§ Bill read 3a (according to order).
§ Moved, "That the Bill do pass."
§ THE EARL OF MILLTOWN moved in Clause 4, relating to newspaper reports 1388 of proceedings of public meetings and of certain bodies and persons privileged, to insert after the words providing that nothing in that section should protect the publication of any matter not of public concern the words "nor of any matter not published for the public benefit." He did not see why they should be more anxious for the interest of the newspapers than the newspaper proprietors themselves.
§ Amendment moved, in Clause 4, page 2, line 16, after ("concern") to insert ("nor of any matter not published for the public benefit.")—(The Earl of Milltown.)
LORD MONKSWELLsaid, he must oppose the Amendment. What the journalists wanted was that the law should be clear, and that they should know what they could publish and what they could not. It was sometimes desirable that there should be reports of the proceedings before local bodies with regard to the conduct of some prominent official, but there were also cases where it was not desirable. The great difficulty was to know where to draw the line, and the journalists considered that the words "public concern" allowed them to say where the line should be drawn.
§ On Question? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 12; Not-Contents 19: Majority 7.
| CONTENTS. | |
| Buckingham and Chandos, D. | de Ros, L. |
| Ellenborough, L. | |
| Macnaghten, L. | |
| Kingston, E. | Stanley of Alderley, L. |
| Milltown, E. [Teller.] | Stratheden and Campbell, L. |
| Tyrone L. (M. Waterford.) | |
| Balfour, L. | |
| Brabourne, L. [Teller.] | Ventry, L. |
| NOT-CONTENTS. | |
| Halsbury, L. (L. Chancellor.) | Elphinstone, L. |
| FitzGerald, L. | |
| Cadogan, E. (L. Privy Seal.) | Hartismere, L. (L. Henniker.) |
| Herschell, L. | |
| Exeter, M. | Hopetoun, L. (E. Hopetoun.) |
| Salisbury, M. | |
| Kensington, L. [Teller.] | |
| Brownlow, E. | |
| Waldegrave, E. | Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.) |
| Cross, V. | Knutsford, L. |
| Oxenbridge, V. | Monkswell, L. [Teller.] |
| Shute, L. (V. Barrington.) | |
| Chaworth, L. (E. Meath.) |
§
Amendment moved, after Clause 4, to insert the following Clause:—
Where any person makes a speech to a meeting, and a report containing libellous words, purporting to be a report of such speech, is published in any newspaper, then, on proof that the words so published, or words of like import, were uttered by the person making such speech, that person shall, in the event of any civil proceedings being instituted against him for libel in respect of such words, be deemed for the purposes of such proceedings to have himself written and published the libellous words attributed to him in such report, or words of like import. The report so published shall be primâ facie evidence of the words therein attributed to the speaker having been spoken, but it shall be competent to him to prove any inaccuracy in the report, or any matter explaining the words attributed to him. Such proceedings, if taken, shall be in substitution for, and not in addition to, any proceedings, whether civil or criminal, that may be instituted against him."—(The Marquess of Waterford.)
THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)said, he was in favour of the Amendment.
§ LORD FITZGERALD, in taking objection to the Amendment, complimented the noble and learned Lord (Lord Monkswell) on the ability and skill with which he had conducted the Bill through the House.
§ On Question? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 24; Not-Contents 5: Majority 19.
| CONTENTS. | |
| Halsbury, L. (L. Chancellor.) | Brabourne, L. |
| Chaworth, L. (E. Meath.) | |
| Cadogan, E (L. Privy Seal.) | de Ros, L. [Teller.] |
| Ellenborough, L. | |
| Buckingkam and Chandos, D. | Elphinstone, L. |
| FitzGerald, L. | |
| Hopetoun, L. (E. Hopetoun.) | |
| Exeter, M. | |
| Salisbury, M. | Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.) |
| Brownlow, E. | Macnaghten, L. |
| Kingston, E. | Shute, L. (V. Barrington.) |
| Milltown, E. | |
| Waldegrave, E. | Stanley of Alderley, L. |
| Tyrone, L. (M. Waterford.) [Teller.] | |
| Cross, V. | |
| Ventry, L. | |
| Balfour, L. |
| NOT-CONTENTS. | |
| Oxenbridge, V. | Monkswell, L. [Teller.] |
| Herschell, L. | Stratheden and Campbell, L. |
| Kensington, L. [Teller.] |
§
LORD HERSCHELL moved to insert the following Proviso:—
Provided that, in England, if it can be proved to the satisfaction of the Court that the speaker did not know and had no reasonable cause to suppose or believe, and could not with reasonable care have ascertained, that his speech would be published, he shall not be deemed to have authorized such publication.
He thought it was not fair that a man should be deemed to authorize a publication he never dreamed of authorizing.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said, he doubted very much whether the noble and learned Lord could move an Amendment at this stage without Notice.
LORD MONKSWELLsaid, as an instance of an unauthorized report, that on one occasion he was at a semi-political dinner, and a report of three-quarters of a column was published altogether without anyone's knowledge.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS)I do not suppose anyone would utter a slander at dinner.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that if words were slanderous they were slanderous whether spoken in the presence of reporters or not. He thought the clause would have a very salutary effect.
§ Amendment negatived.
§
On the Motion of The Marquess of SALISBURY, the following Proviso was inserted:—
Provided also that no proceeding under this section shall be taken more than two months after the words were uttered.
§
On the Motion of Lord MONKSWELL, the following Proviso was also inserted:—
Provided also that the speaker shall be entitled to any defence of privilege arising from the occasion on which the words were spoken which he would have had in case the spoken words had been of themselves actionable.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved a Proviso excluding from the operation of the clause the debates in both Houses of Parliament.
LORD HERSCHELLasked why, when they were making law of this kind for 1391 public meetings, Members in this House and in the House of Commons should not equally be made amenable for statements they made in Parliament that were of a like nature?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYpointed out that Parliament had the power in its own hands of dealing with the utterances of its Members, and he thought it would be better to reserve that power to the two Houses of Parliament.
§ Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, he hoped that hon. Members in "another place" would adhere to the wording of Clause 4 as it came up to their Lordships' House. He trusted they would restore the useful words which the noble Lord had somehow or other contrived to excise.
§ Bill passed, and sent to the Commons; and to be printed as amended. (No. 252.)