§ (In the Committee.)
§
(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £57,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Divine Service, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1885.
§ COLONEL COLTHURSTwished to call attention to the inadequate arrangements for providing Roman Catholic priests on board the troopships proceeding annually to India between the months of September and April, some of which 1333 troopships brought home invalids. An arrangement had been entered into by the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War that a Roman Catholic priest should accompany every detachment of troops exceeding 300 in number. The arrangement, however, had not been found to work satisfactorily. It was manifest that a vessel leaving this country with 300 Roman Catholics on board might come back from India without any invalids at all; whereas another vessel leaving the country with only 50 or 100 might have to bring home invalids. He wished, therefore, to place before the noble Marquess, whose anxiety to settle the question he felt bound to bear testimony to, two alternative suggestions. One was, that the number of Roman Catholic chaplains should be increased by two or three, which would enable the service to be duly performed. If the noble Marquess did not think that it would be possible to increase the number of commissioned chaplains by two or three, he would ask him to consent to a priest going out on each voyage. And for this reason—it would be much easier for the ecclesiastical authorities to provide a priest for each voyage between September and April, than only when the number of Roman Catholic soldiers sent out amounted to 300, because, with the utmost goodwill on the part of the authorities at the Horse Guards, it was impossible to make up the details until within a week or 10 days of the time the vessel started; and it was then frequently found impossible to provide, even with the best intentions, the services of a clergyman at a few days' notice. He would ask the noble Marquess to give a definite answer now, because the Army Estimates had come on much sooner than was expected, and the noble Marquess had not received the Notices which those interested in this question intended to give him. All he asked the noble Marquess to do now was to admit the necessity of changing the present arrangements, and to promise to consider the two suggestions he had ventured to make.
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, that, before the noble Marquess answered the question of his hon. and gallant Friend, he wished to put another question to him. When the Army Estimates were last taken, and the noble Marquess made his Statement, he 1334 distinctly stated that the House should have before Whitsuntide an opportunity of discussing it. It would now appear that the noble Marquess wished to take the Votes one after another without previously taking a discussion upon the Statement which he had made. He ventured to say that that would be a most inconvenient course as far as the Committee were concerned. They had certainly a right to expect, after what the noble Marquess had stated—in point of fact, after the distinct pledge and promise he had given—that the earliest opportunity for criticizing the noble Marquess's Statement would be afforded. If they were to proceed with the Votes in regular order, this general discussion could not be taken until they reached Vote 8, and there was no certainty as to when that Vote would be reached. He understood the object of the promise of the noble Marquess to be that, at the commencement of a Sitting like this, an opportunity should be given for going carefully into the consideration of the present state of the Army.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he was very sorry if there had been any misunderstanding upon the subject. He did not remember that any promise was made, except that an opportunity for discussion would be given before Whitsuntide; and he did not remember promising that the discussion should be given either upon Vote 8 or upon any other Vote. In fact, when the question was put to him the other day by an hon. Member, he had stated that he thought the most convenient course would be to proceed as usual, and take the Votes in their regular order. If, however, it was desired, as he thought it probably might be the case, to raise a general discussion on the state of the Army upon the recruiting question, it might be taken upon Vote 8 referred to by the hon. and gallant Member as the most convenient opportunity for doing so. If there was a desire on the part of the Committee to take that course, he would be quite ready to postpone Vote 8, in order that it might be taken as the first Vote on the next occasion the Army Estimates were reached. If necessary, the Army Estimates might be taken again shortly after Whitsuntide, and Vote 8 taken first.
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, that in answer to what the noble 1335 Marquess had just stated, lie fancied that his right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Lancashire (Colonel Stanley) did make a statement of his wish to discuss the state of the Army, and asked when they were to have the Army Estimates gone into again. His right hon. and gallant Friend moved to report Progress, so that they might have some statement from the noble Marquess; because it was fully admitted that, a general Statement having been made by the noble Marquess, it was most inconvenient that the Committee should not have an opportunity of discussing it. He thought they were entitled to have the question discussed at the earliest possible period that night, and that it would be most objectionable to follow the course which was taken last year, and put it off until a late period of the Session, when they might have again to sit into Sunday and consider the Army Estimates at a period when it was altogether impossible to discuss the grave questions raised in them. The noble Marquess must be aware that the House had always treated these Army questions in a fair and impartial spirit, and had not converted them into Party questions. Certainly they had a right to have the question of the condition of the Army fairly raised; and he thought that it would be better to take Vote 8 at once, rather than to adopt the other alternative of getting as much money as was possible that night, and then put off the discussion of Vote 8 until a late and inconvenient period of the Session.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, that what occurred when the Army Estimates were introduced might be impressed upon the memory of the noble Marquess if he were to read what took place upon that occasion, and especially the remarks of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLrose to Order. He wished to know if the hon. and gallant Member would be in Order in reading extracts from a past debate in the present Session?
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, the statement he was about to refer to formed part of the same debate now before the Committee.
THE CHAIRMANI understand that the hon. and gallant Member is about to refer to a promise made by the Govern- 1336 ment, and he will be in Order in doing so.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, the promise made was this—the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he hoped the question of Army organization would be discussed on the second Vote, as it had been in previous years. The noble Marquess followed, and said, with great clearness, that the first Vote was merely to be granted to the Government as a Vote on Account, and that the general discussion would be postponed until another occasion. The noble Marquess added that last Session, at all events, the House had nothing to complain of, but had a full opportunity for discussing the Estimates. He (Sir Alexander Gordon) thought that statement clearly showed that it was the intention of the noble Marquess to have the general discussion taken on the next occasion.
SIR HENRY FLETCHERsaid, he thought it was very desirable, if possible, to get on quickly with the Army Estimates that night, in order to reach the discussion upon the general organization of the Army, which, as it had been fairly put before the Committee by the noble Marquess, might be taken on Vote 8. The consideration of Vote 4 would probably take some time, seeing that it had reference to the Medical Department. Votes 3 and 4 would not require much discussion. They would pass then to Vote 5, which was for Militia Pay and Allowances; Vote 6 was for the Yeomanry Cavalry, and Vote 7 was the Volunteer Vote, upon which there was likely to be some discussion. If the noble Marquess would give an undertaking that he would go on with the Votes in their regular order until a certain hour, and then proceed with the discussion on Vote 8, he (Sir Henry Fletcher) thought that side of the House would be quite satisfied. It was most desirable that the discussion should take place that night, and that it should not be deferred until the month of July or August. He put this as a suggestion that unless the Vote were postponed until a very late hour of the night a general discussion should be taken upon it.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he should have no objection to arrange, as far as it was in his power, that Vote 8, dealing with the Army Reserve, should come on that night at a reasonable 1337 hour. He did not think, as far as he could see, that there was any intervening Vote which was likely to occupy much time in discussion. The first Vote was that for Divine Service, which was now under consideration; the next had reference to Martial Law; and the third bore upon the Medical Service. He did not think that these Votes would take up much time; and he was quite willing, as far as he was concerned, to postpone the Militia, the Yeomanry, and the Volunteer Votes in order to take Vote 8, dealing with the Army Reserve at an hour that would enable a general discussion to be raised. No doubt there were hon. Gentlemen present who were interested in the Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteer discussions; and he would appeal to them, if they had come down prepared to take the discussion of those Votes that night, to assist him in postponing the consideration of them until the next occasion when the Army Estimates were reached.
EARL PERCYconfessed that he was placed in a position of difficulty. It was certainly understood, as had been mentioned by the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot), that they were to have a general discussion on the Estimates that evening on some Vote which would enable it to be reached; but when he asked the noble Marquess privately what course he proposed to take, because he had been under the impression that a sort of undertaking had been given, the noble Marquess told him he intended to take the Votes seriatim. He should like to propose to the noble Marquess that he might take the Militia and Volunteer Votes, and omit the Medical Vote. He did not know that there were any hon. Members who were anxious to have the Medical Vote that evening; and he certainly thought the course he suggested—namely, of taking the Militia and Volunteer Votes, would be most conducive to the general convenience of the Committee.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he did not think the Medical Vote was likely to occupy a long time in discussion. He hoped the Committee would agree to the suggestion he had made. He thought it would be better for the Committee to accept that proposal, and thus avoid any further misunderstanding on the subject.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he did not think it would be possible to postpone a Vote when they were in the middle of the discussion of it.
§ MAJOR GENERAL ALEXANDERsaid, he was of opinion that if the noble Marquess could not agree with the proposal of the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) it would be much better to go on with the Votes in their regular order. It would be most objectionable to follow the course which was taken, last year. He had no doubt the noble Marquess intended to bring on the Army Estimates again soon after Whitsuntide if he could; but it was a matter in which the noble Marquess had no power whatever. He would remind the noble Marquess of what occurred last year. The Army Estimates were not brought on for discussion until Saturday the 18th of August. The House met on that day at 12 o'clock. The Army Estimates were not reached until a late hour, and they were not finished at 2 o'clock on Sunday morning. The result was that in the end, on his (Major General Alexander's) proposal, Supply was granted to Her Majesty without any adequate discussion of the Votes whatever, on the understanding that a discussion should be taken on the Report. Under these circumstances, he strongly deprecated any similar course being pursued on the present occasion. He hoped, if the noble Marquess could not agree to the proposal of the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for West Sussex, that they would be allowed to take the Votes in their regular order.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONremarked, that there were other discussions last year upon the Army Estimates than that which was referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Ayrshire (Major General Alexander). Full opportunity for discussion was given at an early period of the Session.
§ MAJOR GENERAL ALEXANDERsaid, that 19 Votes were passed on Saturday night and Sunday morning.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, that certainly upon some of the Votes a full opportunity for a general discussion was given at a reasonable 1339 period of the Session. He understood that the hon. and gallant Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) would be satisfied to take the general discussion that evening after reasonable progress had been made with the Votes in their regular order.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, he should like to ask the opinion of the Chair as to how far a general discussion of the Army Estimates could be raised on a single Vote—Vote 8—after previous Votes had been passed? Would hon. Members be permitted to discuss the whole subject of Army organization upon that Vote? It certainly seemed to him that, after the Committee had voted the money required for the Militia and Volunteers, it would be open to any hon. Member to rise to Order, and question the propriety of discussing those branches of the Service on any subsequent Vote. He thought there ought to be no misunderstanding upon that point.
COLONEL STANLEYsaid, that reference had been made to what he had said the other night. He quite agreed with what had been stated by his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ayrshire (Major General Alexander), that there would be a certain amount of inconvenience in postponing the consideration of important questions for an indefinite period. He also agreed with the remarks of the hon. Member for Wigtonshire (Sir Herbert Maxwell), that it would be inconvenient to raise a discussion upon questions relating to particular Services after the Votes for those Services had been passed. It was in consequence of that feeling that he had moved to report Progress on the last occasion; and he did so as a protest against the doctrine that having once passed a certain stage they could go back exactly to the same position they were in before. They could only, after a certain amount of inconvenience, discuss all the general questions connected with the organization and state of the Army upon the Vote for the Reserves; but he would point out that the Reserve Vote did contain in itself a reference to almost every subject connected with the state of the Array. Of course, the other Votes could be dealt with within due limits. He, therefore, thought that the proposal of the noble Marquess was a fair one—namely, that they should go 1340 forward with the Votes in their regular order until they reached the Militia Vote, and then go on with Vote 8. Of course, it would be impossible to please everyone; but, in taking the Votes consecutively up to a certain point, there would be a certain amount of give-and-take on the part of the Government which he regarded as satisfactory.
