HC Deb 29 June 1888 vol 327 cc1725-7
MR. JAMES STUART (Shoreditch, Hoxton)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been called to the report of the case of Cornelius Curtain and others on Wednesday last, when the Lord Chief Baron is reported as using the following words:— But the question was whether the real object and meaning of the Plan of Campaign, as developed in the speech of Mr. Dillon in October, 1886, was matter that would be taken judicial notice of by the Judges without evidence. He would like to have that question argued; and, whether, since Mr. Dillon was convicted of conspiracy at Dundalk before County Court Judge Kisbey without any evidence as to the object and meaning of the Plan of Campaign other than that of the speech referred to, he will take any steps to secure that the point of law shall be argued before the Judges, and their decision thereon ascertained without delay?

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. MADDEN) (Dublin University)

(who replied) said: Nothing fell from the Lord Chief Baron, in the case referred to, tending to throw the slightest doubt on the sufficiency of the evidence on which Mr. Dillon was convicted. On the contrary, in the course of the arguments he referred to evidence, such as was given in that case, as sufficient to prove the nature of the Plan of Campaign. [An hon. MEMBER: No, no!] The Government have no power to take the course suggested by the Question,

MR. JAMES STUART

Will the hon. and learned Gentleman lay on the Table of this House the Evidence and the Judgment in the case of Mr. John Dillon's appeal?

MR. MADDEN

The hon. Gentleman should put a Motion on the Paper for a Return in the ordinary way.

MR. JAMES STUART

If I move for it, will the Government give it?

MR. MADDEN

When the Motion is put on the Paper in the ordinary way I will consider it.

MR. MAURICE HEALY (Cork)

May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman on what authority he states that the Lord Chief Baron referred to the evidence in Mr. John Dillon's case; and is it not the fact that the evidence which the Chief Baron referred to was that of "Blunt v. Byrne"?

MR. MADDEN

I did not state that the Chief Baron referred to the evidence which had been given in Mr. Dillon's case. What I stated was that he referred, in the course of the argument that was the subject of the Question, to evidence of the same class as that given in Mr. Dillon's case as being satisfactory. I read from the Report, which I obtained in the ordinary way, in answer to an inquiry sent over as to what really occurred. I am informed that the Lord Chief Baron referred to evidence as to the illegality of the Plan of Campaign as given in the "Blunt v. Byrne" case, and in that respect the hon. and learned Member is accurate; but further on, in the course of argument, he is stated to have suggested to counsel for the prisoner that by obtaining a copy of United Ireland containing a statement of what the Plan of Campaign was, that would tell him all about it. And that evidence, in addition to the speeches which were proved in Mr. Dillon's case, constituted the evidence given in that case, and was the class of evidence to which the Lord Chief Baron referred in contradistinction to the evidence in the case before the Court?

THE LORD MAYOR OF DUBLIN (Mr. SEXTON) (Belfast, W.)

May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman what is the ordinary way in which the Government obtain Reports of this character; and, further, whether, in order to put an end to the controversy in regard to the terms of the Lord Chief Baron's Judgment, he will lay the Judgment of the Lord Chief Baron on the Table?

MR. MADDEN

My answer to that is the same which I have already given. We obtain the best information we can as to what has occurred. If the hon. Member wishes for a Return—I am not here to undertake on behalf of the Government—he can move for it in the ordinary way.

MR. MAURICE HEALY

I wish to ask the hon. and learned Gentleman, whether it is not the fact that the account which he gives of the Lord Chief Baron's Judgment conflicts with the account given in the public Press?

MR. MADDEN

No, Sir; I am not aware of that.

Subsequently,

MR. SEXTON said

Might I ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, if it is not a fact that a reporter in Dublin was engaged by direction of the Government to take a special note of the Judgment of the Chief Baron in the Killeagh case; and, whether the right hon. Gentleman did not quote from that Report in the course of the debate on Tuesday last?

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. A J. BALFOUR) (Manchester, E.)

My impression is that there was no special Government Report at all.

MR. SEXTON

But did the Government engage a reporter to take a special note of the Judgment on this occasion, and did they quote from it the other night?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I have no ground for believing that such is the case.

MR. SEXTON

I will ask the Question again on Monday.