HC Deb 13 May 1886 vol 305 cc1023-30

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

MR. GREGORY (Sussex, East Grinstead)

I have a series of clauses upon the Paper, which may possibly be not altogether regarded as germane to this Bill. Nevertheless, I believe that my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury will be willing to give effect to them, if not in their present shape, and in the Bill now before the Committee, perhaps in another form which carries out the intention of my Amendment, and in another Bill. I hope, if that Bill is brought in, that I shall have an opportunity of moving the Amendment to carry out the object I have in view; and I am, for the present, willing to withdraw the clauses standing in my name upon that understanding. Of course, in withdrawing this Amendment I run some risk, because it may be contingent to the present situation that the Government may not continue in Office, or that Parliament may undergo a process of Dissolution, in which case, having arrived at an age which will probably determine my Parliamentary career, I may be deprived of the power of moving these clauses myself. I trust, however, that my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury would, under those circumstances, supply my place, and undertake to give effect to them, as far as he is able. At all events, I am willing to leave the matter in his hands to carry out my object, if possible, during the present Session, but relying on his assistance, as I have said, to give effect to them in the event of a Dissolution.

New Clauses:—

(Purchasers and mortgagees exempted from liability to succession duty after a specified period.)

  1. "(i.) Notwithstanding the forty-second section of 'The Succession Duty Act, 1853,' or any other provision contained in that Act, real property, or any estate or interest therein, shall not, as against a purchaser for valuable consideration, or a mortgagee, remain charged with or liable to payment of any sum for succession duty after the expiration of six years from the date of the death, upon the happening of which the duty may (whether before or after the passing of this Act) have become payable; or if such period of six years expires within two years from the date of the passing of this Act, then after the expiration of two years from the last-mentioned date.
  2. "(ii.) The duty (if any) unpaid at the expiration of such period of six years or two years, as the case may be, shall be payable and paid by the successor personally, and shall become charged substitutively upon any other estate or interest liable to the same duty and remaining vested in the successor, and in case of a mortgage upon the equity of redemption.
  3. "(iii.) This section is not to lessen or affect any liability of any successor to payment of duty, whether out of money received on any sale or mortgage, or otherwise, but a purchaser or mortgagee shall not, for the purpose of obtaining the exemption conferred by this section, be bound to see that the duty is discharged out of the money or other consideration paid or given as the consideration for the sale or mortgage.

(Power to deposit with Inland Revenue copies of documents not admitted to probate, and thereupon liability for duty after specified period to cease.)

  1. "(i.) Any person may cause a copy of any document which creates a liability for payment of any duty other than a testamentary document admitted to probate to be deposited at the office of Inland Revenue, and such copy shall be received at that office.
  2. "(ii.) The officer receiving under this section a copy of a document shall, on request of the person making the deposit, and either by indorsement on the original document or otherwise, give a receipt in writing under his hand for the document deposited.
  3. "(iii.) After a receipt has been given by an officer of Inland Revenue for a copy deposited as authorised by this section, of a document, no person shall, in the character of trustee, executor, or administrator, be liable for payment of any duty under such document after the expiration of six years next following the date of the deposit, or the date of the death by which the duty becomes payable, whichever date last happens.
  4. "(iv.) After a receipt has been given by an officer of Inland Revenue for a copy, deposited as authorised by this section, of any document, no person shall be liable for payment of any duty thereunder after the expiration of twelve 1025 years next following the date of the deposit, or the date of the death by which the duty becomes payable, whichever date last happens.
  5. "(v.) The costs of depositing a copy of a document and obtaining a receipt under this section shall be deemed costs duly incurred by a trustee, executor, or administrator, or any other person in the execution of his duties as trustee, executor, or administrator, or otherwise under the document.

(Liability to duty under documents admitted to probate to cease after a specified period.)

  1. "(i.) No person shall, under a testamentary document admitted to probate, or under letters of administration, be liable in the character of trustee, executor, or administrator, for payment of any duty after the expiration of six years from the date of the duty first becoming payable.
  2. "(ii.) No person shall, under a testamentary document admitted to probate, or under letters of administration, be liable for payment of any duty after the expiration of twelve years from the date of the duty first becoming payable.
  3. "(iii.) Provided, That, where, in the case of a testamentary document or letters of administration coming into operation before the passing of this Act, the period of six years or twelve years mentioned in this section expires within three years next after the date of the passing of this Act, then the exemption from liability conferred by this section shall not take effect till after the expiration of such three years.