THE CHAIRMANIn answer to the question put to me by the hen. Baronet the Member for Wigtonshire (Sir Herbert Maxwell), I think that Vote 10 would have been the Vote upon which the general question could have been most legitimately raised. But the Committee will bear in mind that the general question was raised last year upon Vote 8; and I am not prepared to say that it was not open to the Committee to take that course. I, therefore, fortified by the custom that has prevailed, do not think that on the present occasion hon. Members would be precluded on Vote 8 from entering into a general discussion.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, his experience induced him to believe that there was nothing which led to so much loss of time as a departure from well-recognized rules. These understandings and multiplied understandings, generally ending in a misunderstanding, occupied a considerable portion of the time of the House in every Session; and he was very much disposed to urge on the Committee the desirability of going on with the Votes in the order in which they appeared in the Estimates. If the Committee decided upon taking them in the order in which they appeared, and wished to select one for a general discussion, it seemed to him that they ought to select Vote 16, which referred to the payment of the salaries and miscellaneous charges in the War Office; and upon that Vote for the Office of the Secretary of State for War every question of policy connected with the Army might be legitimately raised. He wished to ask the Chairman if he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) would be in Order in moving the reduction of a certain sum by which he had wished to reduce the Estimates on the last occasion? It would be in the recollection of the Committee that, practically, the first Vote in the Army Estimates was passed without the Committee having any option in the matter. He was told upon that occasion, both by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the 1341 noble Marquess, that, whatever he might have to say, that Vote must be passed, and the consequence was that the discussion was greatly curtailed. He had wished to move the reduction of the Vote by some thousands of pounds on account of an item which seemed to him to be absolutely unnecessary—he alluded to the item for the Riding Establishment at Woolwich. The noble Marquess said that his attention had not been called to the matter, and that he was not in a position to offer any opinion upon it. He promised, however, to look into the subject. He (Mr. A. O'Connor) wanted to know whether the noble Marquess had found time since to inquire into the advisability of continuing that Establishment?
THE CHAIRMANI must point out that that is not a question of Order. There is no Question now before the Committee in regard to the Riding Establishment at Woolwich.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, he had only been desirous of eliciting that answer from the Chairman, because it enabled him now to adduce a direct illustration of the unsatisfactory manner in which the Estimates were discussed. The noble Marquess suggested that he should move the reduction upon Vote 2, which had reference to the provision for Divine Service. [The Marquess of HARTINGTON dissented.] The noble Marquess shook his head; but he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) only wished to point out the utter incongruity of moving the reduction of a Vote for the Riding Establishment at Woolwich on a Vote which was to cover the provision for Divine Service. He wished, further, to point out that it would be futile to discuss that question upon Vote 8; and it therefore appeared to him, from the way in which the Votes were to be taken, that it would be altogether precluded from raising that question, because the Effective Vote had already been passed, and they were now on the Vote for Divine Service; and it was irregular to raise a discussion upon any branch of the Service covered by a Vote already agreed to. Under these circumstances, he hoped the Government would resolve not to have any more of these understandings and departures from their well-recognized rules; and he would urge the desirability of going through the Votes in a regular and straightforward manner.
§ MR. RYLANDSappealed to the Committee that it would be a great saving of time, and also a most convenient course, if they adopted the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, and carried out the views of the noble Marquess, by proceeding with the Votes in their regular order. After they had gone through several Votes they would be in a position to ascertain whether sufficient time was left for a general discussion or not; and an arrangement might then be made, if it was necessary, for having the general discussion upon some future occasion. His own impression was, that the best course would be to go on steadily with the Votes, on the understanding that the general discussion would take place at an early period, either on Vote 8, as suggested by the Government, or on Vote 10, as suggested by the Chairman.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILwished to point out that the Committee were wasting valuable time in a desultory discussion. They had already wasted 20 minutes. The noble Marquess had shown his readiness to meet the views of the Committee; and he thought the proposal which the noble Marquess had made found favour on both sides of the House. If they would take that course they would prevent not only a further waste of public time, but also a waste of public money. If they at once proceeded to Business, and went on with the Votes, they would probably reach Vote 8 in sufficient time to have the general discussion.
§ MR. CAUSTONsaid, he was anxious to proceed to Business; but he thought there ought to be an understanding that hon. Members who wished to raise a discussion on Vote 1 should have an opportunity of doing so. Under the present regulations the Staff clerks considered that they were suffering under a grievance, and he had undertaken to bring their case before the House. He had been under the impression that upon Vote 1 they would have had a general discussion upon all Army matters; and before they proceeded to Business that evening he hoped there would be a definite promise from the noble Marquess that hon. Members would have a full opportunity of bringing the grievances they complained of, in connection with the Army, under the consideration of the Committee.
EARL PERCYsaid, he would mate a suggestion, which he thought would meet the wishes of the Committee, or, at any rate, of hon. Members sitting on that side of the House, who were anxious to take the Militia Vote that night. He would suggest—and he hoped it would meet the views of the noble Marquess—that they should proceed with Votes 2, 3, and 4, and if they were concluded before 9 o'clock that they should then take Vote 5; but if they were not concluded before 9 o'clock, that then they should omit the other Votes and go on with Vote 8.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, he had come there for the purpose of considering every Army matter, including the Militia; and he, therefore, thought they ought to go straight forward with the Votes after they had taken the discussion which it was promised they should have upon Vote 2. That was, undoubtedly, the impression produced by the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Army Estimates were introduced. Now, looking at Vote 1, he found that the general Staff of the Army in 1872 cost the country £83,000 odd. It now cost the country £173,000, or double the amount within 11 years. He wished to have that matter fully explained to the Committee; and it was certainly impossible to obtain the explanation he derived upon the Vote for Divine Service, or upon any Vote except Vote 1. If he were to attempt to raise it on any other Vote, he would inevitably find himself stopped by the Chairman, and he would only be placed in a ridiculous position. If the Government could not show him a reason for the large increase in certain items, then, he contended, the Vote ought to be reduced; but to raise the important questions he wished to raise on any Vote except Vote 1 would necessarily, as he had stated, place him in a ridiculous position.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLremarked, that, in accordance with the ruling of the Chair, as to the propriety of raising the discussion upon the whole organization of the Army upon Vote 8, he wanted to know, on the same principle, why it could not be raised upon any other Vote—2, 3, or 4, for instance; and, if so, why not take it at once?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he had simply proposed to follow the course which had been taken on other occasions—namely, to dispose of the Vote for Divine Service, and similar Votes of minor importance, in order to raise the general question more properly upon Vote 8. He believed that all the questions affecting Army organization bearing upon the condition of the Army could be legitimately raised on Vote 8. There were, however, a certain number of minor questions referred to in the previous Votes which he did not suppose could be properly brought forward on Vote 8; but they might all of them be conveniently dealt with on the Vote for the administration of the Army. He thought there were very few questions of administration which the Committee would not be able to deal with upon that Vote. He would, therefore, adhere to the suggestion he had made in the first instance.
THE CHAIRMANPerhaps the Committee will allow me to call their attention to what has occurred. A promise has been made that the general discussion should take place on Vote 8, which has to come on upon a future occasion. Under those circumstances, I do not think I should be acting unfairly to the Committee if I now say that the time has arrived for stopping the discussion, which is certainly not strictly in Order. As has been pointed out, Votes 8 and 10 are Votes which embrace the general policy of the organization and administration of the Army, and almost every question connected with the state of the Army can be raised upon them. The Question now before the Committee is Vote 2—
That a sum, not exceeding £57,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Divine Service, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1885.After what has been stated by the noble Marquess, I will again point out to the Committee that upon Vote 8 or Vote 10 it will be possible to enter into any question relating to the administration of the Army; but it will not be regular to enter into a discussion of any of the items included in Vote 1, and already passed. the conversation which has been proceeding for some time past has certainly not been directed to the Question before the Committee.
§ DR. FARQUHARSONwished to point out that last year no proper opportunity was afforded for discussing the Medical Vote, on which Vote many important questions had now to be decided—questions affecting the entire organization of the Army Medical Department. If they were now going to enter upon Vote 8, that important question would be still further delayed.
§ DR. FARQUHARSONsaid, he was glad to hear that announcement, and he hoped Her Majesty's Government would adhere to it.
THE CHAIRMANI have already pointed out to the Committee that the Question before the Committee is Vote 2, and I am not quite sure that the discussion which has taken place is not altogether irregular. I must now call upon hon. Members to confine themselves to the Vote for Divine Service in connection with the Army, which is the Question now before the Committee.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, he thought the most regular course would be to proceed at once with Vote 2. He would, therefore, move the reduction of the Vote of which he had given Notice—namely, that it be reduced by the sum of £4,103, made up as follows:—On account of troops stationed at Halifax, £838; ditto, in Jamaica, £509; ditto, in Windward and Leeward Islands, £642; ditto, in Cape Colony and Natal, £1,515; ditto, in Ceylon, £599.
§ MR. CAUSTONrose to Order. His hon. Friend was, no doubt, anxious to proceed with the Business of the Committee; but he (Mr. Causton) wished clearly to understand what the arrangement that had been made was. Was it to be understood that after certain Votes had been passed the general discussion which had been alluded to would be allowed to take place?
§ MR. CAUSTONI think before the Amendment is moved to the Vote by my hon. Friend there should be a clear understanding with the noble Marquess.
