HC Deb 12 August 1885 vol 300 cc1894-913

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

MR. SEXTON

asked whether the Government could now state the names of the three Assistant Commissioners to be appointed under the Act? The Chief Commissioners (Lord Justice Fitz Gibbon and the Right Hon. John Naish, ex-Lord Chancellor) were named in the Bill.

MR. HEALY

said, he hoped that it was not true Dr. Mahaffy was to be appointed Secretary of the Commission, for it was hardly an office he could fill with satisfaction. No person respected more than they did Dr. Mahaffy's abilities; he was a man of high attainments, and a credit to his country; but he was a gentleman who entertained strong opinions upon the matters dealt with in this Bill.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, there was no foundation for the rumour referred to by the hon. and learned Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy). Of course, Dr. Mahaffy was a man very well qualified for this office; but he was certainly not a gentleman who would be likely to be appointed Secretary of a Commission of this kind, for the simple reason that his position in the literary world placed him far above it. Indeed, the idea had never been suggested that he should. As to the Assistant Commissioners, he (Mr. Holmes) was afraid the Government were not in a position to give the names of the Assistant Commissioners at present, for this reason—that they had not yet communicated with the gentlemen who were eligible for the offices. However, the Bill provided, and care would be taken, that the three gentlemen who would be appointed would be well qualified in educational matters. He thought the House would trust the Government that proper appointments would be made.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 (Interpretation of terms).

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, he proposed to omit the words in the clause having reference to an Incorporated Society, there being no such society in Ireland to which the description in the clause would apply. The draftsman appeared to have adopted the words from a Scotch Act passed a few years ago; but they were not applicable to Ireland.

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 18, to leave out from the word "purposes" to end of line 23.

Amendment agreed to.

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND, the following Amendment made:—Page 1, line 27, after "thereof," insert "and shall include the Commissioners of Education in Ireland."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 (Short title) agreed to.

Clause 3 (Commencement of Act).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 2, line 10, leave out "November," and insert "October."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Commissioners.

Clause 4 (Appointment of Commissioners).

MR. SEXTON

said, he thought this would be a convenient time for the right hon. and learned Gentleman to tell the Committee how the new Board would work. As the clause stood in the Bill there were to be three Commissioners, who had equal responsibilities and equal powers; but this clause was to be struck out, and the new Board was to consist of five Members, of whom two were to be Judicial Commissioners, the other three being called Assistant Commissioners. The Right Hon. Gerald FitzGibbon was certainly a gentleman of great experience in the work of education, and one of the Commission upon whose Report the Bill was founded; and, with Ex-Lord Chancellor Naish, he had no reason for doubting that in any jurisdiction they might exercise under this Act they would pay considerable regard to the interest of the Catholic people of Ireland, so long forgotten or neglected in regard to the educational endowments of their country. In no hostile spirit did he comment on these appointments. As to the Assistant Comsioners, it was inconvenient not to have their names, because a scheme of this character would altogether depend upon the persons who were appointed to work it, and his appreciation of the scheme might be favourably affected if he knew the men who would carry it out. How was the work to be divided between the Judicial Commissioners and the Assistant Commissioners? The Judicial Commissioners were to sign every scheme submitted to the Lord Lieutenant, but the others were not to do so; therefore, as to the functions of the Assistant Commissioners, he was left somewhat in the dark; but he supposed they would do something in the preparatory work. But there was a curious and novel line of cleavage between them. It appeared that the Judicial Commissioners, by certificate to the Lord Lieutenant, might override the opinion of the Assistant Commissioners. It was essential, he thought, to have some explanation on this point. Then he observed that the Judicial Commissioners were not to be subject to any personal liability for costs or otherwise in respect of anything done or omitted by them as Commissioners. They would receive no salary—that he supposed was because they had no responsibility, and then there was a curious difference in the tenure of office of the Judicial Commissioners and the Assistant Commissioners, the former holding office during good behaviour, the Assistant Commissioners during the pleasure of the Lord Lieutenant. What was the meaning of that difference? He thought the Assistant Commissioners should have as good a tenure of office as their Judicial Colleagues.

THE CHAIRMAN

I may ask the hon. Gentleman whether it would not be more regular to raise this discussion on the new clause which touches all these points?

