HC Deb 27 May 1889 vol 336 cc1215-9

Order for Consideration, as amended, read.

MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)

I hope the right hon. Gentleman has reconsidered his decision with regard to the extension of this Bill to Ireland. I venture to submit that if the Scotch harbours are closed to steam trawlers and sailing trawlers, they will all go to the Irish coast. We admit that this Bill will be a great boon to Scotland, but how can we be asked to assent to it if the result will be to inflict upon us all the Scotch trawlers, and allow them to prey upon our harbours and fisheries? Our only chance to secure legislation for Ireland is to avail ourselves of English and Scotch legislation. I believe that Sir Thomas Brady, for whom I have the greatest respect, still holds opinions on the trawling questions which scientific evidence has now left high and dry on the shore. I think it is desirable we shall have fuller information on this subject so far as it affects Ireland. I have no desire to offer any opposition to a measure intended for the benefit of Scotch fishermen, but in the interests of Irish fishermen I must object to special advantages being conferred upon the former and not on the latter. As to the mischief done by these trawlers I have heard of enormous quantities of fish spawn being taken up by them and used on the land for manure, instead of remaining in the sea to enrich the deep. Scotchmen have no claim or right to destroy Ireland, and as I think this Bill as at present framed will serious injure Ireland, I move that the Bill be re-committed in order to extend its provisions to Ireland.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be re-committed with respect of Clauses 1, 2, and 6."

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I think the hon. and learned Gentleman is under a misapprehension as to the scope of this Bill, and as to the attitude I have assumed towards it. I did not in the first instance object to its being extended to Ireland; all I asked for was an opportunity of considering the question, and of consulting the Irish Fishery Board. There is always—I think the hon. and learned Gentleman will admit—great difficulty, owing to the difference between the Scotch legal system on the one hand and the English and Irish on the other, in extending to England or Ireland a measure drafted with a view to its application to Scotland alone. I sympathize with the fears of the hon. and learned Member, and agree that it would be a monstrous thing if steam trawlers were driven from Scotland to Ireland. I think the best thing would be to bring in a Bill for Ireland on the lines of the present measure. That would have the effect of avoiding the misfortune which the hon. and learned Gentleman anticipates. There is one point which I wish especially to commend to the notice of the hon. Member. He says that if this Bill passes into law the steam trawlers which now frequent the coast of Scotland will be driven to the Irish coast. If that were so, I admit it would be a real Irish grievance. But what is the existing state of things, irrespective of the amendment of the law proposed by my hon. Friend behind me? Trawling on the coasts of Ireland is now carried on practically by sailors belonging to and manned by Irishmen, and if the pro posal of the hon. and learned Member were adopted it would practically destroy this industry.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Not outside the three-mile limit.

MR. BALFOUR

I imagine that a great part of the trawling takes place within the three-mile limit on the West Coast. I think it would be a very serious thing if this House were without grave consideration to destroy a substantial part of an industry which we are specially desirous of fostering—namely, Irish fisheries. The hon. Gentleman has spoken as if science had proved that trawling destroyed the fishing industry; but that has not been the real outcome of scientific research. He speaks of fish spawn being destroyed in great quantities. I believe that it is not the spawn of edible fish which is thus destroyed. I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will be satisfied with the suggestion I have made after very careful thought, for that seems to me to be the best way out of the difficulty.

* MR. MARJORIBANKS (Berwickshire)

I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will favourably consider the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think he need be afraid of Scotch trawlers going over to Ireland. The prohibition of trawling by this Bill is very small; it simply prevents it within the three-mile limit, and of that there is at present a very small amount indeed. The Bill, too, will only have the effect of checking steam trawling; it will not interfere with sailing trawling. The House need not be in the least afraid that the spawn of edible sea fish is being destroyed by trawling. It has been proved to demonstration that the spawn of edible sea fish is hatched either floating on the surface or in suspension in the water, except that of herrings and sprats which is generally found on rocky bottoms on where it is impossible to trawl. The spawn which is brought up by trawlers is not that of fish fit for human food, and it does no harm to destroy it. I hope Irish Members will allow this Bill to pass. It is supported by Scotch Members, who have not in recent years at least, been small friends of Ireland, and they hope in a future Parliament to be still greater friends.

MR. P. A. CHANCE (Kilkenny)

I do not think that the right hon. Gentle man has answered the speech of my hon. and learned Friend, and in view of the admitted ignorance of the Irish Fishery Board on questions affecting the fisheries especially on the Western Coast, I think we should insist on having further information on the subject.

MR. ESSLEMONT (Aberdeen)

I hope my hon. and learned Friend will not press his Amendment. I am sure the Scotch Members are not willing to inflict any hardship on Ireland, and after the assurance given by the right hon Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, that he will take immediate steps, if found necessary, to prevent any damage being done to Irish Fisheries, I trust the hon. and learned Gentleman will withdraw his Motion. The Bill is one of the greatest importance to Scotland. It deals with a matter that has been before the people for a period of ten years, and there will be the gravest disappointment to them if they are deprived of the benefits of this legislation.

MR. T. M. HEALY

After the expression of opinion which has been given, I do not propose to offer any further opposition. I take it that the pledge of the right hon. Gentleman, who has put down trawling to some extent in Scotland, is that he will bring in a Bill dealing with Ireland, based on the same lines as the Bill introduced by the hon. and gallant Member for Argyleshire, which absolutely prohibits steam trawling. On the faith of that assurance, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment, and I can only, in conclusion, express the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will bring his influence to bear upon Sir Thomas Brady and induce him to deviate from his opinions on the atrocious system of trawling.

MR. BALFOUR

My proposal is to stop steam trawling, with, of course, powers to the Fishery Board in certain cases to relax the prohibition.

* MR. MURPHY (Dublin, St. Patrick's)

I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary will take some steps to secure further information as to the effects of steam trawling on the Irish coasts before he commits himself to any undertaking that he will introduce restrictive legislation on a subject about which there is the greatest variety of opinion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Bill, as amended, considered.

Bill read the third time, and passed.