THE CHAIRMANThat is not a point of Order, and I must call upon the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy to proceed.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, if seemed to him that his hon. Friend was wholly out of Order; and if he desired to raise any question in reference to the Staff clerks he should have raised it on Vote 1. He (Sir George Campbell) took the opportunity, on Vote 2, which related to the Colonies, of raising the question of the tyranny exercised by the Colonies over the Mother Country in regard to fiscal matters. What had happened was this. We had really surrendered all our powers over the greater Colonies; and, whereas it was formerly said we tyrannized over the Colonies, the Colonies now tyrannized over us in the matter of military expenditure. Our Colonies paid nothing whatever for their naval protection, which was the great protection we gave to our Possessions beyond the seas. And as regards military expenditure, what we found was this—that wherever the British Colonists prevailed, and not dark races, the Colony paid nothing at all, or very little indeed. It seemed to him to be very hard that we should employ our Army and Navy in protecting the Colonies without the Colonies contributing one farthing to the expense incurred. At the present moment, almost the entire charge of several of these was paid by the taxpayers of this country without the smallest contribution from the Colonies. Why should we have a great Naval Station at Halifax, except that Canada was supposed to be a British Possession? No doubt, the military force stationed there was a small one; but its presence involved a certain risk. Why should the country bear the whole cost of the defence of the Island of Jamaica, or of the Windward or Leeward Islands? No one could say that those Possessions were of any great advantage to this country. Again, we retained the nucleus of a garrison at Cape Town, and a considerable force at Natal, and the consequence was that we were involved in nearly all the wars with the Natives. It was in that way that we found ourselves mixed up with the Transkei War, and we were obliged to send troops there at very great expense. Natal was the worst case of all. That Colony was strongly in favour of war, and the Colonists were continually urging upon us to make war on their behalf. We had, therefore, found it necessary to maintain a con- 1347 siderable military force in the Colony, which had cost us £250,000 per annum in quiet times, besides other expenses. But what was the contribution of the Colony towards our military expenditure? With a Revenue which amounted to £800,000 a-year, and which was constantly growing at our expense, the contribution of the Colony towards our military expenditure amounted to the paltry sum of £4,000, or not one-half per cent of the Revenue. Ceylon was the last Colony he would refer to. That was differently situated. There was a tax upon the food of the Natives there, and the Colony had hitherto paid the whole expense of the troops stationed there. The Colony was not very prosperous at this moment; but it was practically protected by the Indian Army in its immediate neighbourhood, and it required but a very small force in the Colony itself for its protection. Yet it was treated very differently from India. India had always been obliged to pay the uttermost farthing of its own military expense. In the case of Ceylon, having regard to the fact that it was not very prosperous at this moment, Her Majesty's Government had consented to remit about £20,000 of the charge which had hitherto been paid by Ceylon. The result was, that whereas in India one-third of the effective Revenue of the Empire was spent in its defence, and the Natives were charged at the rate of one rupee per head, in Ceylon only one-tenth of the Revenue was paid for defence, and the population only paid one-third of a rupee per head, or one-third of the amount that fell upon the poor Natives of India. And Her Majesty's Government were now remitting a portion of that payment. It was quite evident that Her Majesty's Government, in these arrangements, were not dealing equally with India and the Colonies. The present Vote was for Divine Service, and he confessed that he had not intended to go into that question beyond the general considerations he had mentioned; but, in regard to the Colony of Ceylon, there was one point touching the question of Divine Service to which he should like to allude. Bishops were generally good men, but some of those sent to the Colonies were "apt to play pranks before high Heaven," of which Her Majesty's Government did not approve; and, no doubt, although they 1348 had not always the courage or opportunity of doing so, Her Majesty's Government would like to bring about a change of arrangements. At one time the Colonial Office certainly did bring the Bishop of Ceylon to his bearings. He had abused his franking privileges, and they were taken away from him. Yet, he (Sir George Campbell) found, in the present year, while the Colony of Ceylon was not able to pay the chaplains furnished for Divine Service for the troops and came to this country for payment, they had repaid to the Bishop the equivalent of the sum we had taken away from him by the withdrawal of his privilege of franking. In moving the reduction of this Vote by the sum of £4,103, he desired only to express in general terms to the House the opinion that Her Majesty's Government should take care in future that more equal justice was done between the Colonies and the taxpayers of the Mother Country. Having said so much, he hoped it would not be necessary for him to intrude upon the Committee again that evening.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLYes; by the sum of £4,103.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £53,397, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Divine Service, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1885."—(Sir George Campbell.)
§ MR. EVELYN ASHLEYdesired to say a few words in reference to the Motion which had been made by his hon. Friend. It had struck him, in listening to the speech, that the sting of it was in the tail. His hon. Friend was concerned less because the Colonies were paying too little than be cause India was paying too much. He (Mr. Evelyn Ashley) did not intend to enter into the question whether India was paying too much or not; his business would be to address himself, as shortly as he could, to the remarks in regard to the payment by the Colonies. First of all, he would remind his hon. Friend, in reference to the large self-governed Colonies, that the Government of this country would not like, and would not think it right, even if it were possible, to obtain contributions from their Legislatures to- 1349 wards the cost of the Imperial troops that were stationed within their borders for Imperial purposes; because, if that were done, the Colonies would claim the right to employ those troops, and might interfere and try to influence our policy. Therefore, as far as the self-governed Colonies were concerned, it was not right to call upon them to contribute towards the payment of the Imperial troops. In the next place, when the hon. Member talked about contributing towards the defence of the United Empire, to a large extent Canada and the Cape, as also the Australias, did contribute already. They voted large sums of money for their own defence in maintaining local troops. He would run briefly through the instances which had been put down by his hon. Friend in his indictment. The first case was that of Halifax. Halifax was an Imperial station for our Navy; and, although the hon. Member seemed to think that Canada was in a position to defend herself, he would remind the hon. Member that the Naval Station at Halifax was useful for more than local defence, and that it was used for many other purposes beyond that of a mere local station. Therefore, there was no reason why we should expect a contribution in respect of it from the Colony. It was necessary that we should deal with each Colony by itself; and, in the first instance, we must consider its history before, we laid down any rule as to what contributions we ought to expect, because existing arrangements were, in some instances, explained by historical transactions. No doubt, there were some cases in which certain Colonies might be called upon to contribute more than they did. That he did not deny. But let them look at the history of Jamaica and the Windward Islands. He did not deny that the terms upon which the Imperial troops were maintained in those Colonies were a very liberal arrangement for the Colonies themselves. We contributed not only to the defence of those Colonies, but towards their civil establishments. That practice ought not to be continued. We paid the entire cost of the military establishments out there, and other things of that kind. It was impossible to say, at this moment, what change ought to be brought about; but he would remind the hon. Member that the arrangement with Jamaica dated from 1350 the time of the emancipation of the slaves. Although changing circumstances might justify the revision, of the arrangement in some cases, we could not break through the pledge which had been given on special grounds. An immense deal had been done, of late years, in the way of reducing our Colonial military expenditure, and there was no reason why something further should not be done. With regard to the Cape Colony, he would simply say this—that the Imperial forces now maintained in that Colony were entirely for Imperial purposes, and it was only a very few years ago that the barracks occupied by Imperial troops for Imperial purposes were handed over to the local Government. As for Natal, he was of opinion that in that case a larger contribution ought to be paid. He fully admitted that; but, at the same time, he would point out to his hon. Friend and the Committee that we had given Natal representative institutions, and we could not in a high-handed manner force the Colony to vote more money for our troops. Of course, it might be said that we had the remedy in our own hands, and that we could withdraw our troops; but as long as the Zulu border presented such dangers and difficulties, we could not hold a pistol to the head of Natal, and say—"If you do not do what we think you ought to do our troops shall be withdrawn." The financial arrangement under which Imperial troops were employed there was entered into in 1860—a good many years ago. The hon. Member said that Natal ought to contribute more. He (Mr. Evelyn Ashley) was of the same opinion; but he did not think it was to be done in the offhand way pointed out. He came, lastly, to the Colony of Ceylon. Up to the present time that Colony had paid every farthing of the expenditure for Imperial purposes, and we had recognized their present position by not asking them this year to continue to pay upon the same scale. His hon. Friend quite agreed that Ceylon had hitherto paid its full share; and he did not know why his hon. Friend should have dragged Ceylon in, except in reference to India, with which he (Mr. Evelyn Ashley) had nothing whatever to do. He thought he might say that, with 1351 the exception of Natal, there was a good answer in every case.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, he had no desire to impede the progress of Business; but, on the contrary, he was anxious that it should be proceeded with as fast as possible. Nevertheless, he had risen to move that the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. The Chairman had already reproved the preliminary conversation which the Committee indulged in before entering into the present Vote, on the ground that it was irregular. He (Sir Herbert Maxwell) was sorry that it had been thought necessary to do so; because, at the time the conversation was stopped, the Committee were left in a state of absurd mist and uncertainty as to the order of Business that evening. The noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War had undoubtedly showed great anxiety to meet the views of all sides of the House; and this Motion to report Progress was made in order to give the noble Marquess an opportunity of explaining to the Committee, decidedly and clearly, what Votes were to be taken that night, and in what order.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Sir Herbert Maxwell.)
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked if the noble Marquess would explain, at the same time, how the questions connected with the Army Pay Department and the continuation of the Riding Establishment at Woolwich stood?
§ COLONEL WALRONDsaid, there was a very important Vote—Vote 7—which he hoped would be taken that evening. Last year it was not taken until the middle of August, at a period of the year which was much too late to allow many officers to be present. He hoped that Vote 7 would be taken that night, and that it would be taken in the order in which it stood in the Estimates.
SIR HENRY FLETCHERsaid, he hoped the Committee would be able to agree with the suggestion of the noble Marquess, and would go straight on with the Votes. ["No, no!"] He had understood the noble Marquess to say that the best course would be to go on regularly with the Votes. Vote 7, which had been alluded to by his hon. and 1352 gallant Friend, was a very important one, and it would be highly unsatisfactory to have it delayed as it was last year.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, the explanation the hon. and gallant Member had attributed to him was not the explanation he had himself given. The suggestion he had made, and which he understood to be generally accepted, was that the Militia and Volunteer Votes should be postponed until after they had disposed of Vote 8, and that the general discussion should be brought on upon Vote 8. If there were any objection to that course, it would be better, he thought, to go straight on with the Votes, and, if necessary, to postpone Vote 8 until a future period. He did not know whether it would be in Order to refer to the question which had been put to him by the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. A. O'Connor) as to the Hiding School at Woolwich, to which reference was made in Vote 1. That was a question that had not yet been fully considered; it was still under consideration. With regard to the question of the Army Pay Department, that was a matter which the hon. Gentleman might raise on the Vote for the administration of the War Office.
§ VISCOUNT LEWISHAMsaid, he had certainly understood the noble Marquess to state that he intended to take the Votes in the order in which they stood. He should like to know if it was really intended to pursue that course? He had come down for the purpose of considering Vote 7; but if it was not to be taken that night, he should certainly go home to dinner.
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, that his object had not been to detain the Committee, or to prevent them from going on with the consideration of the Votes. All he desired was that they should have a reasonable time for the discussion of the great question of Army Organization. He did not make any objection to the statement which the noble Marquess had made. He was perfectly satisfied with it; and all he desired was that the Committee should have some reasonable time for the discussion of Vote 8.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, that, with the leave of the House, he would withdraw his Motion.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
1353§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, he would also ask leave to withdraw his Motion. He only wished to say that he thought his hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies had misunderstood his object. His object had certainly not been to protest against India being required to pay the whole of the Imperial expenditure in connection with that country. He did not think that one Possession should be differently treated from any other Possession; and he certainly did not see why Ceylon, being practically a part of India, should not pay her fair proportion of the expenditure in the same way as the inhabitants of India did. So far as Natal was concerned, if the giving of representative institutions to a small minority of the population of a Colony—much less than one-tenth—was to have the effect of allowing them to tyrannize over the Mother Country, and refuse to pay their fair share of the military expenditure which Her Majesty' s Government thought they ought to pay, he certainly thought this country ought to object in future to confer representative institutions upon such Colonies. So far as Halifax was concerned, he hoped we should soon be able to withdraw from it altogether. He begged to withdraw the Motion he had made for the reduction of the Vote.
