HC Deb 18 June 1888 vol 327 cc556-62

(Mr. Courtney, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Jackson.)

COMMITTEE. [Progress 15th June.]

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 4 (When claim to be made and proved, and on what value).

Amendment proposed, In page 2, line 4, to add—"The said Commissioners may require that no consignment or parcel of wine as to which a claim is made under this section shall include wine of different values."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. S. WILLIAMSON (, &c.) Kilmarnock

said, he would suggest that "invoice" would be a better term than "consignment."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN) (St. George's, Hanover Square)

said, he would be quite prepared to add the word "invoice."

Amendment proposed, to amend the proposed Amendment, by adding after the word "parcel," the words "or invoice."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK (Whitehaven)

said, he had given Notice of a Motion to omit the clause; but he had received an intimation from those who in this matter he represented that having regard to the fact that the principle of an ad valorem duty was established by the 3rd clause, objectionable and remarkable as that was, yet, it being established, they had requested him not to pursue any further his objection to the Bill. He should not, therefore, move any of the Motions for the omission of clauses standing in his name.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 (Power to buy for the Crown).

MR. S. WILLIAMSON (, &c.) Kilmarnock

said, he thought that to make the meaning quite clear, some words were required, so that the importer might not think the price meant exclusive of bottling and packing.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 15, after the word "gallon," to insert the words "including cost of bottling, packages, and all charges"—(Mr. S. Williamson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)

said, this point had been carefully considered by the Legal Officers of the Customs, and they were of opinion that, as the clause stood, it quite conveyed what the hon. Member wished to accomplish, that seized goods included all packages; and the words proposed would rather tend to imply a doubt where no doubt in fact existed, and rather complicate than clear up matters.

MR. S. WILLIAMSON

said, that, though not quite satisfied, he was quite ready to withdraw his Amendment, deferring to legal opinion.

MR. CHILDERS (Edinburgh, S.)

said, he had no wish to oppose the clause; but he would renew his suggestion that when the Customs elected to buy goods valued for ad valorem duty they should do so with an addition of 10 per cent.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN) (St. George's, Hanover Square)

said, he was aware his right hon. Friend made the suggestion the other day; but he did not see why they should be influenced by the considerations then put forward, and that a man should pay an additional 10 per cent when the goods were of the declared value of 30s. a-dozen. Surely it would be illogical to do so.

MR. CHILDERS

said, he did not press the matter; but the rule was that formerly in force here, and was universally in force in foreign countries.

MR. GOSCHEN

said, there was a distinction between a fixed duty as in this case and a fluctuating ad valorem duty, and in this case the value was more easily ascertained.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 7 agreed to.

Clause 8 (Definition of market value).

On the Motion of Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the following Amendments made:—In page 2, line 25, after "wine," insert "purchased and;" in line 26, after "paid," insert "or contracted to be paid."

MR. S. WILLIAMSON (, &c.) Kilmarnock

said, he had an Amendment to the clause, and the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had an Amendment of the same import. Believing, however, that his own form of words was the better, he would move the Amendment.

Amendment proposed, In page 2, line 26, after the word "him," to insert the words "in bond, or the cost to him bottled in cases or packages, including freight and all foreign transit charges to place the wine in bond at the port of discharge."—(Mr. S. Williamson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)

said, practically this Amendment would be accomplished by the words his right hon Friend proposed to insert subsequently. He would point out that if a case of wine imported by a private consumer was to be admitted at its market value in bond, it would not have been necessary to separate the two cases of wine imported by a consumer and by a merchant. But it was felt that in the ease of the consumer the invoice and documents would show exactly what he was to pay for it, and probably the cost so determined would be rather higher than the cost in bond as imported by a merchant or trader. The question had been carefully considered, and he was advised by the Legal Officers that the words after "Customs," "including freight and all other charges," would accomplish what the hon. Member desired.

MR. S. WILLIAMSON

said, he would admit the words were to the same import; but he thought his Amendment necessary, because, although there was the word "consumer," there was no guarantee that the consumer was not a small trader also. Still, he had no wish to press his Amendment.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN) (St. George's, Hanover Square)

said, he could assure the hon. Member that the words, "all other charges," included the point he alluded to.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 30, after the word "Customs," to insert the words, "but including freight and all other charges."

