HC Deb 15 February 1887 vol 310 cc1519-26

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—(Sir Charles Forster.)

MR. SEXTON (Belfast, W.)

Sir, I have complained on previous occasions to the House that this scheme, introduced by the Town Council of Belfast, has been promoted and pushed forward without due opportunity having been afforded for its proper consideration by the ratepayers of the town. I think that after the few words which I propose to address to the House on the present occasion, it will be admitted that the complaints which I have felt it my duty to make were only too well founded. I received only a few days ago a Report on the sewerage of Belfast, which has been issued by the Lagan Pollution Committee. They say in that Report— They approached the investigation of this scheme in the belief that if the works were completed the main object of the Bill would be effected. Further examination, however, convinced them that such would not be the case. Now, what is the conclusion at which the ratepayers have arrived. They say that— If this scheme is carried into effect the town will have expended £300,000 thereon, and it will not even then, according to the late and present borough surveyors, be healthy. Vast districts of it will remain unaffected by the scheme, vast quantities of sewage will flow into the Blackstaff and other streams, and thence into the Lagan; and, in the opinion of this Committee, the object of the Act will not have been gained, and the River Lagan will still remain polluted and unsanitary. The Lagan Pollution Committee, after long and careful consideration, and fortified by excellent legal and engineering advice, are convinced that the main drainage scheme would entail an enormous expenditure without any corresponding advantage. They are, therefore, compelled to offer the most strenuous opposition to the Bill in its present form. They arrived at this conclusion for three reasons. First— The Corporation may not discharge any sewage into the lough, except between the commencement of ebb-tide and 30 minutes after half ebb-tide; in other words, the discharge of the sewage is limited to three and a-half hours out of the 12, and the entire sewage of the town of Belfast will be locked up in a covered tank and sewer for at least eight and a-half hours daily and nightly. 'No doubt,' says the late borough surveyor, 'a system of sewer ventilation would abate the evil, but the town cannot be healthy while any deposit is suffered to accumulate in the sewers.' The Committee say— No special system of ventilation is provided for in this scheme, and the ordinary ventilation grating would be continuously giving off poisonous gases. I would ask the hon. Member for North Belfast (Mr. Ewart), whom I see in his place, how, in the face of this opinion, he gets over the fact that out of every 12 hours the sewage of Belfast will be locked up in a sewer and a covered tank for at least eight and a-half hours. The Lagan Pollution Committee say that no special system of ventilation is provided for in this scheme, and that the street ventilation gratings will be continually giving off obnoxious gases. The second reason is contained in these words— Further, the scheme makes no provision for the Falls and Shankhill Road District, the most densely populated portions of the town. Now, I happen to represent that district. I need not further identify it, because we have heard it very frequently in quite a different connection; but I may say, and I think that the hon. Member opposite will confirm me, that this division is inhabited by workpeople, that a great many manufactories are situated there; and that, so far as the public health is considered, this is the division of the town which requires the most close and constant administrative care. But if this scheme is carried into effect, the Falls and Shankhill Road District will still be drained into the Lagan. The borough surveyor, when the Bill was first promoted, gave evidence that if the scheme was carried out the River Lagan would be entirely free from the present discharges of sewage into it. The Pollution Committee say, however, that the Falls and Shankhill Road District will be still drained into the Lagan river, and, therefore, the main object of the scheme will not be effected. It appears that a further scheme is in contemplation by the Corporation of Belfast, because, although the borough surveyor last May told us that the River Lagan would be completely purified by this scheme, on the 27th of October, in a Report submitted by that gentleman to the Corporation, he— Advocates an expenditure of £108,000, in I addition to the cost of the main drainage scheme, and exclusive of the cost of taking lands and Parliamentary expenses necessary for the additional work involving this expenditure;" and for what? His Report says— The much-needed improvement of the River Lagan. Then, are we to have another Bill next year with a similar clause? If for this reason it has been found that some such scheme was necessary, why was it not included in the present Bill? The Report goes on to say— The waters of the Blackstaff and Pound Burn are utilized by many manufacturers and millowners along their courses. They have rights and powers existing and vested in them which prevent interference with the directions or levels of the streams, or interception of their waters. 'These streams' says the late borough surveyor, 'will never be in a satisfactory state so long as they contain weirs and obstructions, and the manufacturers foul them with refuse and warm and impure water. The Committee add— There is no power sought by the Main Drainage Bill, or existing in any Act of Parliament, authorizing interference with these rights to the extent of purifying these polluted waters which flow into the Lagan. Therefore, the fact appears to be this, that if the present scheme be fully carried into effect, there will be a locking up of the deposited sewage in a covered tank and sewer for eight and a-half hours out of every 12, and that the River Lagan will not be entirely free from all discharge of sewage. Further— That the waters of the Blackstaff and the Pound Burn, which are utilized by many manufacturers and millowners, will not be in a very satisfactory state so long as they contain weirs and obstructions; and the manufacturers foul them with refuse or warm and impure water. These are three of the reasons which induced the Lagan Pollution Committee to arrive at the conclusion that the measure promoted by the Corporation of Belfast, and which comes before the House to-day, violates every one of the conditions which the borough surveyor has declared to be necessary. That is a brief statement of the case. I do not propose to divide the House on the present occasion; but I will conclude with this observation, that when I asked the House, and the House agreed, last Session to extend the municipal franchise in Belfast, from the very limited body who now possess it to the general body of the ratepayers of the town, I stated that I was convinced of the obvious justice of the case, but that I was not convinced of its necessity. If, hereafter, it should be necessary to take extreme action in order to secure an extended municipal franchise for the body of the ratepayers of Belfast, I shall not hesitate to do so; but, at the present time I will only say, and I think that men of all Parties will agree with me, after what I have said of the present scheme, that it will be absurd and unjust to entrust the Corporation of Belfast with the carrying out of important sanitary reforms involving the expenditure of large sums of money, and, at the same time, to forbid the townspeople, who are obliged by law to raise the money for executing them, from having any control over the expenditure.