MR. SEXTON

said, technically it might be so; but he had mentioned thorn now, and it would save explanation again. The only other observation he had to make was in regard to the power of the Treasury to assign the salaries to the Assistant Commissioners and others. The Treasury were apt, he thought, to starve Irish salaries, and it would be better to have the salaries fixed in the Bill.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, the questions put to him were perfectly reasonable, even if they were not strictly regular, and he thought the Committee would allow him to reply. It would enable them to understand the nature of the changes made in the Bill. As the Bill originally stood, and as it was passed by the House of Lords, there were to be three Commissioners, who would be bound to give their entire time to the discharge of their duties under the Bill. It seemed to the Government, on consideration, that if this arrangement were adhered to, it would be hardly possible to obtain the services of the class of men required for the purpose of framing schemes for the management of endowments in a satisfactory manner. First-rate men could not be obtained, because they were invariably engaged in other affairs; and having regard to the fact that it was a temporary Commission, coming to an end in two years, it would be impossible to secure the services of the class of men required if the original clause were adhered to. It was quite right there should be a certain proportion of paid officials on the Board; but if those gentlemen were allowed to conduct scholastic and educational work, giving a portion of their time to work under the Bill, then he believed they could get the men they desired to have as Assistant Commissioners. The object of the distinction between the Judicial Commissioners and the Assistant Commissioners he would explain. According to the original plan of the Bill, every scheme was subject to the revision of the Court of Chancery upon application of any person affected; and that, of course, would throw considerable expense on the Board, the matter being argued by counsel on either side in long and elaborate discussion. On the whole, the Government did not think that would be a satisfactory way of arranging matters. They thought it better to have the decision of distinguished men of legal experience and knowledge of educational wants, who would not be required to give up their whole time, and through them, in the first instance, schemes would be presented. The two unpaid Judicial Commissioners would take the place of the Court of Chancery; by signing their names they would give their sanction; and in the new clause it would be provided that no scheme should be brought before the Lord Lieutenant in Council for approval without the signatures of the two Judicial Commissioners. The division of labour between the two classes of Commissioners would amount to this—the scheme, so far as it dealt with educational matters, would be prepared by the Assistant Commissioners; it would then be brought before the Judicial Commissioners, who would look at it as lawyers having regard to the interests of all classes, and they, being gentlemen of high educational endowments, would be enabled to revise, in any material respect, the schemes submitted to them; then, on their high authority, and with their signatures as proof of their sanction, the scheme would be brought before the notice of the Lord Lieutenant in Council. That was how the Commission would work, and would show why, in the new clause, two classes of Commissioners were provided. He was not in a position to give the names of the Assistant Commissioners; but he thought the names of the Judicial Commissioners would indicate the lines upon which the appointments would be made. He regretted that he could not give the names. For his not doing so there were two causes—first, the difficulty of communicating with fit and proper persons within the short time the Government had had for the purpose; and, secondly, the illness of the Viceroy for the last day or two; but he trusted the names would be made known in a very short time. As to the responsibilities that were not to attach to the Judicial Commissioners, he thought it better that the words should apply to the whole body of Commissioners. With regard to the tenure of office of the Assistant Commissioners, it was usual in offices of that character, and he did not like to set a different precedent. Of course, having regard to the high position of the Judicial Commissioners, they ought not to be liable to removal at a moment's notice by the Lord Lieutenant.

MR. HEALY

said, he had no doubt the Government would do their best to make the Act work well. He hoped they would avoid imitating the appointments made under the Intermediate Education Act, or grafting on any paid official from that Board to this new Board. They were gentlemen whose conduct had been frequently questioned in that House, not so scrupulously as was intended, but several questions had been asked. He trusted they would take nobody officially connected with the Education Board, like Mr. Crouch and others; to do so would only give rise to additional discontent.

MR. SEXTON

said, if it was the usual course for Assistant Commissioners to hold office during the pleasure of the Lord Lieutenant he did not object; but had it been consonant with usage he should have preferred that all should hold office during good behaviour.

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND Clause omitted.

Clause 5 (Powers of Commissioners).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 2, line 43, after "or," insert ("in the case of endowments applicable for intermediate education").