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9 agreed to.

Clause 10 (As to medicated wine).

MR. S. WILLIAMSON (, &c.) Kilmarnock

said, he supposed that all wines taken for health were in a certain sense medical, but he proposed that wines of a special medical character should bear a descriptive label as such.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 4, after the word "wine," to insert the words "and labelled as such."—(Mr. S. Williamson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)

said, he thought the words proposed did make the intention more clear.

MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK (Whitehaven)

said, he did not object to the Amendment; but he thought his right hon. Friend ought to explain what these extraordinary compounds were—"wine of a character usually sold as medicated or medical wine." He had never heard of it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might give some justification for introducing these compounds without the payment of duty. His own idea was that if he made an exception at all, he would subject these compounds to a double duty.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN) (St. George's, Hanover Square)

said, his right hon. Friend need not be afraid that these wines would ever be put on the table, or consumed with pleasure by any person. They were not wines, but drugs. Practically they were certain decoctions prescribed by doctors, and commonly known as medicated wines.

MR. CHILDERS (Edinburgh, S.)

asked, were there really any such among sparkling wines?

MR. GOSCHEN

said, he was advised there was a small proportion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 11 (Commissioners of Customs to act under Treasury).

MR. CHILDERS (Edinburgh, S.)

said, his impression was that the Customs always acted under the directions of the Treasury. What, then, was the object of the clause?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN) (St. George's, Hanover Square)

said, he really was unable to give a thorough explanation. If the right hon. Gentleman thought the clause would be better omitted, he had no objection; but, at the same time, the Solicitors to the Customs were very able men, and they suggested the clause. Still, he was bound to say he had no strong argument to support it.

MR. CHILDERS

said, not knowing why the draftsman had inserted the clause, he could not take the responsibility of moving to omit it. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would satisfy himself by the Report, that the words were necessary. If they were not necessary, their effect would probably be mischievous.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)

said, it was true the Customs always acted under the control of the Commissioners of the Treasury; but he understood that, on several occasions when these words had not been inserted, the House had demanded that they should be. The words were inserted rather to meet what was believed to be the wish of the House than because there was really any necessity for them.

MR. CHILDERS

said, the House had often made mistakes by the insertion of superfluous provisions in Bills. But he was content to let the matter rest until the Report stage.

MR. GOSCHEN

said, he would prefer not to leave anything over for Report, and the clause had better be omitted.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause be omitted,"—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer,)—put, and agreed to.

Clause 12 (Repeal) agreed to.

SIR ROBERT FOWLER (London)

said, the new clause he had to propose provided that in case an importer should be obliged to produce invoices, books, or documents in confirmation of his declaration of value, he should not be bound to produce such for the inspection of any Customs official who was also director, manager, or in any way engaged in the management of any co-operative association or firm dealing in wines and spirits. The object of the proposal was to meet the very natural feeling in the trade, that their books and trade transactions should not be submitted to a possible rival in trade. He would formally move the clause, though he would not press it now; but he would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider the grievance and the manner in which it could be met.

New Clause (Importer not bound to produce invoice and documents to directors of co-operative stores,)—(Sir Robert Fowler,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be now read a second time."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN) (St. George's, Hanover Square)

said, he quite appreciated the object of his hon. Friend and of those who had set him in motion. There doubtless would be an impropriety if traders were obliged to exhibit their books and papers to the examination of possible rivals in trade. But he would go somewhat further, and say it was not a satisfactory position for an officer of the Customs to be an official in the management of co-operative stores. He would undertake to look into the matter; but he should be sorry to insert a clause of this character in the Bill, for it might fairly be regarded as a slur upon the Customs Service. He would like to take the opportunity to testify to the honesty and steady fidelity with which officers of the Customs Service discharged their duties; there was no branch of the Civil Service upon which more reliance could be placed. It would appear to cast an undeserved slur upon the Service, to insert these words in an Act of Parliament. He would, however, inquire, and see if by regulation it was expedient to remove all possibility of officers being suspected of dealing with invoices, &c. for trade purposes.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow, at Two of the clock.