HC Deb 07 May 1885 vol 297 cc1857-9
MR. ONSLOW

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, What steps have been taken to inform the Ameer of Afghanistan of the agreement recently arrived at between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Russia on the subject of arbitration on the unprovoked aggression of General Komaroff on Penjdeh; and, whether the Viceroy of India has signified his approval of the recent decisions of Her Majesty's Government?

MR. HEALY

rose to Order. He wished to know whether the words "unprovoked aggression" ought to be allowed to appear upon the Paper; and whether it was not an insult to a Foreign Power on a very delicate matter?

MR. SPEAKER

I understand that the Question of the hon. Member alludes to an expression previously used, and that the words are referred to as a quotation.

MR. GLADSTONE

If the expression referred to is intended to be a repetition of a phrase expressive of my own opinion it is nothing of the kind, and, moreover, it is not an accurate quotation. What I said was as follows:—Upon the very first day, I think, of the arrival of the first telegrams from Sir Peter Lumsden, having gone through all the material parts, or what we judged to be the material parts, of these telegrams as they had arrived, I stated that upon the face of those Papers what had taken place appeared to be an unprovoked aggression. I never presumed at that moment to qualify or to describe the incident in conclusive terms, because I knew very well that the information which we had received was partial; and, in point of fact, it was within 24 hours, or certainly within a very short time after the receipt of those telegrams, that very important qualifications of the information they conveyed were received from Sir Peter Lumsden himself. So much for this expression; and I will only observe that there is now a constant practice of inserting in Questions, as if they were matters of course, matters which do not touch the point of the Questions, but involve assumptions of the utmost consequence, and that these assumptions are sometimes made—as in the present instance—with very slight regard to accuracy. As to the substantial part of the Question, I am bound to say that this expression had escaped my attention, because it does not belong to the main issue of the Question. The Viceroy of India has arranged with the Ameer the basis upon which the British Government is proceeding; and if any further communication on the subject with the Ameer should be requisite he will make it. To that Question the hon. Member adds the inquiry whether the Viceroy of India approves the decisions which Her Majesty's Government have come to? I do not see that it would be any part of my duty to answer such a Question. The Viceroy of India must be taken to approve these decisions; and when the proper times comes the hon. Member will have plenty of information—perhaps a little more than he may like—as to what the Viceroy does think on the point.

MR. ONSLOW

I must remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Viceroy, in the speech he made after his return from Rawul Pindi, also made use of the words.

MR. T. D. SULLIVAN

I should like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, on the point of Order arising out of your ruling a moment ago, whether, if an expression is used in the course of a debate in this House, it will afterwards be in Order if quoted in a Question?

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is putting an utterly strained interpretation on my words.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

May I ask the Prime Minister whether it is not the case that the Viceroy of India, in a speech at the Durbar, in presence of a large number of Natives, described the attack of the Russians on the Afghans as an "unprovoked aggression," without any of the qualification which the Prime Minister now seeks to introduce?

MR. GLADSTONE

I have not before me the exact words of the Viceroy on the occasion. [Ironical cheers and laughter.] I am not surprised at that demonstration; but I must enter my protest against it on behalf of the dignity and the traditions of the House. To me, personally, it is a very small matter that such demonstrations should be made; but to this House, and the future of this House, it is a very grave matter. ["Order!"] I am not out of Order. I have not the smallest doubt that the expressions used by the Viceroy have been perfectly warranted by the circumstances.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

I shall put the Question to the right hon. Gentleman to-morrow.