§ MR. RYLANDSwished to say a word before the Amendment was withdrawn. He thought his hon. Friend had taken a most singular course. He had, upon a small Vote, availed himself of the opportunity of raising a most important question; a question which he (Mr. Rylands) had intended to raise, if he could have obtained an opportunity, on Vote 1; a question not merely confined to the payment of £4,000 for the clergy connected with another Establishment in the Colonies, but an expenditure of more than £2,000,000 a-year on account of Colonial Services generally. The manner in which the question had been introduced by his hon. Friend might induce people out-of-doors to suppose that it was one of small moment; whereas it was really one of very great moment. He ventured to submit to the Government that when they came into power in 1880 the policy which they then laid down was one based upon the principle of economy. He had understood that they intended, as far as possible, to keep down the expenditure for Colonial Services, especially in regard to the employ- 1354 ment of Imperial troops. We were now paying an enormous sum for military establishments in the Colonies. The total this year amounted to £1,750,000, and that was by no means the full extent of our expenditure. This sum of £1,750,000 only appeared under certain heads; but there were very heavy items not included in the expenditure given in the Return which he held in his hand. For instance, there was nothing included in regard to the Non-Effective Services. The Committee were fully aware that the Estimates were materially swelled in consequence of the services rendered by our Army in defence of our Colonies.
THE CHAIRMANI must point out to the hon. Member that he is altogether exceeding the limits of this Vote by going into questions of our Colonial policy generally. The Question before the Committee is the Vote for Divine Service, and the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) has proposed to withdraw an Amendment he has moved for the diminution of that Vote. The present Question is that the Amendment, by leave, be withdrawn.
§ MR. RYLANDSsaid, he had understood, from the manner in which the question had been raised by his hon. Friend, and also from the reply of the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, that the Chairman would have allowed a little latitude in raising the question of Imperial contributions in. aid of Colonial expenditure. At the same time, there were other Votes upon which this principle might be introduced again. It would have been most properly discussed under Vote 1; and he had thought that it might be for the convenience of the Committee if the matter were discussed now. Still, at the same time, he was bound to say that it ought to be discussed on grounds much wider than the mere payment of £4,000 to the chaplains, and he should be glad if some opportunity could be afforded to the Committee for dealing more generally with this expenditure.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILsaid, he would suggest to the hon. Member that if he brought forward this question on Vote 13, where there was a considerable charge for expenditure on fortifications and on other matters connected with the Colonies, he would, no doubt, be perfectly in Order.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORrose to Order. He wished to know whether it 1355 would be competent to hon. Members to discuss at a future time upon another Vote details of items in a previous Votes?
THE CHAIRMANsaid, it would be his duty to decide questions of Order of the kind proposed by the hon. Member when they arose.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Question again proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £53,397, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Divine Service, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1885.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he desired to reply to the question put to him by the hon. and gallant Member for the County of Cork (Colonel Colthurst) with regard to the employment of Roman Catholic chaplains on board transports carrying troops between this country and India. The hon. and gallant Gentleman would be aware that efforts had been made to satisfy reasonable demands in this matter. Two years ago, an arrangement was entered into between the War Office, the Admiralty, and the India Office, that in all cases in which more than 300 Roman Catholic soldiers were on board a transport a Roman Catholic priest should be employed at a remuneration to be settled between the parties. That was the endeavour they wished to see carried out; but he was bound to say that the arrangement had not been found to give full satisfaction. In the first place, it was not very frequently the ease that so large a number of Roman Catholics as 300 were embarked in one transport; and, in the next place, although the matter was conducted with the assistance of the Roman Catholic Bishop of Southwark, it was not always possible to secure the services of priests. All he could say was that he would enter further into communication on this subject with the India Office, with whom it more particularly rested, because it was upon them that the expense would chiefly fall. He believed the hon. and gallant Member would see that what they had already done had been in the direction of meeting the wishes of Roman Catholics on this subject. If the Departments could see their way, improvements should be suggested. The suggestion had boon made that Roman Catholic priests should be placed on the establishment for the purpose; but that 1356 would involve considerable expense, nor was that the only difficulty. He would, however, communicate with the Admiralty and India Office on the subject, and he should be glad if they would meet the object of his hon. and gallant Friend.
§ COLONEL COLTHURSTsaid, he desired to do full justice to the efforts of the noble Marquess; but he wished to point out that it would be impossible, under the present system, to insure what was asked for—namely, that Roman Catholic invalids coming from India should have the ministration of priests of their Church. He saw that six vessels from India had brought home Roman Catholic invalids; and it would have been necessary in that case that at least on six voyages priests should have been sent. If the Bishop of Southwark knew that he had to supply priests on every occasion, he would, no doubt, be able to do so. He attached no blame to the War Office in this matter, and was quite satisfied to leave it in the hands of the noble Marquess, with the hope that he would be able to carry out the suggestion that at least on the return voyages the services of Roman Catholic priests might be available for invalids.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, he rose to call attention to what Irish Members looked upon as a grievance—namely, the absence of suitable provision for supplying religious ministration to the Militia at Carrickfergus. It seemed to him that the War Office treated the members of the Roman Catholic Church in that district in the most improper manner. Carrickfergus was a town of 10,000 inhabitants, only a limited proportion of whom were Roman Catholics. There was only one priest there, who had to officiate at two services on Sunday, and also to attend at the chapels in the adjacent rural districts for the same purpose. There was, therefore, no Roman Catholic ministration for the men who were locked up in barracks on Sundays to keep them out of mischief. He was disposed to think that even from the point of view of expediency that Roman Catholic chaplains should be attached to each Militia regiment when in training. The Government would say they gave 12s. a-week to provide a chaplain for 1357 the regiment at Carrickfergus, the calculation being that the chaplain who performed the service, and who came from some distance, should get one day's pay at a rate nearly as low as the pay of a fourth-class chaplain, which was 10s. 6d. a-day. There were not sufficient priests at Carrickfergus to meet the demands of the district; and how the noble Marquess could ask priests to come there from the South of Ireland for one day a-week at the lowest rate paid to any priest in the Service, he was at a loss to understand. Priests could, of course, be obtained if they were properly remunerated. The condition of things at Carrickfergus was different from that in other districts of Ireland. As he had already said, there should be a special chaplain for each Militia regiment, an arrangement which would be good from the point of view of economy, because the Militia, who were generally enlisted from the most disreputable class in the country, would be more under restraint, and behave themselves better than they did at present. He did not know what answer the noble Marquess would make to this; but certainly, taking all conditions into account, a more mean mode of saving money could not be imagined than the present arrangement. In order to give Irish Members an opportunity of expressing their views upon this subject, he would move the reduction of the Vote.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £57,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Divine Service, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1885."—(Mr. Biggar.)
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, that in the case referred to by the hon. Member for Cavan, the War Office had acted strictly in accordance with the Regulations; he might say that perhaps they had gone somewhat beyond them. The hon. Member said it would be proper to give a larger rate of remuneration to the priest at Carrickfergus; but he must be aware that that could not be done without extending the remuneration in ordinary cases. They had no power to alter the Regulations to meet a particular case. The usual rate of payment was one guinea where the number of men was 200, and 10s. 6d. where it was under 200.
§ MR. SEXTONsaid, he hoped that some modifications of the Regulations 1358 would take place. The noble Marquess thought this case of Carrickfergus was not exceptional; but he wished to impress upon him that it was really unique. The peculiarity of the case as regarded Carrickfergus was that the parish church was so small that it would only hold 230 persons, and the consequence was that the soldiers of the Line and the civil population filled it to the doors; there was no room for the Militia, and the Roman Catholic priest had to perform Divine Service at a country church miles away. It was sad to think that a priest should be expected to perform the duties of his office for a sum of money weekly, which, in a period of three months, would amount to only £10. He was sure there must be at the War Office an account for Sundries, as there was in other Departments, out of which a fitting remuneration could be given to a priest for the performance of Divine Service for the Militia at Carrickfergus; and he could not believe that it was out of the power of the noble Marquess to meet the necessities of the case. He thought the noble Marquess might say he would consider how the difficulty in his way might be overcome. It was impossible for the local priest to perform the service, because he had to attend elsewhere. The money provided by the Government was insufficient for the purpose intended; and all he and his hon. Friends asked was that the clergyman who should come from another place might be indemnified. He was bound to say that the beggarly treatment which the War Office extended to the Militia in the matter of Divine Service very ill accorded with the remarks of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Colthurst), to the effect that the noble Marquess was attentive to the requirements of Roman Catholics. This paltry and beggarly method of treating men in the Service of the Queen tended neither to the credit of the Department over which the noble Marquess presided nor to the welfare of the Militia.
§ SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAsaid, the noble Marquess appeared to think that, if he made any exceptional arrangement with regard to the chaplain at Carrickfergus, it would oblige him to make similar arrangements in the case of other chaplains. But he was unable to see the cogency of that proposition. The 1359 case of Carrickfergus was in this matter peculiar and exceptional; and all that he and his hon. Friends asked of the noble Marquess was that the special circumstances should be taken into consideration within a short space of time by the War Office, and if they called for special treatment, that, without insisting upon an alteration of the Regulations, some remedy should be found for the admitted evils in this case. These services in Ireland were by no moans amply provided for; the scale of allowances was extremely moderate; and here was an instance in which the Catholic community of the place were obliged to trust to the ministration of one priest. The Government of the country choosing to increase the population during a period of two months by sending 200 or 300 Militiamen into the district, he could not understand why Her Majesty's Government thought it right to reply upon this question to Irish Members in the way they had, for they sought for no general alteration, they wanted nothing more than that which would indemnify the parish priest for the expenses if he provided this ministration; and because they asked under the circumstances described they were told that their request could not be granted, because it would render necessary similar alterations elsewhere. He trusted, however, that some words might come from the Treasury Bench which would assure them that the matter should be taken into consideration.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, he would submit one consideration to the noble Marquess that might have escaped him. He presumed the noble Marquess was aware that it was incumbent upon all Roman Catholics to attend the celebration of Mass on Sundays. If by enlistment into a Militia regiment a man debarred himself from performing his religious duties, he was, by that very enlistment, committing an offence; and it was the duty of everyone who knew that enlistment in a Militia regiment involved the failure of attending Mass on Sunday to tell the recruit that he ought not so to enlist. That was the duty, not only of the parish priest, but of every man acquainted with the individual. Under those circumstances, it appeared to him that the noble Marquess, by meeting this question with a simple non possumus, was throwing a 1360 very important difficulty in the way of recruiting for the Militia regiment at Carrickfergus.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he did not know whether the circumstances detailed by the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had been brought to the notice of the War Office. He believed they had; but he would undertake to look into the matter again. If he could find in the case any circumstances which could be regarded as exceptional, and if it were not necessary to make any alteration in the Regulations, he would see what could be done. However, he believed the subject had been under consideration more than once.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, he thought the noble Marquess should say something more definite on this subject. As had been pointed out by his hon. Friend the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton), the church at Carrickfergus would only contain the local population and the soldiers permanently located in the town. The noble Marquess entirely ignored the fact that there were other duties which devolved on a priest besides the duty of performing Divine Service on Sunday. A priest should be always at hand in case of sickness. He appealed to the noble Marquess to give a more explicit promise than he had given, such as that, he believed, on the merits of this case, something should be done. He thought the noble Marquess might state so much as his own personal opinion. There were other places in Ireland where the same difficulty presented itself, but in a less degree; and he knew of no place where it was felt so much as at Carrickfergus. There was a Roman Catholic population in Armagh; but in Carrickfergus there was no Roman Catholic population, and if the priest there was unable to spare time to perform the service he could not afford to employ a curate for the work. His contention was, that if a priest came from a distance he should be paid so much as would compensate him, not extravagantly, but reasonably, for his time and expense in ministering to the Militia at Carrickfergus.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONI have said I would look into the matter again, and that if it were possible the case should be met, if it could be done without alteration of the Regulations.
