HC Deb 19 March 1886 vol 303 cc1423-8
MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK (Whitehaven)

On Friday night, Sir, when a Motion like that which has just been negatived was taken, the custom was that Her Majesty's Government should move, "That this House immediately resolve itself into Committee of Supply." [Mr. GLADSTONE dissented.] The right hon. Gentleman opposite shakes his head; but that was the invariable rule in former years, and it was adopted out of regard for the surrender of their privileges which private Members made when the Motion for the Adjournment of the House on Friday night was got rid of. Unless some special circumstances intervened, some Member of the Government has always moved that the House should resolve itself into Committee of Supply. Now, on this occasion, land other hon. Members have Motions on the Paper of considerable importance, which, in all probability, there will be no opportunity of discuss- ing again during the present Session. I would, therefore, appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister to follow the long-established rule which he himself, on more than one occasion, has said ought to be observed, except in special circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman, and those who represent the Treasury Bench, have always said that the Motion for Supply should be renewed, unless a late hour of the evening had been reached. It is now very little more than half-past 10, and yet the Government decline to set up Supply again. We are all aware how seriously the privileges of private Members have been curtailed in this House; and unless some opportunity is given to independent Members for having the questions in which they are interested discussed, their rights will be almost done away with altogether. We have in the House at the present moment a considerable number of new Members who are not acquainted with the rights and privileges of the House; and I appeal to them to support me on this occasion, or those rights and privileges will be seriously affected. I would also appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister to say what the rule and understanding have been in reference to the Committee of Supply on Friday nights—whether it has not always been the practice of Her Majesty's Government, when a Motion has been negatived, to set up Supply again?

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE) (Edinburgh, Mid Lothian)

I rise at once to answer the appeal of the right hon. and learned Gentleman; and although I quite agree with some of his observations, I am certainly not able to agree with the conclusion he has arrived at. I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has somewhat overstated the case, although not seriously; because, in the circumstances under which the proceedings of the House on Friday nights were altered some years ago, and which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has recounted, I admit that there was practically an understanding that the Government should not escape from its obligation to allow free scope for discussion to private Members. He has fairly stated that that was the case whenever a division on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply oc- curred early in the evening. But we have now arrived at an hour which implies that a considerable portion of the evening has passed away; and the Government are bound to have more scruples as to the exercise of their discretion in again setting up Supply. We have considered that it would be better to proceed with the other Orders of the Day. It is a question, however, for private Members, and private Members only. The Government were taken to task early in the evening for having put a private Member's Bill next to the Order for Supply; but I believe there is a general concurrence of opinion that the Bill in question should go forward as rapidly as possible. Therefore, I thought that we ought to set up Supply for Monday, and go forward with the Order of the Day which stands next on the Paper.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH (Bristol, W.)

I confess that we have some reason to be dissatisfied with the decision arrived at by the right hon. Gentleman. I certainly had understood that it had been almost the invariable practice that the Motion for Supply should be renewed under circumstances such as have happened this evening, and the more so as it is a comparatively early hour in the evening—only 20 minutes to 11. I do not know that the Motion of my right hon. and learned Friend stands on the Paper in such a position as would enable the important subject he desires to bring forward to be fully discussed; but there is a Motion in the name of the hon. Baronet opposite the Member for Durham (Sir Joseph Pease), whom I see in his place, which is of great interest and importance, and might very properly occupy the attention of the House this evening. What does the right hon. Gentleman compare that subject with? He compares it with a Bill which has no right to occupy its present prominent place on the Paper, and which would not have occupied that place but for the action of Her Majesty's Government, which, although it may, perhaps, be in accordance with precedents at the end of the Session, is, I will venture to say, hardly in accordance with precedents in the month of March. Her Majesty's Government, for their own reasons, have chosen on this occasion to place the Labourers (Ireland) Bill second to Supply—a Bill which they have not thought it necessary to introduce themselves, but which, I suppose, under certain pressure from below the Gangway, they have been induced to place in its present prominent position. But, Sir, it is not merely a question between the Motion of the hon. Baronet opposite and the promoters of the Labourers (Ireland) Bill, but it is a question between the Orders of the Day and the most pressing Business; and I certainly understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the most pressing Business before the House at the present moment is the Business of Supply. Effective Supply has been put down by the Secretary to the Treasury for tonight; and therefore if, for any reason, the hon. Baronet opposite does not choose to avail himself of his precedence on this occasion in order to bring on his Motion to-night, the House ought to proceed with Supply and make progress with the Estimates. That the House should be called upon to postpone Supply until Monday in order that the Labourers (Ireland) Bill may be proceeded with can only be accounted for on one supposition, and that is the very precarious position in which Her Majesty's Government find themselves placed. We have done our best already to save them from defeat by their own followers tonight. We shall be happy to do it again, if we agree with them and if it be necessary; and after that assurance I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider his position.

