[BILL 41.] COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 3 September 1886)

§ MR. M. J. KENNY (Tyrone, Mid)
Mr. Raikes, we have had no explanation from the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) as to the exact nature of this Bill. The Bill has been brought in in pursuance of some arrangement; but it has some features in regard with which we ought to receive an explanation from the hon. Gentleman. In the first place, it is proposed by this measure to repeal a section and a portion of a section of two separate Acts of Parliament. The Auditor General, who has made a Report to this House, and in accordance with which Report the Bill is brought in, says that he has come to the conclusion that he is unable, in reference to the Secret Service Vote, to fulfil the 1304 statutory obligation imposed upon him. Now, Sir, I should like to know—

THE CHAIRMAN
I think the hon. Member will be more in Order if he makes his observations on the 2nd clause of the Bill, which has reference to the sections to be repealed. The 1st clause merely relates to the title.

§ MR. M. J. KENNY
I merely desire to have some statement from the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) in regard to the reasons for the sudden discovery of the Auditor General that he is unable any longer to fulfil the duty imposed upon him by the 26 & 27 Vict. The declaration which the Auditor General was required to make was of an extremely explicit nature. Amongst other things, he was to declare that none of the Secret Service money was spent in Election matters. We are perfectly aware, from recent disclosures, that a portion of the Secret Service Fund, payable out of the Civil List, has for many years past, been devoted to the purpose of securing the election of Gentlemen to this House, and therefore I think we are entitled to an explanation from the Secretary to the Treasury as to how it is that the conscience of the Auditor General has been so suddenly pricked that he can no longer make the declaration required of him. For years past he must have suspected that the declaration he made was not in accordance with the facts, and it appears to me that, if he had reason to doubt the truth of what he said, the making of the declaration was very like the committal of perjury. I await explanation from the Secretary to the Treasury, or from the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Akers-Douglas), both of whom are present, and either of whom will, I suppose, be able to afford me the information I ask.

§ THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)
I do not think it is necessary to occupy the time of the House in making any explanation with regard to this Bill, though, of course, we are perfectly willing to explain anything that may require explanation in connection with it. I may say that the hon. Member (Mr. Kenny) is entirely wrong in sup- 1305 posing that the Bill was brought in in consequence of any difficulty the Auditor General had, because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the Auditor General really had no power over the money dealt with by this Bill. The £10,000 which has been the subject of a great deal of controversy from time to time was a charge upon the Consolidated Fund, and for a long series of years was used for various purposes by successive Patronage Secretaries to the Treasury. It is only fair to my hon. Friend and Colleague (Mr. Akers-Douglas) to say that it was in consequence of his action and of his very strong feeling that this money ought to be made the subject of Parliamentary control that this Bill was introduced. My hon. Friend was the first man who surrendered the unexpended balances, and I think he is entitled to the credit of this Bill. As I have already said, I am not aware it is necessary to make any explanation. I should have thought the House would have been very glad to get rid of the difficulty. I have no doubt the Bill will meet with the hearty approval of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands), who I am sorry not to see in his place, but who has always taken a great interest in the Secret Service Fund. It is because the Government have recognized the fact that there is a growing wish that the control of Parliament over the Expenditure of the country should be more complete that they have brought in this Bill. The House will understand, of course, that there are some messengers whose salaries will have to be paid. To meet such salaries a Supplementary Vote, amounting, I think, to about £1,100, will be brought in.

§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)
I must confess that, as far as I am personally concerned, I regard the introduction of this Bill with very great satisfaction; and I think credit is due to the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Akers-Douglas) for initiating the improvement. I cannot, however, altogether agree with the statement which has fallen from the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson), to the effect that the Comptroller and Auditor General had nothing to do with causing some such measure to be introduced, because the hon. Member will know very well that, besides the 1306 £10,000 which has year after year been drawn from the Consolidated Fund, and which, being drawn, was beyond the ken and reach of the Comptroller and Auditor General, there was another sum, amounting sometimes to £33,000 in a single year, drawn from the Votes of Supply for the same service. In regard to that larger grant, it appears there is somewhere about £100,000 unaccounted for. The Comptroller and Auditor General had no authority to demand certificates such as he was entitled to receive from voted Services; and it was by reason of the fact that he complained of the inability to check matters in this respect that attention was drawn to the subject, and that year after year the Public Accounts Committee made Reports which were of such cogency and strength that the Treasury were obliged to take the matter in hand. With regard to the matter of unexpended balances, it appears to me that the present Bill is insufficient. I do not find in the Bill, certainly not in the clause now under discussion, which is the operative portion of the Bill, any direction for the surrender of any unexpended balances which may be at present in the hands of the Secretary to the Treasury. I do not understand how, having regard to the wording of the Act of Parliament under which the Comptroller and Auditor General is to act, he would be able to insist upon a statement or certificate in regard to the money which is now in the hands of the Secretary to the Treasury. I merely throw this out as a suggestion, and possibly the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Jackson) may see his way to amend the Bill so as to remove the difficulty. If the difficulty is not removed, I imagine the Comptroller and Auditor General will be in precisely the same difficulty he has been in in past years. I imagine it will be necessery to introduce some Amendments. I am not prepared to suggest the Amendments; but the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Jackson) may possibly be in a position to do so.

§ MR. JACKSON
I may be allowed to answer that Question; perhaps I ought to have done so before. It was not thought necessary to insert any clause in the Bill bearing upon the subject; but the Bill, as the hon. Member is aware, is made to come into operation immediately on its being passed into law. He may, and I have no doubt 1307 the House will, accept the assurance of the Government that any unexpended balances will be properly accounted for.

§ MR. JACKSON
As I do not anticipate there will be any objection on the part of hon. Members to take the third reading of the Bill now, I beg to move that the Bill be now read the third time.