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 4, to leave out the word "solely."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

COLONEL KING-HARMAN

said, he did not quite understand why the word should be struck out. There was no intention to divert endowments from their purpose.

MR. SEXTON

said, the word was no doubt uselessly introduced.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, the word was technically correct according to the original reading of the clause, which provided for the transfer of elementary education endowments to the Commissioners of National Education; but on consideration the Government did not think that was desirable; and the only provision now proposed was that such endowments should be subject to the inspection of the National Board.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, In page 3, line 4, after the word "education," to leave out the words "transferring such endowments to," and insert "placing the schools under the inspection and control of."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.).

MR. SEXTON

said, while he was willing to allow theg Commissioners of National Education in such cases the power of inspection, the words "inspection and control" conferred too much power. "Control" should be omitted.

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "and control."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendments made:—Page 3, line 5, leave out from "education," to end of line 6; line 13, after first "governing bodies," insert "or transferring endowments from one governing body to another;" line 15, at end, add "or vesting endowments in any existing corporate bodies in trust for such governing bodies;" line 16, after "sell," insert "demise;" line 21, after "sales," insert "demises."

MR. HEALY

said, this clause dealt with investments, and it was natural those would be made through the Bank of Ireland. Though he was not raising objection upon this point now, it was right it should be understood that in future any Government Bills coming before the House and dealing with investments would be closely criticized, and, if necessary, opposed; and this institution must sooner or later pass under considerable changes, and it would be well, until those were effected, to use some other medium not so likely soon to form the subject of stringent inquiry and discussion.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 (Scope of Commission).

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, the object of this clause, apart from the reference to Industrial Museums and Libraries, was, as far as possible, to keep endowments to localities; but, on consideration, he thought that thereby the action of the Commission would be unduly restricted, and an endowment, however valuable in itself, might be deprived of its full value. As to Industrial Museums and Libraries, however valuable as adjuncts, they were not educational institutions in the ordinary sense of the term.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the Clause.—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Amendment agreed to.

Clause omitted.

Endowments subject to Commission.

Clause 7 (Act not to apply to certain endowments).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 4, line 8, leave out from "be," to "given," in line 11.

Amendment proposed, In page 4, line 13, at end of line, insert as new sub-sections—(5.) "Or to any endowment consisting of voluntary subscriptions, or accumulations, or investments thereof; or (6) To any endowment applicable exclusively for the benefit of persons of any particular religious denomination, and which is under the exclusive control of persons of that denomination."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Question proposed, "That the new sub-sections be there inserted."

MR. SEXTON

said, he did not think "applicable" was quite the right word to use. Money used in one direction for many years might from use be applicable. "Provided," or "intended exclusively," would be better.

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, after the word "exclusively," add the words "and provided."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 (Apportionment of mixed endowments).

MR. SEXTON

asked what was the meaning of the words "other charitable uses," where any part of an educational endowment within the meaning of the Act was applied to other purposes? Was it held that education was a charitable purpose?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, it had been held so again and again.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 9 (Application to education of non-educational endowments).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 5, line 33, at end add— The Commissioners, with the consent of the Commissioners of Education in Ireland, may by any scheme or schemes under this Act confer upon the said Commissioners of Education all or any such further, additional, or amended powers as may appear necessary or expedient for the management and control of the endowments vested in or controlled by the said Commissioners of Education, or for the efficient exercise of the powers of the said Commissioners.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10 (Endowments for apprenticeship fees, maintenance, and clothing, to be deemed educational).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 6, line 2, after "fees," insert "or for marriage portions;" line 4, after "children," insert "or young persons."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Requisites of Schemes.

Clause 11 (Vested interests) agreed to.

Clause 12 (Interests acquired after passing of Act).

MR. SEXTON

said, he would direct the right hon. and learned Gentleman's attention to the language of line 32— But this provision shall not prevent them (the Governing Body) from continuing any works begun before the passing of this Act, or from doing anything necessary for the repair or maintenance of buildings or residences existing at the passing of this Act. The Governing Body might have applied their funds to building or enlarging of schools—the work might have just commenced—he did not see why they should be allowed to continue such, or to maintain buildings that might be put to better use, or were quite unsuited to their purpose. He would propose to omit the words "containing any works begun before the passing of this Act, or——"

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, it would have a most unsatisfactory result to omit these words. As soon as the Act became law no new work would be commenced; but if the work was actually begun it would be a most unsatisfactory thing to leave it unfinished. Besides, the Governing Body would be liable for breaches of contract.

