdonald, J. M (Falkirk B'ghs) |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Gulland, John W. | Mackarness, Frederic C. |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Maclean, Donald |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| MacNeill, John. Gordon Swift | Paulton, James Mellor | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Macpherson, J. T. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Stanger, H. Y. |
| MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E) | Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye) | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| M'Callum, John M. | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) | Steadman, W. C. |
| M'Crae, George | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Pirie, Duncan V. | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| M'Killop, W. | Pollard, Dr. | Sullivan, Donal |
| M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Power, Patrick Joseph | Summerbell, T. |
| M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| M'Micking, Major G. | Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Maddison, Frederick | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Mallett, Charles E. | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Radford, G. H. | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr) |
| Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Rainy, A. Rolland | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Markham, Arthur Basil | Raphael, Herbert H. | Thompson, J.W.H (Somerset, E |
| Marks, G. Croydon (Launcest'n) | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Tomkinson, James |
| Marnham, F. J. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Redmond, William (Clare) | Toulmin, George |
| Massie, J. | Rees, J. D. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Meagher, Michael | Rendall, Athelstan | Ure, Alexander |
| Menzies, Walter | Renton, Major Leslie | Vivian, Henry |
| Micklem, Nathaniel | Richards. T.P. (Wolverh'mpton) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Richardson, A. | Walters, John Tudor |
| Mond, A. | Rickett, J, Compton | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Ridsdale, E. A. | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Mooney, J. J. | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Wardle, George J. |
| Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Morrell, Philip | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Myer, Horatio | Robinson, S. | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Napier, T. B. | Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Rogers, P. E. Newman | Whitbread, Howard |
| Nicholls, George | Rose, Charles Day | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncaster) | Rowlands, J. | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Nolan, Joseph | Runciman, Walter | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Nuttall, Harry | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer |
| O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) | Wiles, Thomas |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Scott, A. H.(Ashton under Lyne) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Sears, J. E. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Seaveras, J. H. | Wilson, Hn. C.H.W. (Hull, W.) |
| O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Seddon, J. | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Seely, Major J. B. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| O'Dowd, John | Shackleton, David James | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| O'Hare, Patrick | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Winfrey, R. |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N) | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| O'Malley, William | Simon, John Allsebrook | Young, Samuel |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Sloan, Thomas Henry | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Partington, Oswald | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | |
| Paul, Herbert | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | |
| NOES. | ||
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Carlile, E. Hildred | Doughty, Sir George |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cave, George | Du Cros, Harvey |
| Ashley, W. W. | Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W. | Duncan, Robert (Lanark Govan |
| Balfour Rt. Hn A. J. (City Lond.) | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Faber, George Denison (Yorks) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc) | Fell, Arthur |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Fletcher, J. S. |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hamilton, Marquess of |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Courthope, G. Loyd | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Craig, Captain James (Down, E. | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Craik, Sir Henry | Hervey, F. W. F (Bury S. Edm'ds) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) |
| Hills, J. W. | Morpeth, Viscount | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Percy, Earl | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Turnour, Viscount |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Kimber, Sir Henry | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Lane-Fox, G. R. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Wilson, A Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart. |
| Leo, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareham) | Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East) | |
| Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Smith, F.E (Liverpool, Walton) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Lord Balcarres. |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | |
| Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Starkey, John R. | |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 23, to leave out the words 'signed by him.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 1, line 27, after the word 'effect,' to insert the words 'by delivering or causing
§ to be delivered or sending by post to the clerk a notice to that effect signed by him.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 354; Noes, 72. (Division List No. 453.)
181| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Brodie, H. C. | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) |
| Agnew, George William | Brooke, Stopford | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S. |
| Alden, Percy | Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J.T.(Ches.) | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch | Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberd'n) | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Ambrose, Robert | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Dillon, John |
| Armitage, R. | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Dobson, Thomas W. |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Burke, E. Haviland- | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Duffy, William J. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness |
| Astbury, John Meir | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Byles, William Pollard | Edwards, Clement (Donbigh) |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Cairns, Thomas | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Edwards, Frank (Radnor) |
| Barker, John | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Elibank, Master of |
| Barlow, John Eramott (Som'rs't) | Chance, Frederick William | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Erskine, David C. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Cheetham, John Frederick | Esmonde, Sir Thomas |
| Barnes, G. N. | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Essex, R. W. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Evans, Samuel T. |
| Beale, W. P. | Clarke, C. Goddard | Eve, Harry Trelawney |
| Beauchamp, E. | Cleland, J. W. | Everett, R. Lacey |
| Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B. (H'xh'm) | Clough, William | Faber, G. H. (Boston) |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Fenwick, Charles |
| Bellairs, Carylon | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Ferens, T. R. |
| Benn, W. (T'w'r H'mlets, S. Geo.) | Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W) | Findlay, Alexander |
