§ MR. J. O'CONNOR (Tipperary, S.)I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, on the 23rd ultimo, two policemen named respectively Gurry and Linane, followed Mr. John Cullinane, Mr. R. Prowen, and Mr. B. Gill into the shop of Mr. J. A. Carew, of Tipperary; that when they retired into an inner room they were again followed by the policemen; also when they proceeded upstairs to the private drawing room, on the invitation of the proprietor, the policemen followed, and burst in the door which had been closed against them, and remained in the room for the time of 25 minutes against the protests of the proprietor of the house, using insulting language; and by what authority do the police follow these gentlemen, and had they any warrant for breaking open the door of the house?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe two police men referred to entered the house because Cullinane is a man who is actively engaged in organising boycotting and other illegal practices in the district. The shop referred to is a public house. The police did not enter into any private room, but that part of the house which is open to the public. They did not burst in any door, neither was any insulting language used by them.
§ MR. DILLONOn what ground does the right hon. Gentleman state that Mr. Cullinane is actively engaged in organising boycotting in that district?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURHe is not only engaged in illegal practices, but I believe he is the paid agent for these purposes of an Organisation with which the hon. Member is connected.
§ Mr. J. O'CONNORWhat reason has the right hon. Gentleman for stating that Mr. Cullinane is the paid agent of an organisation engaged in boycotting?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURReasons which I believe to be adequate.
§ MR. J. O'CONNORWill the right hon. Gentleman state them to the House?
§ [No answer was given.]
§ MR. J. O'CONNORI will now ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether com plaints have reached him that on the 7th inst when Mr. Gill, Mr. John Kelly, Mr. 0. B. Dalton, and Mr. Cullinane stood on the street of Tipperary to ask Mr. Ronan, Chairman of the Town Commissioners, how his sick child was, two policemen named Gurry and Linane stood between them and remained there in spite of those gentlemen's protests; that when they went into the shop of Mr. Ronan to pursue their inquiries, the police tried to force their way in against the protest of Mr. Ronan's relative, Mr. Kernick, to whom they said, "How dare you talk to us, you puppy;" and subsequently they followed, using such language as, "We are in nice company now," "Don't mind that class," "Go on Jack, we know you," "Get on Gill, we know your character;" and if he can state how long it is intended that these gentlemen shall be thus followed by the police?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe Constabu lary Authorities report that the con stables mentioned were following Mr. Cullinane in consequence of the active part he is taking in organising boycotting and other illegal practices in the districts. The police state that they did not interfere with the conversation, nor is it the case that they attempted to enter the house, as alleged. They also state that no protest was made to them by any of Mr. Ronan's relatives, and that the language attributed to them is without the slightest foundation.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYCannot the constabulary be instructed to keep away 10 yards or so, which would prevent their hearing the conversation?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThere is no desire to make the following by the police unnecessarily disagreeable—quite the contrary; but if conversation, organising, and boycotting are permitted in the public streets, the following would be rendered useless.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYAre we to under stand that the instructions to the constabulary are that they are to keep within earshot?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI should think that depends on the character of each case.
§ Mr. J. O'CONNORWhen the right hon. Gentleman stated that the police did not interfere with the conversation of gentlemen in Tipperary, did he mean that with a policeman stationed on his right hand and another on his left a gentleman's conversation is not interfered with?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI do not think I made the statement suggested by the hon. Gentleman. I said that no un necessary interference was intended.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYIs it left to the discretion of the policemen to decide whether they shall remain within earshot of those whom they are following?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI should think not; I imagine that those who give the constabulary instructions would take notice of the particular circumstances of each case.
§ MR. J. O'CONNORWill the right hon. Gentleman reply to the last part of my question?
§ MR. CONDON (Tipperary, E.)Were specific instructions given to the Police Authorities to shadow my wife and another lady in Cashel, and to detail men to walk side by side with them?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI only lay down general lines of policy in the matter. With regard to the last paragraph of the question on the Paper, of course these gentlemen would not be followed if they gave any indication whatever that they proposed to abstain from boycotting.