SIR JAMES CORRY (Armagh, Mid)

I cannot support the views which the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton) has just expressed; nor do I think he is better informed as to the wants and necessities of the town of Belfast than I am, or of the circumstances which led to the introduction of the Bill now before the House. The fact is that this scheme has not only been approved of by the borough surveyor, but by one of the most eminent engineers of the day—Mr. Joseph Bazalgette. The whole matter was submitted to that gentleman and thoroughly inquired into, and he satisfied himself, from the investigation he gave to the subject, that the scheme now proposed is the very best which could be brought forward for the town of Belfast. The hon. Member has referred to the Report of a Committee called the Lagan Pollution Committee. Now, a number of the gentlemen who composed that Committee are personal friends of my own, and I have had an opportunity of hearing their reasons for putting forward a scheme of their own. They have stated, most distinctly, that they are not opponents of the main drainage scheme, but that all they want is some additional scheme, such as the hon. Member has referred to, for keeping the waters of the River Lagan banked up and made into a lake. Speaking personally, I should be glad to see something of that kind done, because I believe that it would be of great advantage to the town. At the same time I could not give any sanction to the scheme which has been proposed. If carried out it would seriously interfere with the navigation of the river, and the Harbour Commissioners, who are themselves the conservators of the river, would certainly oppose any such scheme. It is quite unnecessary after what the hon. Member has stated that I should say anymore on this subject. I am satisfied that the House will accept the opinion of the borough surveyor rather than that of any amateur engineers who have not had the same means of arriving at a conclusion, and that they will allow this Bill to be read a third time. There will be a further opportunity of dealing with the provisions of the Bill when the measure goes before a Committee of the House of Lords, and that I think would be the proper opportunity for entering into the details which have been referred to by the hon. Member.

MR. DE COBAIN (Belfast, E.)

I hope I may be permitted to say a word in reference to the question raised by the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton) towards the close of his speech—namely, the question of the extension of the municipal franchise in Belfast. The Corporation of Belfast are asking by this Bill for large Parliamentary powers, and the hon. Member states that the whole of the people have not had an opportunity of expressing an opinion as to the propriety of conferring these powers upon the Corporation. I am not sufficiently familiar with legislation upon the subject to express concurrence with the hon. Member as to the effect of assimilating the municipal franchise to the Parliamentary franchise by incorporating an additional clause for that purpose in the Main Drainage Bill. Whether that would be the best way of carrying out that object or not I am unable to say, but if a distinct Bill is introduced to confer municipal privileges on those who are at present excluded from them in Belfast, I think that would be a better course than to deal with the question by a clause in a Main Drainage Bill, which might imperfectly define the conditions under which such privilege should be exercised. The main question raised by the Bill is one of engineering, and being an engineering question it is difficult for a layman to give any opinion upon it. The subject was investigated by an influential Committee designated the Lagan Pollution Commissioners, and I know that they put forward intelligent and strong grounds why the scheme they advocated should be adopted in preference to that which is provided in this Bill. As to the extension of the municipal franchise, I shall be quite prepared to act in concurrence with the hon. Member opposite, or with any other hon. Member or Party in this House who will seek to accomplish that just and necessary object by a general measure.

MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.)

I am able to corroborate from my own personal knowledge the statement of my hon. Friend the Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton), that the present scheme is not at all sufficient for the purpose it is intended to effect. It is perfectly notorious that by far the greatest nuisance in connection with the sewerage of Belfast is to be found in that part of the district which is proposed to be dealt with by the Lagan Pollution Committee. That Committee proposes to purify the water in that part of the Lagan which lies above Belfast. Anyone who has the misfortune to pass over the River Lagan in that part of it which lies near the residence of the hon. Member for East Belfast (Mr. De Cobain), must know that it is a most painful nuisance. What occurs is this—every time the tide recedes the mud banks are left perfectly bare, and a considerable amount of noxious gases emanates from them. In point of fact, these banks are very much in the same position as the Thames used to be opposite the Houses of Parliament before the present Embankment was made. After the tide has receded the banks are left bare, and gases are emitted from them which are not only foul, but highly dangerous to the health of the inhabitants. I think the hon. Member for North Belfast (Mr. Ewart) is bound to declare that he will give every assistance in his power to the additional scheme proposed by the Lagan Committee, which I believe would only cost some £18,000, in addition to the £108,000 proposed to be expended under the present scheme. By that means the drainage of Belfast would be rendered far more complete, and the town would be placed in a proper sanitary condition. It certainly seems to me highly improper that we should assent to a large and expensive scheme which will only partially remedy the grievance complained of. When a scheme of main drainage is being pro- posed, I think it ought to be rendered fully adequate to the necessities of the ease. The hon. Baronet (Sir James Corry) has referred to obstacles which may be thrown in the way of any thorough drainage for sanitary purposes in the town of Belfast, by the action of the Harbour Commissioners. Now, the Harbour Commissioners for Belfast are elected by means of an exceedingly narrow franchise—so scandalously and ridiculously narrow that it does not represent in the slightest degree the inhabitants of that town. In addition to that, it is notorious that there is more jobbery committed by them than by any other Corporation, except, perhaps, the City of London. It is supposed that the City of London may be found more than equal to the Corporation of Belfast in the way of jobbery, and in conferring special favours upon themselves. I do not charge the hon. Baronet opposite with having accepted personal favours; but I think he is called upon to promise, in the interests of the inhabitants of the town of which he is a native, and which he formerly represented, to do all in his power to insist upon the town being placed in a proper sanitary condition, and not being tied down by small and unimportant matters connected with the navigation of the River Lagan. My own opinion is, that it would be perfectly proper to make the River Lagan navigable, and at the same time to take satisfactory measures for rendering the sanitary state of that river much better than it is at present.

MR. EWART (Belfast, N.)

I am glad to find that there is no difference of opinion either as to the necessity of passing this Main Drainage Bill, or as to the merits of the scheme before the House. After what has been stated by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Armagh (Sir James Corry), I think I need not refer to the remarks which have been made by the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton), who has favoured the House with the opinions of a Committee, called the Lagan Committee, who have some other objects in view. In answer to the hon. Member who has just sat down, I have certainly no difficulty in saying that I shall be glad to support any Bill, no matter by whom it may be introduced, for the further improvement of the drainage of Belfast. Perhaps I ought to say a word in reference to the observations of the hon. Member for West Belfast with regard to the municipal franchise. I will remind the hon. Gentleman that in the last Parliament, when this Bill was before the House, I undertook, on behalf of myself and the other Members for the town of Belfast, that if the Bill were allowed to go through we would do our best to secure the passing of a Bill to assimilate the Irish franchise to that in England. That proposal of mine was rejected by the hon. Member for West Belfast, otherwise this Bill would have been passed early in the month of July last year, and these very necessary works would have been in effective operation some months ago.

MR. MAURICE HEALY (Cork)

I think a very strong case has been made out by my hon. friend the Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton). It is, however, satisfactory to find the hon. Member who has just sat down pledging himself, and the promoters of the Bill, to support any further scheme for rendering the drainage effective for the objects for which it is intended. I would appeal to the hon. Member to say whether or not he and the other promoters of the Bill will undertake, when this Bill goes to "another place," to give their support to any project which may be submitted to the House of Lords for extending the scope of the Bill and remedying the defects which have been pointed out by the hon. Member for West Belfast and the hon. Member for West Cavan (Mr. Biggar).

Question put, and agreed to.

Queen's Consent signified.

Bill read the third time, and passed.