§ MR. SEXTON,Member for the County of Sligo, rose in his place, and asked leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance—viz., the course of action pursued by Mr. Speaker during the sitting of the House on the 24th ultimo, in silencing the Member for Wexford (Mr. W. Redmond), naming the Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien), and procuring the application of the Closure Rule to a debate; and the consequent danger to the constitutional rights of Members of this House to speak and vote.
§ MR. SPEAKERWill the hon. Member bring the Notice to the Table?
§ Mr. SEXTONhaving accordingly handed in his Notice,
§ MR. SPEAKERI think it my duty to make some remarks to the House in connection with this Motion which the hon. Member has just handed to me. It would, I think, be a matter of very grave and dangerous import if, upon such action as the hon. Member proposes now to take, my conduct in the Chair were impugned. The House has intrusted me, as Speaker of this House, with large discretionary powers, and those discretionary powers have been greatly increased by the Rules that were passed at the close of 1882, If, upon my exercise of any of those powers, my action is to be brought before the notice of the House, not by way of definite Motion, to which a definite Amendment can be moved, but by way of casual conversation and indirect assaults upon the Chair; then, I say, and I say it solemnly, that the bonds of discipline in this House will be relaxed, and a grave, if not a fatal, blow will be aimed at the authority of the Chair. I have pointed out the consequences which would ensue. I have also to point out to the House that the action now proposed to be taken by the hon. Member is out of Order. It is my duty to respect the rights of every hon. Member of this House; but, in common with all other Members of this House, I have my rights, and my right is that, if my 1913 conduct is impugned, it should be impugned by a direct appeal to the House, upon Notice of Motion, properly given, when a direct issue would be laid before the House, and au Amendment be moved which shall test the judgment of the House. I ruled this on more than one occasion during last year, both in the ordinary and in the Autumn Session; and I should not be doing my duty to the House if, for the sake of getting any personal advantage by having the matter immediately discussed, I were to transgress what I believe to be a Rule and Order of the House. It is to my interest, as I said before, to have this matter fully discussed; but I must rule that the action taken by the hon. Member is out of Order, and I will take upon myself not to allow this Motion to be submitted to the House. I submit my conduct to the judgment of the House, and by the verdict of the House I must and I am content to abide.
§ MR. SEXTON(who rose amid cries of "Order!"): I trust, Sir, that, after the observations which you have felt it your duty to make, the House will allow me, as the Member who presented the Motion to you—[Cries of "No!"]—to say a few words by way of personal explanation. I wish to disavow any particle of personal feeling or hostility towards yourself, and I accept, in the fullest sense, the declaration of your own rights, as well as of the rights of other Members of the House. I respectfully assure you that no other feeling than the desire to vindicate the rights of private Members prompted me to take the painful course I have taken. You have spoken of indirect assaults upon the Chair. I hope, Sir, that it is not in my nature to make indirect assaults; and I beg to say that, on Thursday last, I did give Notice of the definite Motion on this subject, and it was only the action of the Government, in refusing me the opportunity, which prevented me from bringing on that Motion. I will conclude what I have now to say by asking the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Government has debarred me on one occasion, and that I have again been prevented, by the ruling of Mr. Speaker, from bringing on the Motion, he will consider the inconvenience and impropriety of having a charge of this kind hang- 1914 ing over the Chair for an indefinite period, and that the Government will give facilities to a considerable body of Members of this House, who desire to impeach the conduct of Mr. Speaker, to bring the matter to a regular test?
MR. GLADSTONEThe hon. Member has addressed a question to me which he has supported by a plea, and the plea is that he was debarred, on Friday last, by the action of the Government, from bringing forward a direct Motion on the subject of the conduct of the Speaker. Now, I apprehend that the hon. Member is altogether wrong in saying that he was so debarred by the action of the Government. The Government has no power to set aside the Order of the House which requires Supply to be set down on the Paper as the first Business on Friday. It was the desire of the House and the act of the House which set aside that Order, so that we might proceed with the debate on the Vote of Censure. [An hon. MEMBER: The Government proposed it, though.] Therefore, there is no ground for the plea of the hon. Member. His proposal now is that the Government should consent to some arrangement whereby, in derogation of the Rule lately established with regard to giving precedence to the Parliamentary Flections (Redistribution) Bill, he may be enabled to bring forward his charge against the Speaker in a direct form. I entirely appreciate the desire of the hon. Member to bring that charge in a direct form, and I will go further and say that I had just now to express my sincere regret for the great inconvenience that arose from the pressure put upon the individual action of Members in consequence of the decision of the House with regard to the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill. I am very sorry that the hon. Member's Motion should be delayed; but I cannot agree to depart from the Rule which the House has considered it absolutely necessary to lay down, or to introduce any principle of arbitrary selection for permitting either this or any particular question to be brought forward in derogation of the Rule laid down by the House in regard to the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill. I am not aware why a Motion to be made by the hon. Member to impugn the ruling of Mr. Speaker 1915 should be more favoured than any other Motion.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORIt relates to the first employment of the Clôture Resolution.