§ MR. J. O'CONNORIf affidavits are sworn to the effect that the language stated in the question was used by the police, will the right hon. Gentleman take notice of it?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI will take notice of any matter to which my attention is called.
§ MR. H. H. FOWLER (Wolverhampton, E.)I will ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has been advised by the Irish Law Officers of the Crown that the police are legally entitled to follow about persons against whom they have no warrants, and against whom no proceedings whatever have been taken?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI apprehend that the manner in which the police are carrying out their duties is perfectly legal.
§ MR. H. H. FOWLERThat is not what I asked. Has the right hon. Gentleman been advised by the Law Officers of the Crown that this course is legal?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURIf the right hon. Gentleman means to ask whether I have, in a formal manner, obtained the opinion of the Law Officers, I must remind him that it is contrary to the universal practice to make public the confidential reports of the Law Officers. But if he means to ask whether I have taken pains to satisfy myself that the course pursued by the police in Ireland is legal, I have so satisfied myself.
§ MR. H. H. FOWLERThat was not my question. I am aware that it is not customary to give the House the confidential opinions of the Law Officers of the Crown, but it is customary to tell the House whether the Law Officers have been consulted.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURDoes the right hon. Gentleman mean to ask whether I have had a case stated for the opinion of the Irish Law Officers?
§ MR. H. H. FOWLERYes; that is my question.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI have not had the opinion of the Law Officers on a case stated, and it is not usual to have a I case stated unless there is some doubt as to the legality. I have taken pains to convince myself that there is no doubt, and, therefore, I have not made a formal request to have a case stated.
§ MR. SHAW LEFEVRE (Bradford, Central)Will the right hon. Gentleman lay the instructions issued to the police on the Table of the House?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOUROf course, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows, it depends on the facts of each particular case what course is pursued, and I appre- 1027 hend that there is no general regulation covering the peculiarities of each case.
§ MR. SHAW LEFEVREI understood the right hon. Gentleman to say he had given such instructions?
§ MR. T. M. HEALYThe right hon. Gentleman stated he had himself given general instructions. I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will state what those instructions are?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI am responsible for the general course pursued by the constabulary in Ireland, and I have no desire in any way to minimise that responsibility; but I am, naturally, not consulted as to the particular course to be taken by particular constables in proceedings with regard to particular individuals.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYWill the right hon. Gentleman add to his general instructions a direction to the effect that the constables are to keep out of ear shot. That is a most vital question?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURNo, Sir. I am desirous of limiting as far as possible this method of dealing with crime, and I shall be most glad——
§ MR. DILLONYou have no right to call it crime.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURAnd I shall most gladly take advantage of any presumption that may arise in favour of any individual who is shadowed; but, having in view the terrible suffering produced by wholesale boycotting, I can not undertake altogether to dispense with it.
§ MR. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.)I will ask whether Mr. M'Crae, of Dundee, has been shadowed from Newbridge to Clongorey, and whether the rigid hon. Gentleman has any reason to suspect Mr. M'Crae of crime?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI have never heard of Mr. M'Crae. It may argue myself unknown.
§ MR. GILL (Louth, S.)Will the right hon. Gentleman state to the House in what manner this shadowing operates to prevent boycotting?
§ MR. DILLONI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will order the police in Ireland to discontinue the system of shadowing individuals? In asking this let me express a hope that as the right hon. Gentleman admits himself having directed this system, he will, after the 1028 Debate that has taken place, order it to be discontinued?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI do not know that I can do more than repeat the answer I have just given. No individuals are "shadowed" in Ireland unless they are known to be actively engaged in promoting boycotting and intimidation, or other crime. I am desirous, as far as possible, of limiting this method of dealing with crime, and will most gladly take advantage of any presumption that may arise in favour of any individuals so shadowed; but, having in view the terrible suffering produced by wholesale boycotting, I cannot undertake altogether to dispense with it.
