HC Deb 07 June 1888 vol 326 cc1401-3
MR. W. E. GLADSTONE (Edinburgh, Mid Lothian)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he is correctly reported in the Times of May 17th, 1888, to have said at Battersea on the 16th, in speaking of the persons shot at Mitchelstown— One of them at least unquestionably was killed by a ricochet shot, and— I believe that was true of other unfortunate victims in this calamitous struggle; what was the name of the person killed by the ricochet shot, and of the other unfortunate victims respectively; and, whether he will lay upon the Table a statement of the evidence or information on which he has asserted the fact and declared the belief above mentioned?

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR) (Manchester, E.)

I am correctly reported in The Times. The name of the person first referred to was Lonergan. The names of the other victims were Shinnick and Casey. The evidence on which I made the statement was contained in the Report of the Departmental Commission which inquired into the conduct of the police. From that Report it appears that it is physically impossible to fire a rifle out of the window from which the shooting took place in the direction of the place where Lonergan was standing; and impossible to do so in the direction of the places where Shinnick and Casey were standing, without either leaning out of the window, or standing back from the window and side ways to it. These posi- tions are both of them awkward and unnatural, and there is no evidence that either one or the other was adopted by the police. I stated, on a previous occasion, that I was prepared to show the Report confidentially to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Mr. John Morley). That offer I repeat to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian.

MR. W. E. GLADSTONE

Will the right hon. Gentleman lay the Report on the Table of the House, or such part of it as had reference to the allegations mentioned in the Question?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I am afraid I could not lay the Report on the Table; but I will consider the propriety of laying before the House that particular part of the Report to which I referred.

MR. W. E. GLADSTONE

And, possibly, if the right hon. Gentleman lays that particular part before the House, he will be good enough to have it accompanied by a slight tracing, which will give us some explanation of the positions he has alluded to.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

signified his assent.

MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)

inquired from the Speaker, whether it was not in accordance with the Rules of the House that when a Member of the Treasury Bench rose to reply to a Question with reference to a Report, and makes reference to that Report, he was not bound to lay the Report upon the Table?

MR. SPEAKER

There is no obligation of that nature as regards a confidential Report; but as to official or ordinary Reports, if a Minister quotes from them he is bound to lay them on the Table.

MR. T. M. HEALY

The right hon. Gentleman has stated that it is a Departmental Report. I presume it is the Report of the inquiry presided over by Colonel Turner.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

On the question of Order, I may remind the House I have not quoted from the Report.

MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

Did not District Inspector Irwin expressly declare that he had himself seen the constables break the windows in order to fire, and then take deliberate aim?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

It is quite possible that evidence may have been given; but I do not see how it affects the statement I have just made.

MR. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.)

Did not the police themselves swear that they took deliberate aim?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I am not aware that they swore that they took particular aim at the people who were killed. [Cries of "Yes, they did!"]

SIR WILFRID LAWSON (Cumberland, Cockermouth)

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, in reference to his speech, whether, if he did not quote the Report, he did not make it the basis of his answer to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Certainly I made it the basis, and I distinguish that operation from quoting it. I presume that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) is capable of making that distinction himself.