§ MR. W. REDMONDsaid, unless some definite promise were given, he believed the answer of the noble Marquess would be taken by the people of Ireland, and particularly by those chiefly interested in the matter, as most unsatisfactory. The hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had stated certain exceptional circumstances in connection with the religious services at Carrickfergus, and the noble Marquess merely said he would make further inquiries with regard to the case in Ireland. It seemed to him that this way of treating the Representatives of Ireland in this House was anything but satisfactory, and highly calculated to inspire the people with discontent. The hon. Member for Sligo had stated, from his own knowledge, that there were exceptional circumstances surrounding this case which rendered it absolutely necessary that the clergyman going to Carrickfergus to perform Divine Service for the soldiers should be remunerated in an exceptional manner; and instead of taking the statements of the hon. Member as final and correct, they only had it from the noble Marquess that further inquiries should be made. Now, if the noble Marquess made further inquiries in Ireland, he hoped he would not inquire of the officials at the Castle in Dublin, who did not possess the confidence of the people. He thought it only reasonable for Irish Members to expect that their representations should be taken as correct by the occupants of the Treasury Bench. He did not think it was at all fair, or calculated to promote harmony of feeling in that House, that the representations of the Members for Ireland on matters like this should be disregarded; that they should be told that they were not sufficient, and that the noble Marquess would make inquiries of the officials at Dublin Castle. The hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) had pointed out clearly, not only that the allowance made by Her Majesty's Government for the purpose of Divine Service on Sundays was insufficient, but that it was likewise insufficient for the other duties which a Roman Catholic minister had to perform. Where there was a large number of men, it was only reasonable to expect that the ministration of the priest who went on Sunday to say Mass at Carrickfergus would be required in other cases, and on other days. Would the noble 1362 Marquess say that the priest should be remunerated for those services? At present they had only an undertaking that the priest should be remunerated for going on Sunday to say Mass. As the case stood at present, only a paltry allowance was given, and the other great services of the priest were ignored. Unless some definite promise on this point were given, it would be regarded throughout Ireland as most unsatisfactory.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, it was, perhaps, hardly fair to expect the noble Marquess to go further than he felt himself at liberty to go at that moment. The noble Marquess had said that the remarks of the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had thrown new light upon this question, and that he was prepared to reconsider it. He (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) should not be disposed to press the noble Marquess any further; but he would ask whether he would consent to postpone the Report of the Vote until the War Office decision had been arrived at and communicated to Irish Members? If so, he would be willing to assent to the withdrawal of the Motion for the reduction of the Vote.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he should be glad to agree to the suggestion of the hon. Member who had just sat down, if it were in his power to do so. He was, however, afraid the matter was one which would take some time. The Vote was, as the hon. Member observed, a small one; but the official communications on the subject would pass through several hands. He would see if the Report of the Vote could be postponed; and, if not, he would answer the question on some other occasion.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, he thought the chaplin might be remunerated by a yearly salary, instead of being paid so much for performing one service. In the hope that the noble Marquess would be able before the Report to give a satisfactory answer to his appeal, he would ask leave to withdraw his Motion.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ (2.) £36,800, Administration of Military Law.
§ GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURsaid, he had last year asked a Question with regard to the condition of the Army in respect of crime and courts martial, 1363 and he should be glad of any further information which the Judge Advocate General could give the Committee upon that subject.
§ THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)said, that, as he had anticipated last year, the year 1883 had shown, an improvement in respect of Crime in the Army as compared with 1882. He was happy to say that the preliminary Return which had just been published fully bore out that expectation. The Return, as he had said, was but preliminary, and related only to the Home Army; the other Return would not be published for two months. He thought the proper course would be to compare the crimes stated in that Return with the crimes in the Home Army during the year 1882, and in so comparing them it would be found that there had been a distinct improvement during the year 1883. He should mention that the number of troops constituting the Home Army in 1883 was less than in 1882. In round numbers, there were in 1882, 90,000 men; whereas in 1883 the Home Army consisted of 86,000 men. Making allowance for the diminution of numbers, he was able to say that the year 1883 compared favourably with 1882; and with the permission of the Committee he would give some figures relating to those two years. In 1882 the number of courts martial in the Home Army was 8,472; in 1883 it was 7,526. The sentences passed in the Home Army were in 1882, 8,382, as against 7,392 in 1883. With regard to offences, he found that in 1882 there were 12,144; but in 1883 they only amounted to 10,703; while under every one of the 13 heads under which crimes in the Army were classed, except two, there was a diminution. There was a very remarkable diminution of crimes relating to enlistment, those in 1882 numbering 883, while in 1883 there were only 602. Another satisfactory decrease appeared in the number of offences arising out of drunkenness; the number of charges of drunkenness on duty which in 1882 numbered 982, was in 1883, 733. He might add that the number of men in the Home Army fined for drunkenness was at the rate of 150 per 1,000 in 1882, and it was satisfactory to observe that the rate had fallen in 1883 to 102 per 1,000. Notwithstanding that this Return was con- 1364 fined to the Home Army, he believed he should not be wrong in stating that as regards the Army abroad the same improvement would be found to have taken place. In Egypt the conduct of the Army had been especially good; during this year the number of courts martial held there was 90, there being only one general and 89 district courts martial.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILsaid, that the Returns quoted by the Judge Advocate General showed an undoubted decrease in the number of crimes, so far as the Forces at home were concerned; but he must express his regret that, although those Returns were tolerably full, they were not made a little fuller. he thought those very interesting figures which the right hon. and learned Gentleman had given the Committee, both as to last year and the present, might have been put into two columns in the Returns, because there was this disadvantage in the way they were presented—that although they could see very well what had happened in 1883, they could not see what had happened in 1882. They had, therefore, no means of comparing the two years with each other, and of seeing if there had been any improvement last year, or otherwise. He suggested that, when the Returns were brought up again, the figures relating to the previous year and the present year should be given in two columns.
§ THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)The noble Lord will find that is done in the Returns of 1882.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILsaid, that was, no doubt, the case in one sense; but it would be much more convenient, and of greater use, if it were given on the same page, as was the case with the ordinary Estimates, in which one could see at a glance any increase or decrease of the items. He did not doubt the accuracy of the statement of the Judge Advocate General with regard to the conduct of the Army, and the decrease in the number of courts martial; but he observed a large item under the term Miscellaneous. In the Cavalry and Line, for instance, the total number of courts martial was 685; 239, or more than one-third of these, being returned for miscellaneous offences alone. What those miscellaneous offences were was not stated; and, therefore, he thought it would be of great advantage to the 1365 Committee that some information should be forthcoming: on that point. He believed that a Member of the Committee last year drew attention to the same fact. The view he took was that as so much information was given in the Returns, the Committee might as well have a little more; and he quite agreed with his hon. and gallant Friend opposite (Sir George Balfour) that it was a good thing to give the Judge Advocate General an opportunity of making a further explanation. It was always satisfactory to hear anything good of the state of the Army; but, of course, it was much more so at the present time. When they had Forces abroad, as was the case now in Egypt, and when little expeditions were being sent into the interior of Africa, it would be well if there were some means of knowing how the men had conducted themselves under those circumstances. He did not understand from the Judge Advocate General, who stated that this Return applied only to the Home Service, that the men were really quartered in the United Kingdom. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman had a private Return, he should very much like it to be made public.
§ THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)It is only a partial Return.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILQuite so. He was only suggesting that, having so many troops just now in Egypt, and having sent little expeditions into the Soudan, it would be for the benefit of the Army itself, and for the convenience of the House, if a separate Return was given of the number of courts martial and crimes connected with the Expeditionary Forces, from which they might arrive at a conclusion, which he doubted not would be satisfactory, as to the way in which the men had conducted themselves. He asked this especially, because, during the last three years, as the Committee would be aware, changes had been made in the character of punishments in the Army. Corporal punishment had been abolished, and they knew that the late Secretary of State for War—the present Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Childers)—had created, or rather recommended, other punishments. He recollected the right hon. Gentleman mentioning a number of punishments which were not exactly approved either on that side of the House or the other—such as tying the 1366 men to trees, throwing pails of water over them, and so forth. There was nothing to show whether men had been sentenced to those punishments, either by commanding officers or by courts martial; and, therefore, it was desirable to know how far they had tended to the reduction or prevention of crime. Of course, they had been informed that the punishments were experimental; but if it were proved on trial that they were such as could not be inflicted in a practical way, he thought it would be well to admit the fact at once, so as to save further time, and let the House know the position in which they stood. Hon. Gentlemen on the Benches around him had always said that corporal punishment was a disagreeable necessity; and, at the same time, they believed there was nothing between it and the punishment of death. Of course, if it were proved that corporal punishment could be done away with altogether, without detriment to the discipline of the Army, he thought it was certainly a matter worth stating, and none would be more rejoiced at it than Gentlemen on those Benches. At the same time, they ought to have some statistics to show how far the punishment substituted had succeeded, or otherwise. With these few remarks he would conclude, as he began, by expressing his satisfaction at hearing that the state of the Army at home was so good; and he trusted that on another occasion they should be allowed to know a little more as to the state of the Army abroad.
§ GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURsaid, he thought the Committee and the country would be satisfied with the information obtained from the Judge Advocate General with regard to the diminution in the number of courts martial and in the crimes and punishments in the Home Army. The minor courts martial might appear to be numerous; but hon. Members would be aware that the offences tried by such courts martial were not of great importance. The general courts martial were of more importance; and he thought that a Return showing more fully the number abroad would be exceedingly valuable to the officers of the Army. On the whole, he regarded the explanations as satisfactory.
