HC Deb 28 February 1887 vol 311 cc834-42

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10,560, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Science and Art Department, and of the Establishments connected therewith.

MR. PARNELL (Cork)

In reference to the suggestion just made by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House (Mr. W. H. Smith) that we should take some Votes which may not be objected to, and especially this Science and Art Vote, I would wish to say that I do not think it is fair to other hon. Members of the House, and particularly to absent Members of the House, that we should go on when there is a heavy Vote on the list like the Irish Constabulary Vote, one which, from the nature of the case, is likely to take up a very considerable time, which has been skipped over. I am not complaining of the postponement of that Vote, because it is manifestly too late to take it; but it would not be fair to skip over that Vote, and then proceed to take other Votes when hon. Members who would take an interest in the subsequent Votes would naturally suppose that they would not come on. It was not at all expected that this very Vote for the Science and Art Department would have been reached to-night, and there are circumstances of considerable interest in reference to this Vote which some of my hon. Friends would have liked to have had in hand. We have here a Vote for £10,560 for the Science and Art Department, and I think it would have been only proper to have heard some statement from the responsible officials in connection with this matter. If there is a responsible Irish official in connection with this Vote—which I very much doubt—I should have liked to have had some explanation of it, especially at a time when the explanation could be given to the Irish public through the Press. This question of Science and Art in Ireland has been one which has been upon the Parliamentary carpet for a great number of years, and we have never been able to get any satisfaction out of the Government in reference thereto. I understand that the whole of the Vote does not apply to Ireland, and in that case it is additionally unfair to British Members who may have been beguiled away by the probability—the certainty, under all the circumstances of the case—that this Vote could not possibly be reached tonight. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith) whether it is fair to hon. Members to take a Vote in which they are most interested, and many of them especially in view of the fact that their absence has been procured by skipping over the Constabulary Vote? I know of no practice which is more objectionable than when, after half-past 12 at night—it is now 10 minutes to 1—a Minister gets up and Bays—"I will not take any Votes that are strongly objected to, but I will take any Votes that are not objected to." The consequence is that many hon. Members, who have gone away under the idea that Votes in which they are interested cannot possibly be reached, are punished when they come back and find that they have been beguiled and deceived by the Secretary to the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Leader of the House. In the interests of absent Members, I beg to move, Sir, that you do now report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Parnell.)

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Derby)

Some of these Votes, at all events, might be taken. I think that the Science and Art Vote is an important Vote, but there might be others. The right hon. Gen- tleman has undertaken not to take the Constabulary Vote or the Education Vote; but there might be others which might be taken, such as those for the Diplomatic Service, for Grants in Aid to certain Colonies, and for Pauper Lunatics in Scotland.

MR. JAMES STUART (Shoreditch, Hoxton)

If the Government persist in going on with the Science and Art Department Vote, I shall be obliged to support the Motion for reporting Progress, because it will be in the recollection of the Government that the discussion on the Vote itself in the last Session was taken, I think, about 3 o'clock in the morning, and there was no opportunity given for its discussion by hon. Members interested. I am very deeply interested, and certain other hon. Members I know are also interested, in the question of science schools, and the whole of the questions referred to in this Vote. No opportunity of discussing these questions has been given for a year, and no opportunity is afforded to us now, or is likely to be afforded to us, to bring on a Resolution on the matter. It is a matter of deep importance and interest to many hon. Members; and if the attempt to take the Vote now be persevered in, I shall be obliged to support the Motion for reporting Progress.

MR. W. H. SMITH

I will not enter into a contest with hon. Gentlemen opposite on repeated Motions for reporting Progress, because it would only involve delay and we should not do any good. But let us get forward with some Business at all events. In acceding to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell) that the Constabulary Vote should not be taken to-night, I followed precedent in endeavouring, as far as I could, to meet the views of hon. Gentlemen when a question of considerable importance was coming under discussion. I would desire to meet the convenience of the House as far as possible; but the House must be aware that there is very little time for discussing these questions. There should be ample opportunity for the discussion of Votes in Committee of Supply; but circumstances compel us to get on now with as proper and reasonable a despatch as possible. I must remark that no general discussion can be taken on Education tonight on the Vote for Science and Art—it must be confined to the particular item. If the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell) will be so good as to withdraw his Motion, I think that by the general consent of the House we may take the unopposed Votes, such, as have been suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt).

