HC Deb 13 November 1884 vol 293 cc1596-9
MR. WARTON

Mr. Speaker, I wish to take your opinion in regard to the so-called Supplementary Estimates which stand on the Paper for consideration to-night, as to the construction of the Order of the 27th of November, 1882. I want to ask you, Sir, whether this is a case in which you are to leave the Chair without Question put; or, whether it is possible or not to move any kind of Amendment on the Motion that you leave the Chair, which may be germane to the questions about to be considered in Committee—namely, the Expedition up the Nile and the Expedition to Bechuanaland? I submit to you, Sir, that looking carefully at this Rule of November, 1882, it would be a palpable evasion of that Rule to leave the Chair at once upon Motion being made for going into Committee, without affording an opportunity for discussion. The Rule provides— That whenever the Committee of Supply stands as the first Order of the day on Monday or Thursday, Mr. Speaker shall leave the Chair without putting any Question, unless on first going into Supply on the Army, Navy, or Civil Service Estimates respectively, or on any Vote of Credit, an Amendment be moved, or Question raised, relating to the Estimates proposed to be taken in Supply. I shall be glad, Sir, to have your opinion as to what is the true interpretation of this Rule as applied to the present case. We are now at the beginning of a completely new Session, commenced in the usual way by a Speech from the Throne, and certainly this is an occasion of "first going into Supply." In the second place, I would put it to you, Sir, whether the words "or on any Vote of Credit" do not cover the case now before us? It is not enough, I submit, to call the Estimates we are asked to consider "Supplementary Estimates" in order to avoid and evade the effect of the Standing Order, and to bring these Votes under that part of the Rule which makes provisions for exceptions. I contend that this is clearly a Vote of Credit as far as the Army is concerned. It is, practically, a Vote of Credit on account of the Egyptian Expedition, for it is ridiculous to suppose that the sum of £300,000, voted at the end of last Session, would be sufficient to meet the exigencies of the case; and, more than that, we are called upon to grant a Vote for an entirely new subject—namely, an Expedition to Bechuanaland. In that case, the Vote is palpably a Vote of Credit, and I ask for your ruling on the point, whether this is not the first occasion of going into Supply upon a Vote of Credit? I would further point out that, in the third place, seeing that a sum of £300,000 has already been granted for the Army, in connection with the Expedition up the Nile, that the sum of £1,000,000 now asked for may therefore be construed into an Army Supplementary Estimate, and the Estimates submitted in reference to the Navy must be in the same position, seeing that the amounts specified are now asked for for the first time, both as regards Egypt and Bechuanaland. My contention is, Sir, that, both in reference to the Votes for the Army and the Navy, we are now asked to consider Estimates in Committee of Supply for the first time. I therefore wish to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether this is not the first time of going into Supply in the present Session; in the next place, whether the Votes we are asked to grant are not, in reality, Votes of Credit; and, in the third place, whether a grant for an Expedition to Bechuanaland is not an entirely fresh subject, which ought to be dealt with, distinctly, by a Vote of Credit? I await your ruling, Sir, upon these points with great confidence, my contention being that, under the Rule of November 27th, 1882, you would not be justified in leaving the Chair without first putting the Question and affording an opportunity for debate.

MR. SPEAKER

The exceptions contained in the Standing Order of the 27th of November, 1882, apply to first going into Supply on the Army, Navy, or Civil Service Estimates, or on a Vote of Credit. Supplementary Estimates do not come under that Rule. This point was distinctly raised in March, 1883, and it was then explicitly decided by my Predecessor, in reply, if I remember right, to a Question asked by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor), that the Rule did not apply to Supplementary Estimates. Upon several occasions in the course of last Session, Supplementary Estimates were entered upon, and the Speaker immediately left the Chair without Question put. I hold that the Standing Order referred to by the hon. and learned Member for Bridport, applies not to Supplementary Estimates, but to the general Financial Question of the year. In drawing attention to the question, the hon. and learned Member has drawn a distinction between a Vote of Credit and Supplementary Estimates; but these are Supplementary Estimates on the face of them. They are to mate good certain deficiencies under various heads, for the financial year ending upon March 31st, 1885. When the Order for Committee of Supply is read, I shall, therefore, leave the Chair without Question put.