§ Bill, as amended, considered.
§ MR. BRYCE,in moving to insert the following new clause after Clause 12:—
The Board shall, under the powers conferred upon them by this Act, acquire the whole of the piece of land in, the parish of All Saints, Poplar, numbered 2 on the deposited plans (Greenwich Ferry, Plan No. 4), and in the book of reference, page 68, and shall lay out or cause to be laid out as a public garden or recreation ground so much of the said piece of land as shall not be required for the purposes of 917 the Ferry between Greenwich Pier and Bayne Street, Poplar, and the purposes mentioned in Clause 12 of this Act,said, this was the first of two new clauses which he proposed to insert in the Bill. It would, however, require two small verbal corrections. "Clause 12" ought to be "Clause 14," and "Bayne Street" was a misprint for "Barque Street." The Bill proposed to confer various powers upon the Metropolitan Board of Works, and, among other things, to establish and regulate a ferry across the River Thames from Greenwich to Millwall in the parish of Poplar. This was a public work which would, no doubt, be of much utility; and for the purpose of establishing the ferry the Metropolitan Board proposed to acquire a piece of land one and a-half acres in extent on the Poplar side of the river, in what was called the Isle of Dogs, immediately opposite Greenwich Hospital. This piece of land was at present laid out as a garden—in fact, it was an old garden with some trees and a grass plot. It would be a particularly good place to use as a recreation ground, because it was very well situated on the bank of the river, commanding a view of all the ships which passed up and down, and it was immediately opposite Greenwich and to various interesting objects in the locality, such as the Hospital, the Park, and the Observatory. It might, therefore, be converted into a very pleasant spot for the people of this populous and poor district to resort to for the purpose of recreation, and for a playground for the children. As many persons would have to be constantly waiting for the arrival of the ferry boats, it would be an additional advantage to have some place where they could sit beneath the trees while waiting, rather than be tempted to while away the time in the neighbouring public-houses. He might add that there was no recreation ground in the whole of this district, crowded as it was and poor as the population was. Indeed, he did not believe that there was within two miles any piece of ground that was available for the enjoyment and recreation of the people or for the games of children. He had already presented to the House a Petition, signed by 556 residents in the neighbourhood of the ferry, urgently requesting the House to accept this proposition; and those who had first asked 918 him to call attention to the subject (the Metropolitan Public Garden Association) had intimated their willingness to undertake the expense of laying out the ground for the benefit of the public. Some 10 or 11 days ago, a communication had been addressed from the Association in question to the Metropolitan Board of Works, laying before the Board the desirability of devoting the land to public purposes, and requesting them to express their views upon the subject, and also upon the clauses which he now proposed to insert in the Bill. The Board were invited to say whether there was anything wrong in these clauses, in point of form; and as no answer had been returned he was emboldened to believe that, so far as the form of the clauses was concerned, they were perfectly regular. He did not know whether his hon. Friend the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works (Sir James M'Garel-Hogg) was disposed to accept these clauses on behalf of the promoters of the Bill. He trusted that he was, because the burden which their adoption would entail upon the ratepayers of London generally was extremely slight. The land was of very small pecuniary value, and, as it had already been scheduled by the Metropolitan Board, it would not be necessary to give any additional notice, and the House would have nothing more to do than to express its wish that the surplus land not required for the purpose of the ferry and its approaches should be utilized for the enjoyment of the public. He thought it was in the power of the Board of Works, and it would certainly be an act of grace which would be fully appreciated by the people if they would assent to this proposition, and not put the House to the necessity of dividing upon it. He would remind the House and his hon. Friend, whose feelings in these matters he knew to be liberal, that it would not only be an act of grace, but also in reality an act of justice, because while the West End of London was plentifully provided with recreation grounds, and the banks of the river between Westminster Bridge and the Temple were adorned with garden grounds thrown open to the public, in the East End of London nothing of the kind could be found. Hon. Members must be fully aware how much beauty was added to this part of London and 919 how much enjoyment was given to the people by the strips of garden which existed between the Houses of Parliament and Charing Cross. It was not too much, therefore, to ask that something of the same kind should be done for the East End of London also, for people whose lives were carried on under conditions far less favourable than those which existed in Westminster and the West End. He trusted that, under all the circumstances, the House would assent to the first of the clauses he intended to propose, and which provided that the Metropolitan Board of Works should lay out a piece of land in All Saints, Poplar, as a recreation ground.