(Officer of Inland Revenue may apply for information as to duty.)

  1. "(i.) Any officer of Inland Revenue may apply to any trustee under a document deposited pursuant to this Act, or to any trustee or executor, under a testamentary document which has admitted to probate, or to any administrator, or to any other person actually or presumably liable for payment of duty under such document or under an intestacy, for such information as may be necessary to show whether any duty is payable thereunder.
  2. "(ii.) The person so applied to shall, to the best of his information and belief, give to the officer making application all information reasonably necessary to show whether any duty is payable.
  3. "(iii.) In case any person so applied to for information makes default in giving the same for two calendar months, notice may be given to him requiring payment of duty as on the happening of any event which would create a liability to duty; and in case the person so applied to should not give satisfactory proof that the event has not happened, such event shall be deemed to have happened, and the duty may be recovered accordingly, and as if it had happened; and, in case satisfactory proof is given that the event has not happened, further proceedings for recovery of duty shall be stayed, but all costs and expenses previously incurred of any proceedings taken for recovery of the duty shall be paid to the Receiver of Inland Revenue by the person making default.
  4. "(iv.) Provided, That, any trustee who has retired or been duly discharged from a trust, shall not, under this section, become subjected to any further or other liability as to payment 1026 of duty, giving information, or otherwise, than he would have been subject to if this Act had not been passed.
  5. "(v.) All costs, charges, and expenses incurred by any trustee or executor in complying with any application made under this section shall be deemed costs, charges, and expenses duly incurred in reference to the property to which the application relates.

(Statutory advertisements for creditors made applicable to claims for duty in like manner as to other debts of a deceased person.) A claim against the estate of a testator or intestate for payment of any duty accrued due from such testator or intestate in his lifetime, or otherwise than under a testamentary disposition made by him, or otherwise than under his intestacy, as the case may be, shall be deemed a claim within the meaning of the twenty-ninth section of the Act twenty-second and twenty-third years of Her Majesty, chapter twenty-eight, and accordingly an executor or administrator shall not be liable to the Crown for payment of any such duty further or otherwise than he would be liable in case the same were a debt due to any other creditor.

(Advertisements for information may be issued by Inland Revenue.) In case information when demanded cannot be obtained sufficient to show whether duty is or is not payable uuder any document (including a will or other testamentary disposition), the Receiver of Inland Revenue may cause such advertisements to be inserted as he may think proper in any newspaper, asking and offering a reward for the necessary information, and the amount of all costs incurred in so advertising shall be recoverable in like manner as if it were duty payable under the document with reference to which information is asked, and any trustee, executor, or administrator may pay such costs in like manner, and out of the same fund, as if it were duty so payable,"—(Mr. Gregory,)—

brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clauses be read a second time."

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER) (Wolverhampton, E.)

Sir, the Committee is aware that the substance of this Amendment was laid before us with very great force and fairness by the hon. Member who has just sat down, and that the Prime Minister requested him to put the matter into shape. The hon. Member has done that, and Her Majesty's Government have given the subject their careful consideration. We are not prepared to accept the Amendment on the present occasion, inasmuch as it is not relevant to the clauses of the Bill now before the Committee, which does not deal with Succession Duties. But it is the intention of the Treasury to introduce an Omnibus Bill dealing with those Duties, and also for the purpose of carrying out the Treaty with Spain with reference to the Wine Duties; and we propose that the clauses which my hon. Friend has moved as an Amendment should be put into that Bill, which will give the House an opportunity of forming a judgment with regard to it. I heartily trust that nothing will occur which will remove the personal attention of my hon. Friend from this matter. Yet, if it should pass into other hands, I hope the object he has in view will be carried out, and I shall do all in my power to bring about that result.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

CAPTAIN COTTON (Cheshire, Wirral)

Sir, I do not know if I shall be in Order in moving this next clause, standing in the name of the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton); but I desire to do so, because I think it will confer a boon upon the class of people who will very much appreciate it. It is well known, both to dwellers in town and country, that there are many persons who would be very considerably benefited by the advantage contemplated in the new clause. It is unnecessary for me to occupy the time of the Committee at any length with the object and merits of the clause, which I think are tolerably self-evident. I believe that the whole amount of the Carriage Duty, in the course of the year, is not more than £600,000; and it seems to me that the amount by which this sum would be reduced, if the Amendment were accepted, is a matter for very slight consideration.