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)

I share very much in the feeling that must be entertained by the majority of the Committee that it is time to go to bed, and that must also be the view of Members of the Administration, seeing that they have a proposal among their New Rules that we should never sit after half-past 12. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury now complains that there is very little time left for the discussion of these Votes. That may be very true; but even he will not say that it is our fault. We are not responsible for these Estimates not being put down before tonight. Had they been set down earlier we should have made by this time considerable progress. And now I would appeal to the practical common sense of the Government, and to our experience of past years. The right hon. Gentleman says there are certain Votes that are practically unopposed, and that will take but a few minutes to pass. Well, if that is so, then they will occupy but a few minutes on another day. I appeal to the past experience of the Government; this kind of thing has happened before, and with this invariable result—that a very great deal more time has been consumed in fighting over whether we should or should not adjourn than has eventually been found necessary to pass the Votes in question. Under these circumstances, I hope that, as a practical man, the right hon. Gentleman, will allow us now to report Progress.

MR. M. J. KENNY (Tyrone, Mid)

I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith) that there really are most important Votes remaining on the Paper. The Government have made miraculous progress; they have obtained 12 Votes, a most unusual number. I have often known a Government thankful at having passed one Vote in a night. There is one Vote remaining that will not give rise to discussion, or, at least, I do not know if Scotch Members may have something to say about Scotch Lunatics; but, so far as I know, it is the only Vote not likely to be contested or discussed. I really think the Government might be satisfied. As to time, there is until the end of March to dispose of the few Votes that are left.

MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.)

I venture to corroborate what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell) as to the unfairness to Members not now present of taking Votes at this hour that stand in order after the Police Vote. It was only this evening that application was made to me by an hon. Member, who knew I had experience in such matters, to express an opinion as to how many Votes would be taken, and whether any Business was likely to be taken after half-past 12. I expressed an opinion that we were not likely to get beyond the Police Vote to-night. I may also say that, having listened to the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, when asking the Committee to agree to the Bankruptcy Vote, such Vote then passed without further discussion. I must, however, say his language was very ambiguous as compared with what he afterwards said. He said, or implied, that he would throw no obstacle in the way of reporting Progress; but no sooner did he get that Vote passed than he desired to proceed with other Votes.

MR. W. H. SMITH

I am sorry that my words should be considered ambiguous, and I must gay now in reply to hon. Members that it is the duty of the Government to take a Division against the Motion for reporting Progress, by way of making a protest against what, in my humble opinion, is a waste of the time of the House, when time is most valuable, and cannot well be spared. I am perfectly prepared to postpone any Votes against which any objection can be urged; but there are Votes against which practically there can be no reasonable objection, and, having in view the limited time at our disposal, we ought to make progress with these Votes. If the Motion is persisted in, we must take a Division against it.

MR. ILLINGWORTH (Bradford, W.)

The observations just made call for a word of notice. I do not think there has really been any time of the Committee wasted, or if there has been time wasted tonight, it has rather been by Members on that side than on this side of the House. I have been in Committee, Mr. Courtney, the whole of the evening, and have not intervened in the proceedings. If the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith) had been here continuously, he would have seen that discussion has proceeded as much from that side as from this. One explanation of the time occupied is the want of harmony in the statements of right hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Treasury Bench. I sincerely hope that, at any rate, this evening's proceedings will not be quoted in the future by the right hon. Gentleman as a deliberate attempt to delay Business.

MR. COX (Clare, E.)

In the view of the Government, as shown by their new Rule, Business should cease at half-past 12. It is now past 1; but it is a good opportunity for the Government to give us an idea of how the New Rule would work when in future—

SIR ROBERT FOWLER (London)

I rise to Order, Mr. Courtney, and ask you whether the hon. Gentleman is in Order in proceeding to discuss Rules which are the subject of a Motion before the House?

THE CHAIRMAN

called on the hon. Member for East Clare to proceed.

MR. COX

I had no intention of discussing the New Rules at all. I was only making allusion to them as an illustration of what might come to pass. It is a question how we shall like the Rules, and we might as well commence an experiment to see how they will affect us.

MR. JOHN O'CONNOR (Tipperary, S.)