§ New Clause (Board to lay out piece of land in All Saints, Poplar, as a recreation ground,)—(Mr. Bryce,))—brought up, and read the first time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be now read a second time."
§ SIR JAMES M'GAREL-HOGGsaid, he was sorry that he could not accede to the request which had been made to him by his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Bryce) to adopt these clauses. He might say that during the time he had had the honour to be Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works a great number of Bills had been introduced by the Board for the purpose of improving various parts of the Metropolis; and he had never known a single case in which the House had intervened and said that the Metropolitan Board or any other corporate body, so far as he was aware, should turn certain pieces of land which came within the limits of the line of deviation of their works into recreation ground or any other purpose for the use of the general public. In the present Bill the Metropolitan Board proposed to carry out important works for the advantage of the public; and in regard to the special improvement for which this land had been acquired, it was for the Metropolitan Board, and not for the House, to say how any surplus which might be left should be disposed of. The land in All Saints, Poplar, had been scheduled for the express purpose of the present Bill, to be applied towards recouping to some extent the ratepayers of the Metropolis for the expense they would have to incur in 920 carrying out these public improvements. With regard to this particular plot of land, of which his hon. Friend had spoken in such glowing terms, he wished to inform the House that the whole of it amounted to one and a-quarter acres, and out of that a considerable portion would have to be used for the approaches to the ferry. As a matter of fact, only about half an acre on either side of the ferry approach would be available for a garden or recreation ground; and if the Metropolitan Board were to study economy, in the interests of the ratepayers, it was necessary to dispose of the surplus land for building purposes, so that some portion of the cost of the ferry might be provided out of it. If the House of Commons were now to step in and were to say that the Metropolitan Board were to acquire the whole of the land within the line of deviation, what would be the result? Why, that they would have to pay a very large price indeed for this public improvement. In regard to the question of cost, he might say that about a fortnight ago he went down to Poplar, to the Isle of Dogs, for the purpose of opening the East and West Perry Roads for the benefit of the inhabitants at large; and he was glad to find that the inhabitants fully appreciated what the Metropolitan Board were doing for them. As to these pieces of land of half an acre on each side of the approaches, he might point out, as a question of justice to the ratepayers generally, that the Metropolitan Board wore proposing to establish, at a very large cost, free ferries for the inhabitants of Poplar; and there was certainly one question which he would like to put to any intelligent man who understood the matter. What would any person who lived in Poplar or the Isle of Dogs like to do? Would he wish to have this plot of ground, less than one and a-quarter acres in extent, laid out as a recreation ground, or would he prefer to get across the river to Greenwich Park, where, at no cost whatever, he would be able to enjoy the beauties and enchantment of that famous popular resort? It was altogether out of the question that this piece of land could be of real advantage to the public for purposes of recreation. It would involve, in his opinion, a useless expenditure of public money, and it would be I most unusual for the House of Com- 921 mons to insert such a clause in a measure proposed by a Corporation or any other body representing the ratepayers. In point of fact, the Metropolitan Board of Works had already issued their notices, and they had no power to do what they were asked to do. In compliance with the Standing Orders of the House, they had simply asked for power to acquire this land for the purpose of utilizing it in constructing the approaches to the ferry. They had never thought of providing any recreation ground whatever; and so far as the land itself was concerned, instead of being suitable for such an object, as his hon. Friend asserted, it was most unsuitable, independently of the fact that, in compelling the Metropolitan Board to devote it to purposes of public recreation and enjoyment, the House would be casting aside every principle of fair play which had hitherto guided them in regard to Bills introduced into the House of Commons by the Metropolitan Board or any other corporate body. It was preposterous to direct the Metropolitan Board, in this or any other instance, to use the land acquired, for a particular object for the purposes of a recreation ground, whether they liked it or not. He believed he might fairly claim for the Metropolitan Board that they had never been backward in doing the best they could for the interests of the people. Already they had been instrumental in securing nearly 2,000 acres of open land around the Metropolis, and throwing it open for the free use of the general public. In the very Bill which he held in his hand, they proposed to lay out 72 acres of land in Dulwich for the purposes of a public park, and there were provisions in the Bill enabling them to negotiate with the Governors of Dulwich College for that purpose. They were also endeavouring to convert High bury Fields at Islington into an open space, for the enjoyment of the public hero-after, and were proposing to establish streets which