New Clause:—

(Carriage Duties.)

"Any waggon, cart, or other vehicle used solely for the conveyance of any goods or burden in the course of trade and husbandry, and which, under the thirty-second and thirty-third Victoria, chapter twenty-four, section nineteen, sub-section six, is exempted from Carriage Duties, shall not become subject to the said Duties by reason of any member of owner's family occasionally using the same as a conveyance on Sunday,"—(Captain Cotton,)—

brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT) (Derby)

Sir, I cannot sympathize with the hon. and gallant Member who has moved the second reading of this clause. The hon. and gallant Member has referred to the amount of the Carriage Duty as amounting to the trifling sum of £600,000. Well, Sir, that seems to me a very large sum of money. The exemption which already exists was made with regard to vehicles used for the purpose of conveying persons to church; but the Amendment which the hon. and gallant Member has moved, as I understand it, is not proposed with the intention of assisting the conveyance of people to Divine worship, but for the purpose of promoting their enjoyment on Sunday, and in that sense is equally applicable to Bank Holidays, or any other days. I think the Committee will see that to pass beyond the exemption which already exists would be a change of a serious character, and I trust the Government will be supported in resisting this proposal.

MR. BEADEL (Essex, Chelmsford)

I think the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has treated this matter a little more lightly than it deserves; and I do not think that he at all meets the case when he speaks of vehicles being used on Sunday as on other days. It seems to be a very hard case that vehicles used on week-days for various purposes should not be allowed to be used on Sunday in the sense contemplated by the noble Lord.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to explain. The present exemption allows vehicles to be used on Sundays for the purpose of conveyance to Divine worship; but this Amendment would allow them to be used for other purposes.

MR. BEADEL

As I understand the matter, they cannot be used in the afternoon, or rather that they are subject to the tax if they are so used. Well, Sir, at the present time taxation presses hardly enough on persons in every station in life; and I urge in support of the Amendment before the Committee that if any relief can be afforded in this matter, it will be regarded as a great benefit to those concerned.

MR. BRUNNER (Cheshire, Northwich)

I am interested to know how the permission to use these vehicles, as set forth in the Amendment, will cost the nation anything. It may be a question whether it be right or wrong that they be so used; but certainly it seems to me the Revenue cannot be affected in the smallest degree. For my part, I should like the Committee to decide that the Carriage Tax is a very had one.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER) (Wolverhampton, E.)

I think the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken does not quite appreciate the existing state of the law. The law is that whereas all vehicles were subject, in the first instance, to Carriage Duty, exemptions were allowed in the case of certain vehicles on which the names of the owners were painted and exclusively used by the persons by whom they were owned for the conveyance of any goods or burden in the course of trade or husbandry. An appeal was made to this House on the ground that it was a great hardship to a farmer and his family, that if any cart or conveyance used on a week-day for the purpose of trade should be used on Sunday for the purpose of conveying them to church or chapel, the exemption should thereupon cease. Parliament listened to that appeal, as I think, very reasonably, and said to the farmer—" If you do use your vehicle on Sunday for the purpose of conveyance to Divine worship you shall still be exempt; you shall be allowed on Sunday to use this carriage, cart, or waggon for the purpose of taking you to Divine service." Now the suggestion is that the principle of exemption should be made to apply to the using of vehicles on Sunday for the purpose of pleasure. The words of the existing law are— In respect of any waggon or cart used for carrying the owner or his family to or from any place of Divine worship on Sunday, Christmas Bay, or Good Friday, and so on. It was the intention of Parliament that the privilege of exemption should otherwise cease, and that persons should not be entitled to use their carts and waggons for pleasure excursions. If you extend the exemption to these cases, how, I ask, can you justify the tax on carriages of people who use them for such purposes on every day of the week?

MR. BRUNNER

The object of the Amendment not being an unreasonable one, and seeing it will cost the nation nothing, I shall gladly support the Motion of my hon. and gallant Colleague (Captain Cotton).

Amendment negatived.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow.