REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL. (Hansard, 5 November 1884)

HC Deb 05 November 1884 vol 293 cc988-96 988

MR. GLADSTONE
I rise, Sir, to move the Motion which stands in my name— That the several stages of any Bill relating to the Representation of the People have precedence of all Orders of the Day, except any further proceedings on the Address and Notices of Motion, on every day for which they may be set down by the Government. I think it might be a matter of convenience if it were disposed of now; but, at the same time, I should not wish to press it if there were objections taken to it; but I observe that the two Gentlemen who have given Notice of Amend 989 ments to my Motion are both in their places; and I observe, also, that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition is now present. With respect to the Motion itself, I think that it will be regarded by the House in general as almost involved, certainly implied, in the announcement made—namely, that we have advised Her Majesty to summon the House together, in order that the House should give its consideration without any avoidable loss of time to the question of the Representation of the People—the Franchise Bill. The loss of time would be enormous to the House if that were only to be done upon the days at the disposal of the Government. I desire, therefore, to propose that, whenever the Franchise Bill, or anything relating to the representation of the people, is set down by the Government, it should take precedence. The method pursued in 1831 and 1832, I am bound to say, was not this method. At that time there was no pressure of Public Business upon the House, and the formal Motions were allowed to pass formally, and the method then pursued was to postpone the Orders of the Day from day to day. Practically the result was the same as it would be in this case. But, as a general rule, the Reform Bill, and nothing but the Reform Bill, was taken. It would not have been possible then to have adopted a Motion of this kind, because the transactions relating to the Reform Bill were such that it was known that their discussion, with its enormous details, would last over a long, a very long, period. I am far from saying that if, through any unhappy combination of circumstances, the discussion of this subject should be greatly prolonged, a Motion of this kind should still remain in force. Then, I think, it would undoubtedly be necessary to modify it. What I am thinking of as the purpose of this Motion is really, in the main, the passing of the Franchise Bill. It is greatly for the convenience of all persons concerned, and so greatly for the convenience, I think, of the other House of Parliament, that no time should be lost in again bringing that Bill under their notice. If that be so, Sir, I do not think that the first Amendment on the Paper, for example, is an Amendment that should be adopted. I do not see any reason why the work of 990 Wednesdays should receive preferential favour at the present time, because the Wednesdays in the autumn are not days on which private Members could count. The House is not called together for the purpose of transacting Business of that kind; and, at any rate, until we make a certain progress with the subject of Parliamentary Reform, I should strongly deprecate making such an exception as the Amendment proposes. If I may presume to represent to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Sir John Hay) and to the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Warton), who have given Notice of Amendments, I should say that, in all probability, the sort of exception more likely to arise would be that which might be deemed urgent by a large portion of the House—something, perhaps, relating to foreign affairs, and in that case a desire being expressed that the Bill should not be set down for any day—that, of course, would be a matter for consideration. But I do not see any other way for giving the requisite despatch to the stages of the Franchise Bill than that suggested in the terms of this Motion. It is evident that to make the Motion from day to day would be practically inviting the waste of a great deal of the time of the House. Then, Sir, with respect to the second Amendment, I can hardly think that any practical necessity is likely to arise on a matter of that kind. But if it should arise, I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Warton) that if any important case should occur in which any legal difficulty were to arise in regard to the operation of an Act of Parliament, that would be undoubtedly a matter which ought to be considered when the time arrived. That is the general ground on which I think that the House will feel that a Motion of this kind is reasonable. But I beg that it may be fully understood that I am not at present too sanguine in expressing any confident hope that these proceedings may be likely to be the beginning of a long-continued consideration of parts of the question of Reform other than the Franchise Bill. If that were done, I fully admit it would be quite impossible for us to ask the House to pass over the whole Business of the House, as is implied in this Motion. I hope that these intimations may be considered satisfactory. The subject is one which 991 we should desire to have considered in an impartial spirit, and entirely with a view to the convenience of the House.

§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That the several stages of any Bill relating to the Representation of the People have precedence of all Orders of the Day, except any further proceedings on the Address, and Notices of Motions, on every day for which they may be set down by the Government."—(Mr. Gladstone.)

§ SIR JOHN HAY
, who had on the Notice Paper the following Amendment:—Line 2, after "precedence," insert "except on Wednesdays," said, that he had to ask the House kindly to consider his Amendment in the light of the statement which had just been made by the Prime Minister, and with reference to the Motion itself. On that day week it had been his good fortune to be able to set down for discussion a Bill for the Redistribution of Seats—a Bill of the nature and character for the consideration of which Parliament had been assembled at that time of the year. He might state that the Wednesday Sittings were usually devoted to private Members' Bills, and discussions took place upon them without a Division being necessarily taken. On account of the early closing Rule, Business of an urgent nature was not usually set down for discussion, because it might lead to no practical result. The Bill in which he was interested, and which stood for that day week, was on a subject which related to the representation of the people, for the consideration of which Parliament had been assembled, and he would have been glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that they could have had an opportunity of having a discussion upon the Bill on a Wednesday afternoon, without giving the House the trouble of going to a Division on the question. It was a fair question—the redistribution of seats—to introduce to the House; it was a question which intererested the country generally, and was one which he hoped the House would give him an opportunity of discussing at the right time. Under these circumstances, he felt himself compelled to move his Amendment.

§ MR. STORER
, in seconding the Amendment, said, that having on the Paper a Bill in which great interest was felt in the country, he thought it' was hardly fair that the Government should monopolize the whole time of the House. 992 They were brought together in the autumn, at great inconvenience to themselves; and it was but reasonable that one day in the week, at least, should be set aside for the consideration of those matters in which the people took a deep interest. The country, from one end to the other, was sensible of the necessity of something being done with reference to the present state of trade and agriculture. He assured the Prime Minister that, though he might think there was only one subject which was agitating the country, amongst the classes whom he (Mr. Storer) was well acquainted, and who were supposed to be most benefited by the passing of the measure, there was not the slightest feeling on the question. Those classes, however, did consider it of the greatest importance that questions which greatly affected their social welfare should be occasionally discussed in the House. They were, for instance, deeply interested in the questions relating to trade and agriculture, which were in a fearful state, and those questions would be shelved, and hon. Members would have no opportunity of bringing them before the House, if the Motion of the Prime Minister should be agreed to.

§ Amendment proposed, after the word "precedence," to insert the words "except on Wednesdays."—(Admiral Sir John Say.)

§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE
I quite understand that there is great force in the arguments of my right hon. and gallant Friend behind me (Sir John Hay), that the Government should not ask the House for the whole of its time; but I am bound to say that I do not think that Wednesday is, of all others, the day which should be considered as a private Members' day. Friday has much more of that character, having always been the day on which questions might be raised on going into Committee of Supply. At the same time, I quite recognize the desire of the Government—and I think, also, it will be for the convenience of the House—that we should proceed rapidly with the Franchise Bill. But if we pass the Resolution in the form which the Prime Minister now proposes, it may give the Government unlimited power over the 993 Business of the House, and for a very considerable time. Assuming—I only take it as a possibility—that the House should not be prorogued, but should adjourn before Christmas, and should proceed with Business again in February, this Resolution standing before us would give the Government power with regard to any Bill relating to the Representation of the People—

MR. GLADSTONE
Sir, will you allow me? I feel the force of that objection. The Motion has been drawn with the object of meeting the exigencies of a particular time; and I should not in the least oppose the insertion of a limitation of the time of its operation—say "before Christmas." That, indeed, would be the best way.

§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE
I was going myself to suggest that there should be a limitation of time; but when the right hon. Gentleman says "before Christmas," he is still making a large demand. We must consider that there are matters of great importance which the House may very reasonably desire to discuss; and if the Government should obtain priority up to Christmas there will be no opportunity of bringing forward these subjects. I must point out to the right hon. Gentleman and others who complain of the amount of time spent in discussing the Address, that many things have been brought forward on the Address because there would have been no other opportunity; and the best way to obviate such a difficulty is to treat the House with reasonable indulgence and fairness, and to give us opportunities of bringing forward questions of importance. I do not know whether there is any truth in the report which I heard yesterday; but I was told that, with regard to the question of the Royal Commission on Merchant Shipping, it was likely there would be a debate. I see the subject stands for discussion on the Report of the Address. If the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman passes, hon. Members anxious to raise a debate on the composition of the Commission will be obliged to do so on the Report of the Address, or abandon the hope of having such an opportunity before Christmas, without the consent of the Government. I suggest, therefore, that the priority asked for should be given for a fortnight.

994

MR. GLADSTONE
Say a month; the end of November.

§ SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE
That I consider a fair compromise. I fully admit with my right hon. and gallant Friend that the question is one of importance; but, under the circumstances, I hope he will not proceed with his Amendment.

§ SIR JOHN HAY
I propose to withdraw it.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Amendment proposed, after the word "precedence," to insert the words "during the month of November."—(Mr. Gladstone.)

§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

§ MR. STORER
expressed a hope that the Prime Minister would afford hon. Members, whose Notices of Motion were shelved by this Resolution, an early opportunity of discussing the various questions to which they related.

§ SIR JOHN HAY
I understand that the right hon. Gentleman would state to-day on what day the promised statement would be made with regard to the Navy.

MR. GLADSTONE
No; I said I could not be in a condition to make any arrangement until we saw our way through the stages of the Franchise Bill.

LORD HENRY LENNOX
said, he was thankful to see that the attention of the Government had at last been awakened with respect to the condition of the first arm of our defence. The Prime Minister would, perhaps, pardon him for touching upon the matter, as there was a very strong feeling in the country at the present moment that something should be done, and done at once, to put their Navy and their coaling stations into a proper state of defence. He trusted that, under these circumstances, the Government would not allow the matter to pass from their minds, or to be entirely swamped and swallowed up by the discussions on the Franchise Bill. It was true that when the subject was last discussed on the Navy Estimates there were only nine Members present. That, however, was all changed now. Many journals of great importance had taken up the matter very warmly, and only last night he had noted the 995 conversion of the hon. Members for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) and Perthshire (Sir Donald Currie). That had been very gratifying to him, as it showed that the efforts he had made for the last seven or eight years were at last beginning to bear fruit in the House of Commons.

§ Question put, and agreed to.

§ MR. WARTON
moved the following Amendment to the Motion:— Line 3, after "Motions," insert "except Notices of Motion relating to schemes under the provisions of 'The Endowed Schools Act, 1869,' and amending Acts. The hon. and learned Gentleman pointed out that this question was one of great general interest, and had found supporters in the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Buchanan) and the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Jesse Collings), with whom he rarely agreed on any subject. The Charity Commissioners often acted in a most arbitrary manner; and although their proposed schemes were laid upon the Table of the House, very great delay occurred in printing them, and, as no formal Notice of them was given in the House, it was only by great trouble and diligence that bon. Members were enabled to ascertain their existence at all. These schemes were often of a very arbitrary character, and quite opposed to the intention of the founder; and therefore he trusted the Prime Minister would give him some facilities for noticing them as they were framed.

§ Amendment proposed, After the word "Motions," to insert the words "except Notices of Motion relating to schemes under the provisions of 'The Endowed Schools Act, 1869,' and amending Acts."—(Mr. Warton.)

§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. GLADSTONE
, in reply, said, the request of the hon. and learned Member would break up the regularity of their proceedings. But the fact was, there would be no impediment whatever, if he wished to bring forward Motions on the subject to which he alluded, to his doing so on any day he pleased.

MR. J. LOWTHER
After 3 o'clock in the morning?

MR. GLADSTONE
said, he did not think they were likely to adopt a rule to sit until 3 o'clock in the morning on 996 the Franchise Bill. What he mean was that as the Half-past 12 Rule did not apply to Motions of this kind, the hon. and learned Gentleman would have the opportunity of bringing them forward. Almost everything that came before the House was of importance, including the subject of patent medicines; and he did not think they should make a special rule with respect to Motions, which could be discussed on any night in the week.

MR. J. LOWTHER
said, he was glad to hear the comforting assurance that their labours were not likely to be protracted until the small hours of the morning. He should like that some steps should be taken, either by a short unopposed Act or some measure, to prevent those who were interested in schemes of the kind alluded to by his hon. and learned Friend being prejudiced by the concession of time which the House was now invited to give to the Government; beeause he thought the Prime Minister would admit that the end of a long day's Sitting was hardly a legitimate opportunity of discussion under the Rules of the House. He was in hopes that the right hon. Gentleman would avail himself of this opportunity to state what was the intention of the draughtsman of his Motion in inserting the words—"any Bill for the Representation of the People." The right hon. Gentleman, in his observations that day, only dealt with one Bill.

§ Question put, and negatived.

§ Main Question, as amended, put.

§ Ordered, That the several stages of any Bill relating to the Representation of the People have precedence, during the month of November, of all Orders of the Day, except any further proceedings on the Address, and Notices of Motions, on every day on which they may be set down by the Government.