would form a direct communication between this open space and Islington. The body of which his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Bryce) was the mouthpiece were very anxious that the Metropolitan Board should now throw open a valuable piece of land which they desired to make use of in order to recoup the ratepayers, to some extent, for the 922 large expenditure which these public improvements would involve; and it was suggested that this land, very little larger than the Chamber in which they were assembled, should be converted into a recreation ground. Now-a-days, certain persons seemed to think that everything ought to be turned into a public recreation ground. He, for one, certainly did not entertain that opinion. Parliament had imposed upon the Metropolitan Board very onerous duties and conditions, and the result was that they were required to pay very large sums of money—very much larger than they had any right to anticipate—both in regard to compensation and other expenses. Under all the circumstances, he thought the Metropolitan Board were justified in paying some attention to the interests of the ratepayers, and in trying to keep within reasonable bounds in regard to the public improvements which they carried out from time to time. He therefore felt himself called upon to ask the House to reject the clauses which his hon. Friend had placed upon the Paper.
§ MR. ONSLOWsaid, that although upon most occasions he had supported his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Truro (Sir James M 'Garel-Hogg) in any matter connected with the Metropolitan Board of Works, still upon this occasion he was sorry to say that he should not be found in the same Lobby as his hon. Friend. During the last few weeks he had had many opportunities of visiting the East End of London; and the experience he had recently gained convinced him of the strong feeling there was among the working classes of the district to obtain possession of this small piece of land for a recreation ground. The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Bryce), in proposing these clauses, pleaded on behalf of a particular society. Now, he (Mr. On slow) did not in the slightest degree speak on behalf of that society, although he did not deny that it might have done a certain amount of good; but, at the same time, ho believed that the members of it held somewhat fanatical views about the acquisition of land in the Metropolis for recreation grounds. Therefore, he did not appear before the House on that occasion to speak on behalf of that society; but he supported the proposal of the hon. Member opposite because he knew from the knowledge he had recently 923 acquired that a very large number of the working classes and others of Poplar were extremely desirous that this piece of land should be converted into a recreation ground. His hon. Friend the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board said the proposal would involve the waste of a large sum of money, which ought to be utilized for the benefit of the ratepayers of the Metropolis generally. His (Mr. Onslow's) opinion was that it would not involve the waste of a large sum of money. If it entailed an addition to the rates of the Metropolis to any objectionable extent, he certainly would not vote for it; but it appeared to him that these 1½ acres might be laid out very easily indeed, at a comparatively small cost. He thought if his hon. and gallant Friend went a little more into detail, he would find that he took an exaggerated view of the cost, and that the Metropolitan Board would in reality sacrifice very little in handing over this land to the public. The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets said that this would be a good place for children and nursery maids to resort to; and almost in the same breath the hon. Member said it was much better that they should go there rather than while away their time in the public-house. He (Mr. On slow) regretted that the public-house should be so constantly lugged in, in connection with this question of providing recreation grounds. The argument of the hon. Member was that the public, whenever they had the opportunity, would rather visit a recreation ground than the public-house. The publican was always held up by hon. Gentlemen who held the views of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets as the great sinner in the Metropolis in these respects. Perhaps it was scarcely necessary that he (Mr. On slow) should say it was not because he believed that people would while away their time in the public-house that he supported the proposal of the hon. Member. His hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Truro (Sir James M'Garel-Hogg) said the Metropolitan Board did not like to be dictated to, and that they objected to be forced to do this or that, even by the House of Commons. He was not one of those who in any way desired to dictate to the Metropolitan Board. He knew the enormous amount of good that Board had accomplished under the 924 presidency of his hon. Friend; and having sat on various Committees in which the work of the Board had been concerned, he knew very well that whenever they had the opportunity the Metropolitan Board were unceasing in their endeavours to do good for the working classes of the Metropolis. But the question involved in the present Bill was a very small matter indeed. He thought the plot of land to which the Motion applied was required for a recreation ground for the general public of the East End of London; and he hoped the House would come to the conclusion that it would be right to grant to the East End this small boon, which would not entail an excessive amount of expenditure, and would be greatly appreciated by the residents in the locality.