Before this Division is taken, I desire to say, with every respect to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith), that his language was ambiguous; because I certainly understood him to say to the Committee that if he were allowed to get the Bankruptcy Vote it opened the prospect at which, I am sure we all rejoiced, of our going home. That Vote being allowed to pass without Division, in consequence of that statement of the right hon. Gentleman, I cannot but feel that the Committee has been, as I certainly feel I have been, trapped into a concession, into compliance with the wishes of the right hon. Gentleman, on his request, conveyed in ambiguous language, that this Vote should be allowed to pass. It was allowed to pass, and now we are called on to proceed with the discussion of other Votes which we consider of a contentious character. I protest against this method of conducting Business, and hope in the future it will not be adopted I feel it my duty to say, before this Division is taken, that I believe the right hon. Gentleman's language has been ambiguous, or studiously deceptive.

THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is not entitled to make use of such an expression.

MR. JOHN O'CONNOR

The word I intended to use, Sir, was unwittingly; but if either word is too strong, I have no desire to adhere to it. At the same time, I certainly do say that the language was unwittingly deceptive. We, at all events, were misled into acquiescing in the passing of the Vote, when the discussion was not threshed out; and, at all events, we should have taken a Division upon the Motion for a reduction of the Vote. Under all these circumstances, I do think that the right hon. Gentleman, taking into account the language he used, and the hope he held out that we should be allowed to go home to bed, would do well not to persist in his intention to take a Division now.

MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)

The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith) has made a statement that I am rather surprised did not attract the cognizance of the Chair. In my opinion, it was an incentive to Obstruction, or a suggestion to make use of it. "We will now proceed," said the right hon. Gentleman, "to take a Division as a protest," meaning, thereby, that he would use the Forms of the House against us, and that then he would concede the point. He will waste 15 minutes of the time of the Committee under the mere show of making a protest. That is not, in my opinion, language calculated to conduce to the effective conduct of Business. We know it is the ambition of the right hon. Gentleman to be considered the Gladstone of the Tory Party; but it is unfortunate that on this, the first occasion on which Committee is set down, he inveigles us, he induces us, by his suggestion to pass a Vote, and then talks about taking a Division as a protest—[Interruption.]

MR. COX

I rise to Order. Is it in Order for hon. Members below the Bar to make demonstrations?

MR. T. M. HEALY

I have no objection to hon. Gentlemen below the Bar giving evidence that they have been at the bar. What I was about to say was, that the right hon. Gentleman, in the first meeting of Committee of Supply, has used an expression and taken a course that will not conduce to the easy management of affairs. It might have been expected that on this, the first occasion, the first night of Supply, he would be very careful to avoid friction; but he has led us to withdraw our opposition to a Vote, and now he is intending, as a protest merely, for factious purposes, to take a Division, and he thinks it reasonable that we should occupy 15 minutes in trotting round the House.

MR. BIGGAR

I should like to raise my protest against the charge the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith) has levelled against us, of wasting the time of the House. I should like to know who has been wasting time for the last half-hour? It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman himself has done so wilfully and indefensibly, for the purpose of getting up an outcry in the Tory newspapers charging Irish Members with Obstruction.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 93; Noes 212: Majority 119.—(Div. List, No. 31.)

Original Question again proposed.

MR. DILLWYN (Swansea, Town)

I very much dislike always the practice of passing over one Vote to take another beyond it on the Paper. I think the principle of adhering to the order of the Votes as they are set down is much to be preferred. I would now make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. H. Smith) not to press on with Business now, but allow us to separate. I must say—though I am far from charging him with deceiving the Committee—there seems to have been great misunderstanding as to the words he used. I, with many others near me, gathered that he intended, if we passed the last Vote, to report Progress, and it is unfortunate that we should have this wrangle afterwards in connection with what he said. Without charging him with any breach of faith, his words have caused grave misunderstanding. I now beg to move, Mr. Courtney, that you do leave the Chair.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Dillwyn.)

MR. W. H. SMITH

Of course it is impossible to assent to that Motion, but I have no wish to prolong discussion on a question of words, or even of facts. I would, however, again draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that we have very little time left to complete our financial work in for the year. I invite the consideration of the Committee to the remaining Votes, and they will be passed, I hope, with all reasonable speed. I will no longer resist the Motion to report Progress, if the present Motion is withdrawn.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

Committee also report Progress; to sit again upon Wednesday.