MR. SEXTON

said, then perhaps the words "under contract" after "begun" might be inserted.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, suppose a house had been half built under contract or not, it would be a most unsatisfactory thing that the house should not be allowed to be finished.

MR. SEXTON

said, but suppose they had just dug out the foundations of an expensive building of which the Commissioners could not approve, was it best to allow the Governing Body to go on spending hundreds of pounds in a way the Commissioners did not approve?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, he thought the Governing Bodies might be left to their discretion so far.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 13 (Interests of particular classes to be kept in view).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 7, line 4, after "generally," insert "or of a particular class."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14 (Selection of beneficiaries) agreed to.

Clause 15 (Benefits to be extended to girls).

Amendment proposed, in page 7, line 13, after the word "made," to insert the words "if the amount of the endowment will admit."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. THOMASSON

said, this seemed to him to weaken the effect of the clause unnecessarily. The clause provided that the benefits of the Act should be extended, as far as possible, to both sexes; and the words of the clause followed those of the Scotch Act, which did not contain the words now proposed to be inserted, and which he thought not in any way necessary. The provision for an equitable arrangement as far as possible under local circumstances between the sexes was all that was necessary.

MR. WOODALL

said, he would join in the protest against the limitation which the insertion of the words in the clause would seem to imply.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, he did not think they would very much matter. If the endowment did not provide the means, necessarily the arrangement could not be made.

MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD

said, if the words were unimportant then they should be omitted. He could understand that they might be construed so as to be very objectionable.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 16 (Tenure of office of teachers, &c.)

COLONEL NOLAN

said, he thought the language of this clause was a little too strong. It provided for the dismissal at pleasure of every officer or teacher under the Governing Body, and he thought the words "at pleasure" might be omitted. Let the power of summary dismissal remain; but let the officer or teacher have the right to appeal to a Court of Law should he feel aggrieved.

Amendment proposed, in page 7, line 18, to leave out the words "at pleasure."—(Colonel Nolan.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

COLONEL KING-HARMAN

said, there was another point in connection with the power of dismissal; he did not see why, in preparing schemes, the Commissioners should not have power of compensating those whose interests would be affected.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, there was a clause in the Bill providing for that.

MR. HEALY

said, he would point out that lower down in the 17th clause there was a provision for the appointment of a public Inspector—as to which he would have something to say later on—what he had to suggest now was that the wording of the clause— Every teacher and officer in the endowed school or schools would not include the Inspector. There was no power to dismiss him. It might be a very nice legal point whether the Inspector was included among the officers.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, Clause 16 dealt with a different subject-matter to Clause 17. The officers referred to under Clause 16 were the officers of the Governing Body. The Commissioners would not have the power of dismissal in themselves; they would merely make and arrange the scheme which the Governing Body would carry out. The Inspector, under Clause 17, would be an officer appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, and liable to dismissal by him.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17 (Inspection and audit).

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, he did not move the first of his Amendments on the Paper to this clause.

MR. HEALY

thought it would be well to give the power of appointing Inspectors to the Commissioners of National Education as well as to the Lord Lieutenant.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, the objection to that was that it would not be well to give the power to temporary Commissioners, who would cease to hold office at the end of three years.

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 7, line 28, after "Board," insert "or other competent authority."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES) moved, in page 7, line 28, to leave out from "scheme," to "and," in line 31, and insert "the expense of such inspection and audit."

MR. SEXTON

said, that if those words were left out there would be no security in the Bill in regard to the remuneration of these Inspectors, or for the presentation of Reports to the public authorities.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES),

after all, did not think there was any objection to the words, and would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 7, line 31, leave out from "endowments," to end of Clause, and insert "as the scheme may provide."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 18 (Provision for future alteration of schemes).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 7, line 42, leave out "with the consent of the Lord Lieutenant."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 19 to 21, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 22 (Governing body may lodge objections).