MR. GLADSTONEI fail to understand what that has to do with it. In my opinion there is nothing in the nature of a Motion of that sort to entitle it to precedence. There is a Motion of the same character now on the Books, of which Notice has been given by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell), impugning in the most decisive manner the ruling and conduct of Mr. Speaker, and appended to that Motion is an Amendment which is very adverse indeed to the terms of the Motion. These Notices have been quietly on the Papers of this House since the month of November last, and no application has been made to the Government in regard to them to interfere with the ordinary course of Business in order to allow those Notices to be discussed. It is quite evident that I should be establishing a most formidable precedent if I were to admit, when any Member or body of Members—I care not which—one Member has just as good a right to challenge the ruling of the Speaker as any body of Members—I should be establishing a precedent of a character most formidable to the discipline of the House, if I were, by any act on the part of the Government, to accede to a proposition which implies that whenever the ruling of Mr. Speaker is to be questioned, precedence is to be given to a Motion of that kind in derogation of the ordinary Rules of Business. I am sorry to say, therefore, that I cannot give the hon. Member the precedence he desires.
§ MR. SEXTONWill the right hon. Gentleman consent, when the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill has been dealt with, to give facilities for the discussion of this Motion? Or will a body of Members who desire to raise a question which gravely and fundamentally concerns the rights of Members, be relegated hopelessly to the chance of the ballot?
MR. GLADSTONEI have already been obliged to-night, in reply to a Question put to mo with reference to a Bill of great interest and importance, to say that I am unable to make any promise. "When the time arrives to which 1916 the hon. Member looks forward, it will be open to him to repeat his request, and I will endeavour to give that answer to it which may appear to be dictated by considerations of prudence and convenience.
§ MR. O'DONNELL(who rose amid cries of "Order"): I desire, Sir——
§ MR. SPEAKERI must point out to the hon. Member that there is no Question before the House.
§ MR. O'DONNELLI desire to make a personal explanation, Sir, which is necessitated by the reference just made by the Prime Minister to the Motion now standing upon the Paper in my name, and relating to your conduct in the Chair, for which no day has been filed. I originally put down that Motion to be discussed on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply, with the intention of bringing it on at as early a date as possible. But I received a letter from the Clerk at the Table informing me that it was not in Order to contest the ruling and conduct of Mr. Speaker in that manner, but that the matter should be brought on by a separate and distinct Motion; and, of course, the Clerk at the Table, on your authority, Sir, I presume, put down the Motion, which I had intended to bring forward on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply, among the Motions for which no day has been fixed; and for the subsequent disposal of the time of the House not I, but I believe Her Majesty's Government, are responsible.
§ MR. HEALYIn regard to your ruling, Mr. Speaker, that your conduct in the Chair cannot be discussed except a definite issue be raised, I wish to ask if it is not the fact that Mr. Speaker Brand, on the 4th of August, 1881, allowed the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) to call attention to the suspension of the hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. O'Kelly), on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply, and at a time when no definite issue could be taken?
§ MR. SPEAKERThere was a very strong objection taken, if I remember rightly, to allowing the matter to come on in an interlocutory form.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.
§
The following is the Entry in the Votes:—
Mr. Sexton, Member for the County of Sligo, rose in his place, and asked leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, viz., the course of action pursued by Mr. Speaker during the sitting of the House on the 24th ultimo, in silencing the Member for Wexford, naming the Member for Mallow, and procuring the application of the Closure Rule to a Debate; and the consequent danger to the constitutional rights of Members of this House to speak and vote:—
Thereupon Mr. Speaker declared that the course proposed by the honourable Member for Sligo was out of order, on the ground that the conduct of the Speaker could only be impugned upon a direct appeal to the House, by a substantive Motion, open to Amendment, on which a definite issue could be raised, and the judgment of the House obtained. He therefore took upon himself not to allow the Motion of the honourable Member to be submitted to the House.