HC Deb 12 May 1890 vol 344 cc800-3

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2.

The following Amendments, proposed by Mr. MACARTNEY, were agreed to:—

Page 2, line 1, after "the," leave out 'several."

Page 2, line 5, after "the," insert "said."

MR. MACARTNEY

moved: Page 2, line 5, leave out all the words after "borough," to end of Clause.

MR. SEXTON

There is an Amendment to the Preamble leaving out the words relating to the expenses of the Clerk of the Peace.

MR. MACARTNEY

I am informed that the words proposed to be left out are unnecessary.

MR. SEXTON

The Preamble recites that it is expedient to make further provision for the whole of the Courts; but if these words are struck out there is no provision for charging the account.

MR. MACARTNEY

If the hon. Member presses that the words should be left in, I do not care; but I am informed that they are really not necessary.

MR, SEXTON

If it should appear on Report that the words are unnecessary, we could then deal with the matter.

*THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. MADDEN,) Dublin University

I shall consider the question between now and the Report stage.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 3.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 18, to leave out all the words after the word "expenses," to "and shall," in line 20.—(Mr. Johnston.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. SEXTON

If this Amendment were agreed to, the clause would be worthless. The clause allows the Recorder of Belfast to pay to the Clerk of the Peace such sum as he may think reasonable as expenses in carrying out the Act. In recent years the work of registration has very much increased, for whereas there were formerly 21,000 voters and one Revising Barrister, there are now 32,000 voters and five Revising Barristers. The Clerk of the Peace expenses have, during the last three years, been £731. £665, and £633 respectively; and the Amendment, if passed, would have the effect of precluding his getting one penny.

MR. MACARTNEY

I cannot conceive that my hon. Friend will press the Amendment. Of course, if he does, it will stop the Bill, for the effect of his Amendment would be to give the Clerk of the Peace for Belfast a sum much less than the salary of £50 which he had before.

*MR. JOHNSTON (Belfast)

Will the Attorney General state whether that would be the effect of the proposition?

*MR. MADDEN

Yes; a considerable proportion of expenses would be left outside the Bill.

*MR. JOHNSTON

I ask leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Other Amendments made.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 20, after "and," leave out "shall also," and insert— The said expenses of the Clerk of the Peace, other than the costs of necessary printing, shall be calculated according to the scale for the time being in force under any order of the Lord Lieutenant in Council made pursuant to The County Officers and Councils (Ireland) Act, 1877, and the said recorder shall sign and."—(Mr. Macartney.)

MR. SEXTON

The hon. Member's Amendment defeats his own object. The effect of it would be to give the Clerk of the Peace, taking 32,000 voters at l½d. each, about £200 a year. I trust the hon. Member will see the propriety of withdrawing the Amendment.

(12.28.) MR. MACARTNEY

This provision only applies to the expenses of the Clerk of the Peace, and not to his remuneration. I am obliged to press the insertion of these words, to which I am authorised to say the Clerk of the Peace makes no objection. They only apply to the actual legal expenses, for which he is out of pocket.

MR. SEXTON

Is the learned Attorney General of opinion that the Recorder will make the Clerk of the Peace such remuneration as is apart from expenses?

*MR. MADDEN

My opinion is that the Amendment merely applies to expenses.

Question, "That the words 'shall also' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 8, to leave out all the words after "clerk" to end of clause.

MR. SEXTON

By a clause of the Act of 1868 the County Down got rid of its expenses, and since 1867 the Clerk of the Peace has paid them out of his own pocket, and has never been repaid. This gentleman has been £318 out of pocket. If these words are struck out the Clerk of the Peace will lose his £300.

MR. MACARTNEY

I have endeavoured to reconcile the various interests but it is a matter of difficulty, and, much as I sympathise with the hon. Member in what he has said, I am compelled to maintain the obligations I am under to various sections of this House. If this Bill passes, the Clerk of the Peace will be in a very much better position. I hope the hon. Member will not press his objection. I am obliged to omit the words.

MR. SEXTON

I am extremely sorry that the hon. Gentleman should, at the beginning of his political career, have given such an equivocal pledge, and that this Public Officer will not get his money back. However, I suppose I must yield, or the Bill, which on the whole improves the equity of the situation, would not pass at all. But I must express my regret that the hon. Member allowed himself to make any alliances whatever.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and rejected.

Other Amendments made.

Bill reported With an amended title; as amended, to be considered upon Wednesday.