§ MR. W. H. JAMESsaid, that as he had long taken an interest in the preservation of open spaces in the Metropolis, and had also been a Member of the Committee which considered the present Bill, he wished to say a word upon the question which had been raised by his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Bryce). The proposal to which the Motion related was contained in that part of the Bill which dealt with the establishment of free ferries across the Thames between Greenwich and Poplar. There were some divisions in the Committee upon the subject, some Members objecting, generally, to the principle of establishing free ferries. If there was to be a free ferry, why should there not be a free train, and a free omnibus? The general tenour of the evidence before the Committee was that so much had been done to open up and free the communications across the river above London Bridge that it was necessary to improve and facilitate the means of communication below London Bridge. As a matter of fact, this free ferry would really be nothing else than a large floating bridge. The money which would be required for the purpose of establishing and, keeping up this ferry would be levied upon the whole of the Metropolitan area, and it would have an immediate effect in increasing the value of the land which happened to be contiguous. There could not be the slightest doubt that the value of this plot of land would be enormously increased as soon as the ferry was established, and that the Metropolitan Board would in all 925 probability be able to utilize that portion of it which would be left vacant for building purposes as a commercial speculation, which would be the means of recouping themselves to a certain extent for the rates it would be necessary, in the first instance, to raise over the whole of the Metropolitan area. In the discussion of the proceedings before Private Bill Committees he had often thought that the interests of the general public in the presence of the interests of powerful individuals or associations were frequently neglected. He thought it was not only right, but fair and equitable, that Parliament and its Committees should keep in view the interests of the public generally. If it was right that the people of this locality should have a special advantage in the nature of a free ferry at the expense of other Londoners, it was also right that the Metropolitan Board should not make the opportunity one for commercial speculations, and the money now to be invested should be laid out in a manner most advantageous for the general public who might use the ferry. Under these circumstances, he strongly supported his hon. Friend's clause.
§ MR. WARTONsaid, he did not propose to address the House upon the question before it. He had simply risen for the purpose of calling the attention of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Bryce) to an informality in the form of his proposal. In the last line he spoke of "Clause 14;" but if it were added to the Bill it would become a "section," and not a "clause." He trusted that the hon. Member, if the Motion were carried, would amend it in that respect.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 136; Noes 56: Majority 80—(Div. List, No. 197.)
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be added to the Bill."
§ MR. WARTONsaid, he wished again to call the attention of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets to the point he had referred to before the division took place—namely, that the term used in the last line of the new clause should be "section," and not "clause."
§ MR. SPEAKERsaid, the hon. and learned Member for Bridport (Mr. War-ton) was too late. The proper time to have moved an Amendment was when the Question was put.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ MR. SPEAKERDoes the hon. Member move the 2nd clause?
§ MR. BRYCEsaid, he did. He begged to move a further clause to provide that—
All powers and authorities vested in the Board by sections two to eleven, inclusive, of The Metropolitan Board of Works Act, 1877, shall, upon the passing of this Act, apply to the said piece of land in the parish of All Saints, Poplar, and to every part there of when the same has been so laid out as a public garden, as aforesaid, as if the same had been included in the Schedule of Parks' to the said Metropolitan Board of Works Act, 1877.
§ New Clause—(Powers of Metropolitan Board of Works Act, 1877, to apply to recreation ground at Poplar,)—[Mr. Bryce,)—brought up, and read the first and second time, and added.
§ Bill to be read the third time.