| Bennett, E. N. | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Flynn, James Christopher |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Cooper, G. J. | Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter |
| Bethell, Sir J.H. (Essex, R'mf'd) | Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E. Gr'ns'd) | Freeman-Thomas, Freeman |
| Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Fuller, John Michael F. |
| Billson, Alfred | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Fullerton, Hugh |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Cowan, W. H. | Gibb, James (Harrow) |
| Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.) | Cox, Harold | Gill, A. H. |
| Boland, John | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Ginnell, L. |
| Boulton, A. C. P. (Ramsey) | Crean, Eugene | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John |
| Bowerman, C. H. | Cremer, William Randal | Glendinning, R. G. |
| Brace, William. | Crombie, John William | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Crooks, William | Gooch, George Peabody |
| Branch, James | Crosfield, A. H. | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) |
| Brigg, John | Crossley, William J. | Gulland, John W. |
| Bright, J. A. | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Richardson, A. |
| Hall, Frederick | M'Kenna, Reginald | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Halpin, J. | M'Killop, W. | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee) |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | M'Micking, Major G. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Br'df'd) |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Maddison, Frederick | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneide) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyahire) | Mallet, Charles E. | Robinson, S. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Markham, Arthur Basil | Rose, Charles Day |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Rowlands, J. |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Marnham, F. J. | Runciman, Walter |
| Henderson, Arthur (Denham) | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W | Massie, J. | Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) |
| Henry, Charles S. | Meagher, Michael | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) |
| Herbert, Colonel Ivor, (Mon., S.) | Menzies, Walter | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe | Micklem, Nathaniel | Scott, A. H.(Ashton-under Lyne) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Molteno, Percy Alport | Sears, J. E. |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Mond, A. | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Hodge, John | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Seddon, J. |
| Hogan, Michael | Mooney, J. J. | Seely, Major J. B. |
| Hooper, A. G. | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Shackleton, David James |
| Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N) | Morrell, Philip | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Howard, Hon Geoffrey | Myer, Horatio | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Hudson, Walter | Napier, T. B. | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Hyde, Clarendon | Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John |
| Idris, T. H. W. | Nicholls, George | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Nicholson, Charles N. (Donc'r) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Jackson, R. S. | Nolan, Joseph | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea | Nuttall, Harry | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'y Mid) | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Ches.) |
| Jowett, F. W. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Steadman, W. C. |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Kekewich, Sir George | O'Doherty, Philip | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Kelley, George D. | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Straus, B. J. (Mile End) |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Kincaid-Smith, Captain | O'Hare, Patrick | Summerbell, T. |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Laidlaw, Robert | O'Malley, William | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr) |
| Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Lambert, George | Partington, Oswald | Thompson, J. W. H. (S'm'rset, E.) |
| Lamont, Norman | Paul Herbert | Tomkinson, James |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Paulton, James Mellor | Toulmin, George |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Ure, Alexander |
| Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accr'gton) | Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye | Vivian, Henry |
| Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Levy, Maurice | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Walters, John Tudor |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) |
| Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Pirie, Duncan V. | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Lough, Thomas | Pollard, Dr. | Wardle, George J. |
| Lundon, W. | Power, Patrick Joseph | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Lupton, Arnold | Price, C.E. (Edinburgh, Central | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney |
| Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E. | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Lynch, H. B. | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B. | Radford, G. H | Whitbread, Howard |
| Mackarness, Frederic C. | Rainy, A. Rolland | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Maclean, Donald | Raphael, Herbert H. | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Macnarmara, Dr. Thomas J. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | White, Luke (Cork, E. R.) |
| MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Redmond, John E. (Waterford | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Macpherson, J. T. | Redmond, William (Clare) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Rees, J. D. | Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer |
| MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E. | Rendall, Athelstan | Wiles, Thomas |
| M'Callum, John M. | Renton, Major Leslie | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| M'Crae, George | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mp'n) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) | Winfrey, R. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon | |
| Wilson, W. T. (Westohughton) | Young, Samuel | |
| NOES. | ||
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Craik, Sir Henry | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Dixon, Sir Daniel | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Doughty, Sir George | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Ashley, W. W. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond) | Duncan, Robert (Lanark, G'vn) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Faber, George Denison (York) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Fardell, Sir T. George | Smith, Abel H..(Hertford, East) |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Fell, Arthur | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Fench, Rt. Hon. George H. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Fletcher, J. S. | Starkey, John R. |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Ed'ds) | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Take, Sir John Batty |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Hills, J. W. | Turnour, Viscount |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cave, George | Kimber, Sir Henry | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W. | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart- |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Wore.) | Lee, Arthur H. (Nants., Fareh'm) | |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Maagnus, Sir Philip | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Corbett, T. L. (Devon, North) | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Lord Balcarres. |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Meysey-Tohmpson, E. C. | |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Morpeth, Viscount |
§
Amendments proposed—
In page 1, line 28, and page 2, line 1, to leave out the words 'send an acknowledgment of the receipt of the said notice, and.'
In page 2, line 1, to leave out the words 'sending,' and insert the words 'giving.'