MR. SEXTON

said, that before the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland moved his Amendment to this clause he wished to ask him whether he thought that one Commissioner would be sufficient to hold these local public inquiries concerning the subject-matter of schemes? Would it not be better to say "two or more?"

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, he had no objection to that. He would move to leave out the words "one or two," and insert "two or more."

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 23 (As to framing of schemes).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendments made:—Page 8, line 33, after "or," leave out "two," and insert "more;" after "the," insert "judicial."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 24 (Approval of Lord Lieutenant to schemes).

Amendment proposed, In page 9, line 11, to leave out from "months," to "the," in line 13.—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. SEXTON

wished to know whether, after the scheme was drawn up, the Sub-Commissioners had no further concern with it?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, he did not think that at all. The Assistant Commissioners would assist until the matter was completed.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 25 (Proceedings where scheme is remitted).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 9, line 38, after "the," insert "judicial."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 26 (Quorum of Governing Body) agreed to.

Clause 27 (Petition to Chancery Division on questions of law).

Amendment proposed, to leave out the Clause.—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

COLONEL KING-HARMAN

could not understand why the right hon. and learned Gentleman wanted to leave out this and the next clause.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, that these clauses were very proper ones under the original scheme; but having appointed two Head Commissioners it seemed to him that it would embarrass the authorities without necessity if they put them to the expense of these additional appeals from two of the most eminent Judges in Ireland.

MR. SEXTON

said, he should have thought the hon. and gallant Gentleman had got all the appeals he wanted in the Labourers' Act.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause omitted.

Clause 28 (Judgment of Court final. Costs).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND Clause omitted.

Clauses 29 to 33, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 34 (Cost of publishing scheme, &c.)

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 12, line 12, after "cost," leave out "of," and insert "incurred by or under the direction of the Commissioners in."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

moved, in page 12, line 13, to leave out from "Act" to "shall," in line 15, and insert— Shall be part of the expenses incurred under this Act, and any cost properly and necessarily incurred by any governing body under this Act.

MR. SEXTON

said, he saw the words "Dublin Gazette" in the words the right hon. and learned Gentleman proposed to leave out. It appeared to him that by means of this Amendment the right hon. and learned Gentleman was attempting to slide the expenses of The Dublin Gazette into the expenses under this Act. The words should be left as they were.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 35 to 37, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 38 (Returns, &c. by governing body).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendments made:—Page 13, line 2, after Lord Lieutenant," insert "or otherwise;" line 3, after "require," insert "or as any scheme framed under this Act may direct."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 39 (Provision for default of governing body).

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND, the following Amendments made:—Page 13, line 6, after "Lord Lieutenant," leave out "upon the application of," and insert "or for;" line 8, after "Ireland," leave out "or;" line 13, after "of," leave out "the," and insert "any;" line 13, leave out from "Act," to "to," inline 14.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 40 (Duration of powers of making schemes).

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

moved in page 13, line 23, to leave out "seven," and insert "eight." The object of this was to extend the duration of the powers of making and approving of a scheme under this Act from 1887 to 1888.

Amendment proposed, in page 13, line 23, to leave out the word "seven," and insert the word "eight."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. SEXTON

wished to ask the Attorney General for Ireland whether he had fully considered this matter; and whether he thought that three years would be sufficient to complete all the operations under this Act?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, he thought that the 31st of December, 1888, would give them quite sufficient time, because there was a provision in the Bill that if a scheme was commenced by that date, but not carried out, it might even then be completed.

Amendment agreed to.