§ MAJOR GENERAL ALEXANDERsaid, he had just one remark to make with reference to an article in The Times on the subject of courts martial. The article, 1367 commenting on the number of courts martial in the Infantry, said it was very hard that good regiments should be confounded with bad; and it was added that this would always be the case, because Her Majesty's Government refused to grant the Returns of the number of courts martial for each regiment. Now, he hoped Her Majesty's Government would continue to refuse such a Return, because he was sure it would be injurious and pernicious to the best interests of the Service. The effect of it would be to induce commanding officers to settle themselves questions that ought to be brought under the cognizance of courts martial. Those who, so to speak, were behind the scenes well knew that there were many ways of doing this; by taking crimes out of one category and placing them in another. Take the crime of insubordination, for instance. A commanding officer and his adjutant would lay their heads together, and, not wishing a court martial for insubordination to appear in the Return, they would agree to try the accused for using improper language instead of threatening language; the matter would then be settled by the commanding officer, who would sentence the individual to seven days' cell. That was an improper way of dealing with offences of the kind; but it was one which would be resorted to if the Returns, suggested in the article in The Times, were given by Her Majesty's Government. No doubt, courts martial were, to a certain extent, a criterion of the state of a regiment; but that was a matter to be settled by a confidential official Report, and not by the general public. He said that the Return would have the effect of deterring officers from doing their duty, and he trusted that Her Majesty's Government would resolutely refuse it.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONassured the Committee that oven the Returns which were now furnished, and which only went to the Horse Guards, were a great inducement to commanding officers to enter under one head crimes that ought to be placed under another. He had frequently drawn the attention of commanding officers to this. These were purely confidential Returns, which ought to go to the Commander-in-Chief, or to the Secretary of State for War alone, and he hoped the Government would not agree to furnish them.
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, he had a question to ask with regard to the reduction to a lower grade of noncommissioned officers. Would the Judge Advocate General state how that matter stood as compared with last year? The number of reductions seemed to be very large; and he would like to know what were the crimes committed by the men who had been reduced? He did not coincide with all that had been said by his hon. and gallant Friend, but would not go further into that matter then. He simply asked his right hon. and learned Friend to give some information on the subject he had referred to. Then there was another point to which he had called attention on a former occasion. It related to the question of pensions in the case of non-commissioned officers who were reduced. He asked whether a non-commissioned officer, who had always done his duty and worked well for a number of years, and was then reduced for a small offence, would be allowed to remain on to complete his time, though reduced to the ranks, so as to earn a pension? Because it seemed to him a very hard thing that a man should, under the circumstances, lose his pension after having served almost all his time. He commended this matter to the noble Marquess as one deserving his serious attention.
§ THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)said, he would take a note of the various suggestions made by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Eustace Cecil). With regard to the statement of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major General Alexander), he did not find, as a general rule, that crimes in the Army were leniently dealt with by commanding officers. The hon. and gallant Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) had remarked that the number of reductions in 1883 was very considerable; but he would point out that the reduction was not always to the ranks—it was generally from the grade of colour sergeant to that of sergeant or lance corporal. The number of reductions, however, had fallen off considerably; they amounted in 1883 to l,183, and in 1882 to 1,290, the improvement being 12 per cent. With regard to corporal punishment, he could, of course, only state the results since its abolition, and those from the figures he 1369 had laid before the Committee were satisfactory.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, the reply of the Judge Advocate General only confirmed the statement that commanding officers were sometimes induced to deal with crimes in the Army in the manner described. The essence of the contention was that the crimes did not come forward under their correct headings, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman could not, therefore, be cognizant of their real character; he had no possible means of judging. The only persons acquainted with the facts were the officers on the Staff. The Judge Advocate General must take the cases as they came before him.
§ THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)I beg pardon; I see the whole of the evidence. I read it in all cases of court martial, to ascertain whether the crime charged against the individual is adapted to the actual offence committed.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, the Judge Advocate General expressed exactly what he had intended to convey. There were a vast number of men who were never brought to trial at all. The right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke of courts martial. The cases he (Sir Alexander Gordon) referred to were kept back from trial, in order that they might be excluded from the Return of the more serious offences.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (3.) £303,000, Medical Establishment and Services.
§ MR. GUY DAWNAYsaid, that he must apologize, as a civilian, for trespassing on the attention of the House in regard to a military subject; but he might say in excuse that he had had the working of the Medical Service in the field forced upon his notice on one or two occasions, and he had done all that lay in his power to promote inquiry into that subject, so far as it was connected with the Egyptian Campaign. He thought it a matter for regret that they had not had a discussion on the Report of Lord Morley's Committee last year, when the circumstances were fresh in mind. For his own part, he had done everything he could to obtain it, having tried throughout last Session, though in vain, to bring forward a Motion on the subject, while the discussion on the Vote 1370 itself was put off until a ridiculously late time in the Session—a Saturday Sitting at the latter end of August. He was glad that so early an opportunity of discussing the question had presented itself this year; and he wished now to refer to a few facts connected with the inquiry into the working of the Army Hospital Service; and, in the second place, to call attention to the inefficiency and non-economy of the present Unification or Departmental system, under which the medical officers of the Army were at present appointed. He did not think there could be any difference of opinion at all as to the general value of the inquiry which took place last year; and he was sure that, whenever another campaign was forced upon the country, the sick and wounded would owe no small debt of gratitude to the Committee over which Lord Morley presided, as well as to the outcry that called forth that Committee, if only the authorities would give effect to its recommendations; and it was to be hoped that when they received the details of the Suakin Campaign, they would find that already a good effect had been produced. No one on that Committee would deny that the evidence adduced showed an ample case for a searching inquiry into the organization of the Army Hospital Service, and the breakdown alleged to have taken place in the Egyptian Campaign. The most had been made of one or two exaggerated and unfounded statements which had found their way into the public Press; but, with those statements eliminated, the fact remained, upheld by the testimony of everyone connected with the Service—by officers and men alike—indirectly even by the medical officers themselves—by the nurses whose devotion was as usual the brightest spot in the Hospital history—supported also by the valuable testimony of Lord Wolseley—that owing to the inherent defects in the system of organization—the glaring defects in the method of selecting and training the Army Hospital Corps—and owing to the unwillingness of the medical authorities to assume proper authority and responsibility, a very considerable amount of needless suffering had been inflicted on our soldiers, and a large amount of wasted expenditure upon the nation. Some references had been made to alleged inconsistencies between Lord Wolseley's evidence before 1371 the Committee and the Report made by him during the campaign. He would express his satisfaction that Lord Wolseley had been able to corroborate with the great weight of his authority the evidence of those who served under him in the campaign; and he would point out that it was sufficiently clear that Lord Wolseley was prepared to pass over, without blame to the Department, any failures that could possibly be attributed to the sudden strain upon their resources at Ismailia; that he was satisfied, and justly satisfied, with their performance at Tel-el-Kebir; but that, with all his readiness to make allowance for the Department, and his appreciation of individual energy, he could not tolerate and pass over that Departmental apathy and want of organizing power which was forced upon his notice by the want of arrangements for the comfort of the sick and wounded in Cairo. It would be a very invidious task to attempt to apportion any blame to individuals; but he would like briefly to bear his testimony to the unflagging energy with which the surgeons at the front did their duty. It had been clearly acknowledged in the Report itself that, as regarded the administrative medical officers at Cairo and Ismailia, there was a lack of initiative and energetic supervision; but for the medical officers at the front there had been nothing but praise and commendations; indeed, he might say, in truth, there had been nothing but praise and commendation—for out of all the Orders and Decorations showered abroad in connection with the campaign, none had reached any one of those who bore the burden and heat of the day. He had come in contact more especially with the surgeons of the Life Guards and Blues and Foot Guards; and he could state that nothing could have exceeded the zealous and kindly care which they manifested throughout a campaign in which the numbers of sick, if not of wounded, certainly taxed their energies very severely. The want had been, not of professional care, but of Departmental organization. Attempts had been made to rebut this charge by pointing to the small death-rate in Egypt. No doubt, the death-rate was satisfactory; but the question still remained, did there, or did there not, exist a distinct amount of preventable suffering, and a distinct absence of procurable comfort? 1372 He was afraid that everyone who read the evidence contained in the Blue Book impartially must come to the conclusion that the question on both points could only be answered in the affirmative. The country was ready to pay any sum which might be demanded to lessen the sufferings of the troops; and he could not understand how it was that, with a harbour for a base, containing the finest fleet of transports ever collected for the conveyance of stores and troops, with the exceptional advantage of a commodious building ready for immediate use as a hospital, on the 10th day after landing, sick men were obliged to lie on bare boards instead of the palliasses, which were an essential part of ordinary field hospital equipment. It was in evidence also, and he would like to hear it explained, why, on board first-class transports, convalescents, to whom good food meant recovery and meant life, should have been kept so hungry that they had to beg bits of biscuit from the sailors? Neither could he understand why the bread, which was refused by commanders of regiments at Ismailia, should have been accepted and served out by the medical officers in the hospital after only verbal remonstrances. Officers in command of regiments at Ismailia not only condemned and refused the Commissariat bread, but forced the Commissariat officer to replace it with locally purchased bread; while in the far more important case of the sick and wounded in the hospital, the medical officers contented themselves with simple remonstrances and protests, and then served out to the wounded men in their charge this atrocious compound of unwholesome flour and indifferent water. There was a worse case still. It could not be understood why, on the very day that 400 wounded men came down from Tel-el-Kebir to Ismailia, three days after the fight, it was so arranged that two field hospitals were ordered up from Ismailia to the front, thereby denuding the hospitals at the base of their proper attendants, and rendering it necessary to supply their places with men taken from one of the regiments stationed there. He asked the Committee to picture the scene which was described by Miss Lloyd, in the Blue Book—the 400 wounded soldiers lying at Ismailia all night in their helplessness and pain, without any orderlies to attend to them, or, if order- 1373 lies were forthcoming, finding themselves not only at the mercy of men utterly ignorant and untrained as nurses, but