SIR JOHN COMMERELL (Southampton)

I believe that the Motion which stands on the Paper in my name, in reference to the funds of Greenwich Hospital, comes before that of the hon. Baronet opposite.

MR. SPEAKER

The Order for Supply has already been passed over. The Order itself was defeated; and, the Amendment of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Richard) having been negatived, unless the Government chose to set up Supply again there is no power on the part of the House to revive it.

SIR JOHN GORST (Chatham)

I understand that the Question before the House is whether Supply shall be postponed until Monday.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (, &c.) Kirkcaldy

I rise to Order. I wish to ask you, Sir, if there is any Question before the House?

MR. SPEAKER

There is no Question before the House. The right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck) who addressed the House addressed it on a point of Order. That is the only Question before it.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL (Paddington, S.)

Surely, Sir, was it not the case that just now the Question was put that the Committee of Supply be postponed until Monday?

MR. SPEAKER

The Committee of Supply has already been deferred by the action of the House, and there is no Motion before the House that Supply be postponed until Monday. The question which has arisen now has reference to the custom of setting up Supply after an Amendment has been negatived, and the Order of the Day has been suspended by the action of the House.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

I wish to submit, with very great respect, that the Question before the House is whether Supply shall be taken on Monday.

MR. SPEAKER

There is no Question before the House at all.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

Can Supply be set down for Monday without the Order of the House?

MR. SPEAKER

I have already said that it has been set up for Monday. That was put from the Chair, and the House decided to defer the Order for Supply until Monday.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

But we object to that. We raised opposition to it. [Cries of "Order!" and "Name!"]

MR. SPEAKER

I must remind the noble Lord that Supply is fixed for Monday. The Clerk at the Table had already proceeded to read the next Order. No objection was taken to that, and the House proceeded to the next Business after Supply. At this moment there is really no Question before the House.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

again rose, amid cries of "Order!" and "Name!"

MR. SPEAKER

If the noble Lord desires to put a question upon a point of Order he is entitled to do so. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck) did put a question of Order, and he was therefore allowed to speak. But there is no Question before the House, and I must remind the noble Lord that he is not entitled to speak except upon a question of Order.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

Then I will ask you, Sir, whether the House has agreed to the Motion of the Government that Supply should be set down for Monday? because I understood my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck) to make an appeal to you in order to dispute that Motion. That is the point which I wish to place before you clearly—namely, whether the time had gone by, when my right hon. and learned Friend rose, for disagreeing with the proposition of the Government that Supply should be put down for Monday? I want to know, Sir, whether my right hon. and learned Friend was not in sufficient time to object to the Motion of the Government?

MR. SPEAKER

I put the Question in the ordinary way, that Supply should be postponed until Monday, and the Clerk then proceeded to read the next Order of the Day. The Order of the Day was read from the Table, and there is now no Question before the House except the Orders of the Day.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH (Bristol, W.)

May I ask a Question for information? I thought that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck), the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, and myself, all spoke on the Question that Supply be postponed until Monday.

MR. SPEAKER

I have expressly stated that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Whitehaven spoke upon a point of Order, and a point of Order takes precedence of any other Question. No Question can be raised now as to the setting up of Supply. The Question of Supply has been passed, and the Clerk proceeded to read the Orders of the Day.

SIR JOHN GORST

I rise, Sir, for the purpose of putting a question to you; and it is whether, supposing that Her Majesty's Government should change their minds and allow Supply again to be set up, it is not competent for them to do so?

MR. SPEAKER

We have passed the stage in which that could be done.