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND the following Amendment made:—Page 13, line 26, at end, add— Upon the expiration of the said powers the office of the commissioners, and of their secretary, officers, and clerks shall cease; and no assistant commissioner, secretary, officer, or clerk, appointed under this Act, shall, by reason of such appointment, be entitled to any compensation, superannuation, or other allowance in respect of his office.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES) moved, in page 2, after Clause 3, to insert the following Clauses:— The Commissioners shall be five in number, of whom two (hereinafter referred to as the Judicial Commissioners) shall be or have been Judges of the Supreme Court of Judicature in Ireland, and three (hereinafter referred to as Assistant Commissioners) shall be persons of experience in education. The Right honourable Gerald FitzGibbon and the Right honourable John Naish are hereby constituted the first Judicial Commissioners. The Judicial Commissioners shall hold office during good behaviour, they shall receive no payment for their services, and shall not be subjected to any personal liability for costs or otherwise in respect of anything done or omitted by them as such Commissioners. Every scheme submitted for the approval of the Lord Lieutenant in Council under this Act shall be signed by both the Judicial Commissioners for the time being under their hands. It shall be lawful for the Lord Lieutenant to appoint the Assistant Commissioners, who shall hold office during his pleasure; and, upon any vacancy occurring by death, resignation, or otherwise in the office of a Judicial or Assistant Commissioner, it shall be lawful for the Lord Lieutenant to supply such vacancy by the appointment of a qualified person. The Judicial Commissioners may from time to time, with the approval of the Commissioners of the Treasury, appoint a secretary, and such officers, clerks, and servants as they think fit. The Judicial Commissioners may from time to time prescribe the duties of the Assistant Commissioners and of the secretary, officers, clerks, and servants. The Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland shall provide a suitable office in Dublin in which the business of the Commission may be transacted. This section shall take effect on the passing of this Act. The Commissioners of the Treasury shall assign such salaries as they think fit to the Assistant Commissioners, secretary, officers, clerks, and servants appointed under this Act, and, except whore otherwise provided, the salaries and other expenses incurred under this Act (including the personal and travelling expenses of the Judicial Commissioners, and the travelling expenses of the Assistant Commissioners, secretary, and other officers incurred on the business of the Commission, which shall be paid on scales to be approved by the Treasury), and also any expenses incurred by the Lord Lieutenant in Council under this Act, shall be paid out of moneys to be provided by Parliament.

New Clauses (Constitution of Commission) (Salaries and expenses,)—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland,)—brought up, and read the first and second time.

MR. SEXTON

said, that perhaps the right hon. and learned Gentleman would say something further as to the tenure of the office of the Assistant Commissioners, and perhaps, also, there would be no objection to his mentioning the minimum salary which would be paid to those Assistant Commissioners. It was very important that the three Assistant Commissioners under this Act should be high officials, and it was impossible for them to perform those difficult and important duties without they were in receipt of an efficient salary; and, therefore, it would be as well if the Government could mention the minimum salary. They did not like to be left in the dark on this matter.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

pointed out that in the clause he had moved the tenure of office of the Commissioners was dealt with by leaving the matter subject to the pleasure of the Lord Lieutenant. With regard to the other point, he would point out that they had already completed Supply; and, besides that, in order to mention the salary in the Bill, it would be necessary to recommit it, and they could not do that at that late period of the Session. As far as the Irish Executive were concerned, they would urge on the Treasury the necessity of giving good salaries.

MR. SEXTON

asked if the right hon. and learned Gentleman could say what salaries the Irish Government intended to give?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, that was impossible, for they could only make a representation to the Treasury.

MR. HEALY

said, that then what would happen was this—that they would go about trying to get men at low salaries. He hoped they would not deal with this matter in an ungenerous spirit.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE)

said, the Government had no such desire.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND)

said, it was quite impossible for him to make any statement on the subject, except that the Treasury would be pleased to consider any recommendation made by the Irish Government.

Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill.

Preamble.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this be the Preamble of the Bill."

MR. SEXTON

said, he did not think the Preamble was sufficiently comprehensive. It spoke of the desirability of giving a chance to boys and girls of promise; but he would move to strike out all the words after the word "Ireland," and insert "by applying them to the more general benefit of the people."

Amendment proposed, In page 1, line 2, after the word "Ireland," to insert the words "by applying them to the more general benefit of the people."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

said, it appeared to him that there was no great virtue in Preambles; and he would move to leave out all the words after the word "Ireland."

MR. SEXTON

asked whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman would not accept his words?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

No, Sir; I cannot accept them.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND the following Amendment made:—In page 1, line 2, to leave out all the words after "Ireland."

COLONEL COLTHURST

wished to call attention to an omission in the Amendment proposed that afternoon, which might turn out to be an important matter.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

asked the hon. and gallant Member to confer with him before Report, and he would consider the matter.

Bill reported.

MR. HEALY

suggested that they might take the Report now.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)

was afraid they could not do so in consequence of the Money Clauses.

Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.