brutally drunk in the bargain. Could the authorities excuse, or could the country permit, an organization which allowed such a disgraceful scene as that in the Ismailia hospital on the night in question? It had been said that a great part of the complaints made of the hospital treatment came from officers. As a matter of fact, he knew there were several officers who could have given very valuable evidence in condemnation of the Medical Department in the Egyptian Campaign; but they refused to volunteer their evidence, because they feared it might be said they were grumblers. That might be a feeling worthy of respect; but he would assert that no officer had come forward to give evidence, or would have wished to have done so, except on the far higher and more worthy grounds of the fulfilment of a public duty in exposing the faults and errors of the present system. Again, the men themselves were afraid to find fault, or to come before Lord Morley's Committee and give evidence. He hoped hon. Members would give him credit for not trying to make a long Blue Book speech. But, if he had thought it necessary, he could have corroborated by quotation from the Blue Book every point he had raised. Although during the consideration of the Army Estimates the attendance was not large, all who were present were acquainted with the subject; and he thought they would agree with him when he said there was ample evidence of the fact that the men themselves were afraid to give evidence. As to the only other means of information—the doctors—the doctors, of course, considered that the inquiry was a direct attack upon themselves. One of them said the cooking was "fairly good." Lord Wolseley said, "I have never seen such bad cooking." And another surgeon said he was "fairly satisfied with his orderlies." He thought that that gentleman's evidence would have little weight with those who had studied the rest of the evidence. Good could not fail to come of the inquiry with regard to hospital orderlies. They would learn discipline instead of drill; they would get some proper hard training; and he hoped that in the future there would be fewer cases of hospital orderlies stealing the medical comforts, 1374 and giving pills and applying mustard plaisters to the wrong patients, and still fewer cases of them using bad language and throats to the wounded and helpless soldiers. The recommendations of Lord Morley's Committee on these points were very valuable, as were also the recommendations with respect to field panniers; the abolition of the foolish rule under which, in non-dieted hospitals, a patient was subject to 24 hours' starvation; the provision for the proper cooking instruction of the Army Hospital Corps; and last, but by no means least, the recommendation as to the more general and recognized employment of nursing sisters. There was one recommendation, however, which seemed so entirely opposed to all the evidence which was given before the Committee, that one was astounded to find it included in the Report at all, and sanctioned by the signatures of any of the Committee—he meant the recommendation that the Army should not be allowed to return, as would have been expected from the evidence, to a modified form of the regimental system; but that the Medical Service of the Household Troops should be assimilated to that of the rest of the Army. Two Members of the Committee had dissented from that view; and he could not understand how any body of individuals could make such a recommendation after hearing the evidence. Without exception, every commanding officer who was examined before the Committee, besides the Duke of Cambridge, Lord Wolseley, and Sir Daniel Lysons, had condemned the present system, and advocated a return to a modified form of the regimental system—a system that should attach surgeons to regiments for periods, say, of five years. They had pointed out, in the clearest and most convincing manner, the disadvantage of a system which entailed constant changes of medical officers; the constant ignorance as to who was temporarily in charge of the men as medical officer. They had dwelt upon the waste of force that must necessarily ensue from this planetary system of medical supervision; they had dwelt upon the very great dislike which was entertained, both by the men and the married women, for these constant changes; and yet, in spite of this overwhelming testimony, in spite of the fact that the best medical officers themselves 1375 detested the shuttle-cock principle on which they were treated; in spite of this mass of evidence, the Committee arrived at a conclusion which was not only discreditable to their own common sense, but which was equally opposed to the best interests and wishes of the Army. If any hon. Member had not studied the question he (Mr. Guy Dawnay) asked him to refer to the evidence, given in the Index, under the head of "Regimental Medical System," and especially to the evidence of Colonel Nicholls, of the 3rd Battalion of the Rifle Brigade. Colonel Nicholls related how, in 14 months, at the Curragh his regiment had been under the charge of 13 different medical officers, and also referred to the case of a man. in the Rifle Brigade who, one cold morning, two years ago, when the regiment was starting for a march out, was sent by his colonel to hospital at Aldershot suffering from severe bronchitis. The man was at once sent back, as a malingerer. The commanding officer then sent him to his hut; and when the battalion returned from its march, the poor fellow, who but a few hours before had been turned away from the hospital as a shammer and malignerer, was found dead. The case against the present system was ably and clearly stated in the Appendix to the Report, which contained the dissent of Major General Hawley and Colonel Loyd Lindsay to the recommendations of the Committee. Those gallant officers said—
With reference to the above important question (namely, the distribution of medical officers), we are of opinion that the inconvenience to the Service (which the Report admits to be justly complained of in the Army) is due to defects inherent in the unification system itself, and not to faulty working of details which might he remedied. The two systems under which the Army Medical Service can he worked—namely, the unification and the regimental systems—are distinct both in principle and in practice. Under the first—namely, the unification system—the medical officers form a separate professional department. This system proceeds on the principle of detaching them from regiments, and from the duties that would there devolve upon them, and of attaching them to station hospitals. If medical officers were to drop the military character which has always attached to them, this system might be made to work fairly well in time of peace; but without great alteration in detail it could not be carried out efficiently in time of war …. Under the second—namely, the regimental system—medical officers are attached to regiments, the sanitation of which they have in charge, 1376 under the commanding officers, together with medical attendance on the wives and families of men belonging to the regiment. This is the system which officers in the Army, from the Commander-in-Chief downwards, are unanimously in favour of. Every branch of the Service—Engineers, Artillery, Cavalry, and Line—have given evidence in favour of it before this Committee; and the General Officer commanding at Aldershot has also, in his evidence, advocated the advantage of it. It is the system adopted in every Continental Army without exception; and it is the system to which our own Army reverts in time of war, when a medical officer is attached to every regiment proceeding on active service …. The system at present in force (and which the Army regards with so much objection) is a compromise. It wavers from side to side, inclining to a civil organization in time of peace, and to a regimental system in time of war—thereby necessitating a sudden change of system and of organization at the very moment when smooth working (which can only be attained by practice and experience) is of vital importance to the efficiency of the Medical Service during a campaign. For these reasons, we recommend a return to the regimental system, so far as it attaches a medical officer to each unit of the Service.That was very strong testimony; but he thought the matter was still more clearly stated in the Table of the comparative advantages and disadvantages of a return to the regimental system. Anyone who read that Table must see that the advantages of a return to the regimental system far outweighed the possible disadvantages. Now, what were the objections to a return to a modified form of the regimental system? In the first place, it was said—It is undesirable to introduce changes until the present system had had a fair trial.The present system had had a long trial, and in the opinion of all military men it had completely broken down. Secondly, it was said that—It would create considerable, though perhaps not insuperable, difficulties in the arrangement of the roster of medical officers for foreign service.In this case it was allowed that the difficulty was not insuperable. Thirdly, it was said that—It is impossible to adminster the station hospitals with the two classes of medical officers without great friction;This was one of those vague arguments which was, for that reason, difficult to answer; but he could not but think it a trivial point. Again, it was said that—It would not provide for the medical attendance of detachments, which would be in the same position as at present.1377 The experience of the Household Troops, however, proved conclusively that there was no force in this objection. Fifthly,It would, in some cases, involve a waste of power and a probable deterioration in the professional competence of the medical officer so attached, owing to want of practice; and that at the larger stations the advantage of being able to distribute the medical afficers, so that special classes of cases may be dealt with by specially qualified surgeons, would be lost;but under the system that had been suggested by the Duke of Cambridge and others—namely, that a medical officer should be attached to a regiment for five years, that would be entirely obviated, and there would be ample opportunity for proper practice. The sixth, and the last, objection was the real one. It wassaid—"It would entail additional expense." That expense had been put down by the authorities themselves at £22,500 a-year. He maintained that the present system sacrificed the efficiency and the comfort of the Army to an utterly false economy; that, in fact, it involved at critical times a far greater outlay than could possibly be saved in time of peace; it helped most materially to disgust the men whom already we found such difficulty in attracting as recruits to our Army, or in retaining when trained in the Army, and all that for the sake of saving, at the outside, £22,500 a-year, and for the sake of giving a further fair trial, as it was called, to a system which, in the opinion of every military expert, and every reliable authority, had already completely broken down. After what he had said, he did not think he need dwell on the proposal to assimilate the Medical Service of the Household Troops to that of the rest of the Army. If the beauties of uniformity were alone to justify such a proposal, he might point out that it could be attained as easily and with real advantage to the Service by assimilating the Medical Service of the rest of the Army to that of the Brigade of Guards, and by providing that, as in the Brigade, the regimental medical officers should do duty at the station hospital. He must point out, however, that if the proposed assimilation were carried out the grossest injustice would be done; because the medical officers of the Household Troops had joined that branch of the Service on the distinct understanding that they should 1378 be retained as medical officers in the Household Troops. They joined that branch of the Service, though well aware of any such disadvantages attaching to the position as those mentioned in Lord Morley's Report—namely, that they were excluded from advancement to the higher grades; and yet, with that knowledge, not only did they join willingly and gladly in the first instance, but now they were equally surprised and disgusted to find it was seriously proposed by Lord Morley's Committee to assimilate to the broken down and generally condemned medical system of the rest of the Army that system, under which their services were first engaged, and for which they had already resigned any participation in the chance of advancement to higher grades, to which a different choice in their profession at the first would have entitled them. He did not suppose, however, that this recommendation of the Committee would receive the serious attention of the authorities; and in any case he would leave the subject to others better qualified by their connection with the Guards to deal with the question. He regretted to have taken up so much of the time of the Committee as a civilian; but he had thought himself bound to allude to the results of that inquiry which he had done his utmost to promote, and he had, at least, had opportunities of forming an impartial opinion as to the absolute necessity of a return to a modified form of the regimental system. By the new Rules he was precluded from bringing forward at this stage of the Estimates a Motion; but he expressed the hope that the general judgment, not only of the House, but of the authorities, might agree with him, in the terms of a Motion which stood in his name on the Paper, that—The present method of appointing Medical Officers in the Army according to the Unification System has not contributed either to the efficiency or economy of the Service, and that such economy and efficiency would be better secured by a return to a modified form of the Regimental System.