In page 2, line 7, to leave out all after the word 'withdrawn,' to the end of the sub section, and insert as new paragraphs, 'A person desiring to withdraw his notice of selection must give notice of withdrawal to the clerk of the county council or town clerk acting for the constituency the selection of which is to be withdrawn, by delivering or causing to be delivered or sending by post to the clerk a notice to that effect signed by him. The clerk shall send an acknowledgment of the receipt of every notice of selection or withdrawal received by him, and shall retain and preserve all notices so received, and allow any person to inspect these notices on payment of a fee not exceeding one shilling.
In page 2, line 9, to leave out the words 'intent to evade,' and insert the words 'the intention of evading.'
In page 2, line 11, to leave out the words 'sends or causes to be sent a,' and insert the word' gives.'
In page 2, line 15, to leave out the words 'sends or causes to be seat a,' and insert the word' gives.'
182
In page 2, line 19, at end, to insert, (4)'A Court before whom a person is convicted under this section of the offence of personation or of an illegal practice may, if they think it just under the circumstances of the case, mitigate or entirely remit any incapacities imposed by Section 6 or Section 10 of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, and if on application made it is shown to the High Court that any person has acted in contravention of this section without any intention of evading the provisions of this Act the Court shall have a similar power to grant relief as is contained in Section 23 of the said Act.'
In page 2, line 19, at end, to insert, 'If any person forges or fraudulently alters or uses or fraudulently gives or allows to be given by any other person any notice of selection or withdrawal under this Act, he shall be guilty of an illegal practice within the meaning of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act. 1883.'
In page 2, line 19, at end, to insert 'If any person directly or indirectly by himself or by any other person on his behalf induces or attempts to induce any person to refrain from voting as a Parliamentary elector by informing that person that he is registered in two or more constituencies knowing that he is not so registered, or without having reasonable ground to believe that he is so registered, that person shall be guilty of undue influence within the
183
meaning of Section 2 of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883.'
In page 2, line 19, at end, to insert 'If on an election petition the vote of any person is objected to on the ground that it has been given in contravention of this Act, the vote shall not be rejected on that ground if the voter satisfies the Court that he did not know that he was registered in any constituency other than that in which he has voted.'
In page 2, line 19, at end, to insert 'If any clerk of a county council or town clerk wilfully fails to perform any duty imposed on him by or in pursuance of this Act, he shall be liable to forfeit to any person aggrieved the penal sum of one hundred pounds, or such less sum as the Court before whom the action for the recovery of the sum is tried shall consider just.'
In page 2, line 30, to leave out all after the word 'constituency,' to end of subsection.'
In page 2, line 38, after the word 'with,' to insert the word 'the.'
In page 2, line 38, to leave out the words 'to evade,' and to insert the words 'of evading.'
In page 3, lines 7, 8 and 9, to leave out the words 'as respects Ireland under Section 3 of The Parliamentary Registration (Ireland) Act, 1885.'
In page 3, to leave out lines 17 and 18, and to insert 'The expressions 'elector' and 'person entitled to vote' and other similar expressions when used in any Act of Parliament, whether passed before or after the commencement of this Act, shall, except so far as the contrary intention appears, and except so far as necessary to carry out the provisions of this Act, be construed to include any person registered as a Parliamentary elector in any constituency, although under the provisions of this Act he may be debarred from voting in that constituency, subject as follows.'
In page 3, line 22, to leave out the word 'section,' and to insert the words 'sections one and.'
In page 3, line 23, to leave out the words 'that Act,' and to insert the words 'The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883.'
In page 3, line 23, at end to add '(2) A person registered as a Parliamentary elector in any constituency shall not be treated as a 'voter' 'elector,' or 'registered elector' in that constituency for the purposes of the First and Third Schedules of The Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1875, or
184
the First Schedule of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, if his place of abode, as entered in the register, is not the same as his qualifying premises as so entered, and he has not selected that constituency as his voting constituency under this Act. The clerk of the county council or town clerk shall enter in his summary of the number of Parliamentary electors or otherwise on the register, the number of those electors whose place of abode is entered on the register as not the same as their qualifying premises as so entered, and who have not selected the constituency in question as their voting constituency under this Act.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
In Clause 6, page 3, line 31, after the word 'also,' to insert the words 'for the purposes of this Act.'
In page 4, line 2, at end, to insert the words the Court of Session acting subject to the provisions of sub-section (4) of Section 68 of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, shall be substituted for the High Court; the sheriff shall be substituted for a court of summary jurisdiction or county court, the Lord Advocate shall be substituted for the Attorney-General.'
In page 4, line 2, at end, to insert the words 'A reference to the Schedule of The Parliamentary Elections, Returning Officers Expenses (Scotland) Act, 1878, and to the Schedule of the Returning Officers (Scotland) Act, 1891, shall be substituted for a reference to the First and Third Schedules of The Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1875.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
Schedule, page 5, line 9, after the word 'not,' to insert the words 'to my knowledge.'
Schedule, page 5, line 20, after the word 'constituency,' to insert the words 'knowingly, and with the intention of evading the provisions of the Plural Voting Prevention Act, 1906.
Schedule, page 5, line 24, after the word 'and,' to insert the words 'subject to the provisions of that Act.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
§ Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 358.]
§ Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of the 4th August last.
§ Adjourned at a quarter after Eleven o'clock.