HC Deb 09 August 1888 vol 330 cc249-52

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 5 (Costs of promoting or opposing Bills to require sanction of meetings).

THE LORD MAYOR OF DUBLIN (Mr. SEXTON) (Belfast, W.)

said, the Bill was modelled on the Act of 1872; but in line 27 of this clause there was a divergence from that Act. The proposal here was to be submitted to the Local Government Board or the Chief Secretary, and they might disapprove; and they were to have a month or as much time as might be necessary for consideration. It was undesirable that the period should be unlimited, for the delay might render nugatory any proceedings in reference to a Private Bill. A month was surely long enough; otherwise the Governing Body would never really know whether the authorities disapproved or not.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. MADDEN) (Dublin University)

said, in ordinary cases a month would be sufficient; but it might happen that a project might be of such magnitude that that time would not suffice; and then there would be an advantage in having some elasticity in the system. As a rule, a month would be a sufficient interval.

MR. SEXTON

suggested that some words should be inserted, so that the Governing Body should receive information, and not be left in suspense for an uncertain interval.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)

said, it was rather difficult to make the alteration now; but he would consult with the draftsman to-morrow, and see if anything of the kind could be done.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 6 (Vote of the electors).

THE LORD MAYOR OF DUBLIN (Mr. SEXTON) (Belfast, W.)

said, in order to save the borough from the expense and vexation of a poll at the instance of individuals entertaining some crotchet, though the feeling of the ratepayers might be almost unanimous in one direction, the objection should be on the part of some reasonable number of ratepayers—say, a dozen.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 21, to leave out the word "person," and insert the words "twelve persons."

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)

said, the difficulty about accepting that was that the words of the clause followed the lines of the English Act, and he could not assent to the alteration without some consideration.

MR. SEXTON

said, the English Act was passed when the ideas of local government were not so advanced as they were now. Take Dublin as an illustration. Public opinion was generally in favour of the action of the Town Council; but it might happen that because the judgments of some two or three persons were not satisfied, the ratepayers might be put to the heavy cost of a poll. He would not press it, however.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, To add, at end of Clause—"All expenses properly and necessarily incurred in giving notice, and in convening and holding a meeting in regard to this section, and all expenses necessarily and properly incurred in taking a poll and providing polling stations, shall, whether the Bill is proceeded with or not, be charged to the borough funds or rates to which the expenses in favour of a proposal or in opposing the Bill are made chargeable under this Act."—(Sir James Corry.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. JACKSON

said, the Amendment had not come before him in time to consult with his Colleagues in reference to it; and, therefore, he hoped that, though he accepted it, it might be held as still open for consideration.

MR. SEXTON

said, the Amendment was absolutely necessary, for it might happen that although on a poll it might be found that a majority of the ratepayers differed from the Corporation, still the latter might have acted unanimously and in perfect good faith for what they considered the good of the borough, and it would be a grievous hardship if individual members should be saddled with expenses that clearly ought to fall upon the common fund.

MR. JACKSON

said, that if the provision were necessary here, then it ought to be necessary in the English Act. He did not know that there were any complaints in this respect of the English Act, though he had known a case in which the action of the Corporation was not supported on a poll, and the expenses were paid, though from what fund he could not say.

MR. SEXTON

said, he could not admit that what in either case would be a hardship should be submitted to in Ireland because it had not been complained of in England.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining Clauses agreed to.

Bill reported.

THE LORD MAYOR OF DUBLIN (Mr. SEXTON) (Belfast, W.)

said, he might fairly ask that the example set by the Government might be followed, and that the third reading should now be taken.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)

said, he must ask the House to defer Consideration until the next Sitting. He had assented to an Amendment without having had an opportunity of consulting the draftsman, and had promised to consider another. It would be improper for him to assent to the Bill outright, without careful consideration of the whole of the circumstances it was intended to cover. There would be no actual delay in letting the consideration of Report stand over for a day.

Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.