§ MR. DILLONThen I say it is a brutal and abominable outrage, and if there is bloodshed it will rest on your head.
§ MR. PARNELLThe right hon. Gentleman said he would gladly take ad vantage of any presumption in favour of the people who are shadowed. Will he also take advantage of the English presumption that every person accused of crime is innocent until ho is proved to be guilty?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURWill the hon. Gentleman undertake that these people will not repeat the crime?
§ MR. DILLONThe right hon. Gentle man has no right to charge us with having committed crime.
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, order!
§ MR. DILLONcontinued to address the' House, but the uproar was so great that what he said did not reach the Reporters' Gallery. He was, however, under stood to say:—The right hon. Gentle man has accused men of crime who are as innocent as the right hon. Gentleman himself is of crime. I ask him whether he will stand up and apologise to me for what he has said?
§ MR. J. O'CONNORThe right hon. Gentleman ought to apologise.
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, order!
§ MR. DILLONHe must apologise to me.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Gentleman is committing a breach of order which, in his excitement, possibly he has not noticed. But I am bound to point out to the House that when I rise it is customary for hon. Members to resume their seats. I was only going to ob serve that this series of questions are 1029 taking rather an argumentative form, and are really becoming a sort of Debate which gives rise to great excitement.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURIf I am at all responsible for producing the condition of heat in which the House finds itself by the character of my answers I greatly regret it, and I will substitute for the word "crime" the words "boycotting" and "intimidation" I have no doubt as to the description that should be applied to those offences; but as the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down does not consider those offences to be crimes, I will substitute the words themselves.
§ SIR G. TREVELYANWith regard to this new method of shadowing, which the right Gentleman says is for the purpose of preventing intimidation, I will ask him whether lie proposes to apply it to the land agents who are suspected of putting pressure on tenants under threat of eviction to agree to buy under the Ashbourne Act.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI should be glad to stop intimidation in Ireland by whomsoever or on whomsoever. With regard to the statement that "shadowing" is a new practice, I understand that it was largely indulged in by the right hon. Gentleman himself when he was Chief Secretary.
§ MR. W. E. GLADSTONE (Edinburgh, Mid Lothian)Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to lay on the Table an account of the cases in which the practice was indulged in by his predecessors?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI will consider it.
§ MR. J. O'CONNORAs the right hon. Gentleman has withdrawn the word "crime," perhaps he will find it consistent with good taste to apologise for the insult offered.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI did not with draw the word "crime." I stated that the offences against which this practice was used were largely boycotting and intimidation. I consider these to be serious crimes, but I was unwilling to beg the question by the use of a particular term.
§ MR. OLNINGHAME GRAHAM (Lanark, N. W.)I may ask whether, in view of the extraordinary excitement manifested by the Front Opposition 1030 Bench on this matter, the right hon. Gentleman or the Home Secretary can state whether this shadowing was not indulged in after the disturbances in London two years ago; and whether, on that occasion, the Front Opposition Bench gave tongue at all?
§ MR. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.)I rise to order. The hon. Member opposite (Mr. Gill) has several times accused the right hon. Gentleman of telling lies.
§ MR. SPEAKERI am not aware of such observations made across the floor of the House, but if they were made, I should consider them as being highly un parliamentary; and, in the interests of order, if any further information is desired I appeal to the House that it may be asked for in the form of regular questions, so that conduct which is improper and unbecoming may be avoided.
THE EARL OF CAVAN (Somerset, S.)As shadowing has been customary in the case of deputations sent over to Ireland from England will the right hon. Gentle man take care that in the case of the other deputations, against the members of which no offences are alleged, there shall be no renewal of this practice?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI think the noble Lord is mistaken in supposing that the deputations have been shadowed. I rather think too much importance has been attached to their proceedings.
§ MR. DILLONsubsequently rose and said: I apologise to you, Mr. Speaker, and express my regret for not resuming my seat. I was labouring under very groat irritation at the time.