§ DR. FARQUHARSONsaid, that, before he ventured to make a few remarks on the various questions touched on by his hon. Friend, he desired to congratulate the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War (the Marquess of Hartington) upon the saving of £600 1379 a-year which had been effected by the abolition of the post of Commandant at Netley. He had got, however, a slight suspicion that this long-standing grievance was not altogether dead yet. He did not want to accuse the noble Marquess of any desire to perpetuate the grievance in another form; but he thought the military authorities were very anxious to cling to this particular piece of patronage. He noticed that in "another place" military authorities had maintained that every military hospital ought to have a commandant of this kind attached to them. He should like to know whether Colonel Pell was now, in a modified form, Commandant at Netley; whether he was to be allowed to have access to the wards at all times, and inspect them as a field officer? Because, if that were so, the new state of things would be nothing more or less than a perpetuation of the old grievance. He hoped the noble Marquess would be able to assure the Committee that this officer would be entirely subordinate to the officer commanding the district. The gentleman could not, according to the Army Regulations, have anything to do with the school at Netley, which had a separate existence under the Secretary of State for War. He (Dr. Farquharson) should consider the gentleman's duties were merely extracted or filched from those of the officer commanding the district. He thought the Medical Department would hear with great satisfaction that there was a determination to amalgamate the Army Hospital Corps into one large Corps. He hoped it would succeed in attracting a better class of men to the Corps. The Army Hospital Corps were much complained of for their conduct in the recent campaign in Egypt. To a certain degree the hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Guy Dawnay's) accusations were borne out by the facts. It was said the men were intemperate, lazy, and dishonest. They certainly performed their duties of nursing badly; but it must be remembered they were never taught nursing. Many of them had never seen a sick man in bed before they went out to Egypt; therefore, it was not to be wondered at that many of them were unfit to discharge the difficult duties of nursing sick men. It was a fact that some of them had only three months' training at home prior to being sent out, and that a great part of the time was 1380 taken up with the ordinary drill of the soldier. Moreover, when they were out in Egypt they were greatly overworked. At Ismailia, owing to deficiency of transport, the men of the Army Hospital Corps had to work like beasts of burden, bringing up the stores to the hospitals. Their duties were hard and laborious, and they were very often disagreeable duties. There was, therefore, some excuse for the men; and the Committee must not be too hard upon them, considering the very few opportunities they had had beforehand of learning the work they were called upon to do. It was evident that in future the men of this Corps must have a long and special training. It was quite evident they must have at least two months' nursing experience, and that they must be taught cooking. They ought to be well paid; their prospects of promotion ought to be improved; and their characters, previous to entering the Service, ought to be more carefully sifted than they had been hitherto. Of course, it was quite evident also that it was best to recruit the men from civil life. A commanding officer would not give up his best men for hospital service; therefore, it was well the Army Hospital Corps should be recruited directly from civil life. It was desirable, too, that the Army Medical Department should have some opportunity of practising bearers and field hospital drill. It was important that an entire field hospital should occasionally be mobilized in this country, as was the case so often in Germany. As to the regimental system, they had been told that terrible results had followed the abandonment of the old regimental system. Personally, he was in favour of a return to some modified form of the regimental system, which, of course, was now quite dead, and could never be revived. It would be well if medical officers were appointed to a regiment for four or five years, and during that time had an opportunity of attending hospitals. He did not believe the regimental and hospital duties would clash at all; on the contrary, he was of opinion that the plan would work extremely well. The present system was an exceedingly bad one socially for the Medical Department; and it was otherwise an uncomfortable and disagreeable one, inasmuch as the doctors had no settled home. It was also a very inconvenient 1381 system to the regimental officers themselves. It was a bad system, because officers did not know to whom they should send in case of need; he knew that men had been attended by two or three different doctors. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Guy Dawnay) had made what he (Dr. Farquharson) considered a very unjust attack upon the Medical Department during the recent campaign in Egypt. He gathered from the Blue Book that the Medical Department in that campaign was one of the most successful Departments, in a medical point of view, that had ever been known in this or in any other country. Those who were attached to the Department did their duty with zeal, efficiency, and skill; and the Report of Sir William M'Cormack in the Blue Book bore ample testimony to the difficulties which had to be encountered. There were great difficulties in connection with the character of the roads, and also in the absence of transport. The troops pushing rapidly to the front were without the means of transport; and, bearing in mind the nature of the difficulties, the medical results were far better than in any previous campaign. Sir William M'Cormack, a great authority upon such matters, expressed that opinion over and over again. During the period the Army were in the field, and afterwards those scourges to which the military were subject in hospital—such as gangrene, erysipelas, &c.—were almost unknown. Although ophthalmia constantly occurred early in the campaign, it was satisfactory to find that not a single man lost his sight. Everything was sent out that was required, or could be desired, for the comfort and ease of the Army in the field. The Medical Department were not responsible for the places which were used as hospitals. He knew that at Ismailia a disused palace was suddenly handed over, and at 48 hours' notice a large hospital had to be extemporized out of practically nothing, because, although it was a very large building, there was absolutely nothing in it when it was handed over. When the ships arrived the transport for the use of the Medical Department was taken away for military purposes and field hospitals. No. 2 and 3 had to be dragged up with great labour by the men of the Army Hospital Corps. It was opened on the 23rd of August; and when they were 1382 inspected on the 25th by Sir John Adye he said that they appeared to be comfortably arranged, and that everything had been done for the comfort of the men that could be done. Lord Wolseley visited the hospitals, and expressed himself satisfied with everything that was being done. Under these circumstances, what occurred afterwards in his Lordship's evidence before the Morley Committee came upon the Department like a thunder-bolt. He was sorry to detain the Committee so long, but these were very important points. On the 16th of September Lord Wolseley wrote—
The medical arrangements were all they could have been, and reflect the highest credit upon Surgeon-General Hanbury.On the 24th of the same month he wrote—The Medical Department, under Surgeon General Hanbury, C.B., have done everything that could possibly be done for the care and comfort of the sick and wounded. The manner in which the wounded were removed from the fighting line by the Bearer Company was most satisfactory.And on the 30th Lord Wolseley telegraphed to Dr. Crawford, the Director General of the Army Medical Department, from Abdin—Dr. Hanbury has shown me your telegram as to the alleged defects in medical arrangements. I have told him he need not answer, as full explanations go home by post. "We are all too busy here to reply to the false and malicious reports to which you refer. The Medical Department is working to my entire satisfaction.No wonder that the statements subsequently made came upon the Medical Department like a thunder-bolt. He found that most of the complaints in regard to the supply of food were made by men who had had no experience of warfare. The staff of cooks was certainly not composed of experienced men. It was impossible to keep meat there, and it was necessary to cook it quickly every night. When the men were asked why they asserted that they had nothing to eat, they said it was provided for them as medical comforts, not as food; but, at the same time, it must be borne in mind that, for medical reasons, the men were purposely kept low. As he had said, if they were to analyze the complaints they would find that they were made by inexperienced men, who had had no previous experience of war, and who were fretting in consequence of the restrictions upon 1383 their ease and comfort, which restrictions, however, were absolutely necessary. The complaints were principally complaints with regard to the food supply. They were made by one officer and six men of the Life Guards, by four men of the Royal Horse Guards, and by one or two of the Coldstream Guards and the Scots Guards. On the other hand, the Infantry generally expressed themselves satisfied with all that was done for them. As to the deficiency of beds, to which allusion had been made, it must be remembered that Ismailia was only a naval hospital.
§ MR. GUY DAWNAYsaid, he had referred to the want of palliasses.
§ DR. FARQUHARSONremarked that complaint had also been made of the deficiency of drugs, and especially of carbolic oil; but this was a clumsy way of using antiseptic treatment, and a far better plan was to make a lotion with water and carbolic acid, of which there was an ample supply. In regard to the complaints made against the Medical Department for abstaining from purchasing articles required in connection with the service in Egypt, he would simply remind the Committee of a paragraph in a letter from the War Office, dated August 5, 1882, and addressed to the General Officer commanding the troops in Egypt. This letter said—
It is essential that, except in the case of petty office or departmental purchases (which may he made by heads of department) there should he but one purchasing department in the local market, and all articles required should be provided by means of requisitions upon the Commissariat Department, which should give all the necessary information as to quantities and description, and the measures proposed for obtaining the supplies. The responsibility of making the purchases in the best possible manner will then rest with the senior Commissariat officer, subject to your orders.They were told that the bread was bad. No doubt the bread was bad, and it was reported against by the medical officer. At the earliest moment, and as soon as possible, better bread was issued. It was said—"Why did not the Medical Department buy broad for themselves?" It was impossible to do so, because there was not nearly enough bread in the market at the time to supply the hospitals. That fact was fully borne out by the evidence. Major Butler, who was the commandant, admitted that some of 1384 the officers at their own table were able to get excellent bread. Very likely that was the reason why the medical officers were not able to obtain it for the hospitals. What would have happened if the medical officers had decided on purchasing for themselves all the articles of which there was a deficiency? No doubt they were most anxious to have everything that was required; but if they had purchased without authority, would they have had any prospect of getting their money back again? A supply of mosquito curtains had been sent out; but when they were wanted they could not be found, and what could be bought were perfectly valueless, and neither the men nor the officers could use them—they considered it far more desirable to have plenty of fresh air. The fact was that the public mind had been contaminated, not only by the unfortunate evidence before the Morley Committee, which was all on one side of the question, but by the credulity of certain newspaper correspondents. He recollected a painful story which appeared in England about the amputation of a Life Guardsman's shoulder without the use of chloroform; but it was simply the vague floating gossip which was going about at the time, and which had been told in conversation to one of the newspaper correspondents, who, without taking the slightest pains to verify the story, sent it homo as a fact. Another similar instance of credulity was to be found in the story of a correspondent who pointed out that the officers in the Medical Department were in the habit of going round the hospitals and serving all the sick men with pills out of the same box. Now, the fact of the matter was that the pill pannier was divided into a large number of partitions; and this innocent newspaper correspondent, because the medical officer took the pills he wanted from the same pannier, jumped at the conclusion that he was giving to every man the same kind of drug. He desired to say a single word in reference to the question which had been introduced in reference to the Guards. As an old Guards' medical officer, he deprecated any interference with their ancient privileges. As long as they were retained as a special Corps, he did not see why they should not have specialities of their own; and he did not think any evidence had been adduced to 1385 show that any other system would work better. It would only entail extra expense to the medical officers, without effecting any public saving. The argument of Sir William M'Cormack was that a medical officer should be afforded an opportunity of coming to London, where he would have better facilities for study; but the Guards' medical work was not of an ordinary character, and it occupied a great deal of time. It would not be easy for a medical officer to do his duty thoroughly, and to be in attendance at barracks, if he were required to go away at 12 or 1 o'clock for attendance in the hospitals scattered about over the town. It must also be remembered that in many of the Provincial towns—such as Leeds, Liverpool, and Manchester —where the Guards were stationed, there were excellent medical hospitals and schools. At all events, if this change were to be made—if fiat had gone forth that the alteration was to be carried out, he hoped it would be distinctly understood that none of the medical officers now serving would be affected by it. He apologized once more for having detained the Committee so long.
COLONEL STANLEYsaid, the question had been discussed with great ability; and he was sure the speeches that had been delivered had been listened to with great pleasure on both sides of the House. In regard to the speech of his hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Guy Dawnay), he thought his hon. Friend had brought to light in the very best taste, and in the very best way, the prominent points that were the subject of investigation by the Committee last year; and although it could not be considered that the medical discussion had sustained any injury in consequence of being postponed, still, at the same time, there might have been some advantage if it could have been raised when the matters were more freshly in the recollection of the House. The charge of inefficiency and want of care, brought at an early period against the medical officers, had now been entirely dropped; and it had become more and more clear that the Medical Department, as far as the professional requirements of the officers themselves were concerned, had come out of the inquiry, so to speak, with flying colours. No doubt, great defects had been brought to light in regard to 1386 medical matters in the Egyptian Campaign. No one, after reading the Blue Book, could for a moment doubt that fact; but that which seemed to him to underlay the whole was the fact, as Sir John Adye had said, that military necessities overruled everything else. There was a sudden, and, to a great extent, a secret change of plan. He did not know whether that was the right word; but, at any rate, a sudden change was made in pursuance of which secrecy was necessary, and there were not the same opportunities afforded which would have been afforded had the movement been made openly, and the ordinary arrangements made beforehand. The very basis on which the hospital equipment depended was not only shifted, but the means of transport necessary for the Medical Service were appropriated to other purposes instead of those for which they were originally intended. All that, undoubtedly, occasioned severe pressure, and produced results which no one could pretend to underrate, and which all must deplore. He thought, however, that Sir William M'Cormack, and others who supported him, were justified when they pointed out that the general results of the Egyptian Campaign, from a medical point of view, compared very favourably with those of any campaign on an extensive scale, which had been undertaken in times past. A good deal of these complaints seemed to have arisen from defects in the system of hospital orderlies; and he hoped the noble Marquess, when he rose to reply, would tell the Committee that he had not lost sight of that point, but would inform them what changes and further improvements he had introduced, and intended to introduce, into the hospital system. With regard to the bad bread, Lord Wolseley seemed to have given evidence, which, as the hon. Gentleman opposite (Dr. Farquharson) said, had fallen like a thunder-clap after the previous good Reports of the good working of the medical system; but he (Colonel Stanley) must say that, after those Reports, Lord Wolseley did not appear to have stinted himself in the use of forcible language; but there appeared to be a great deal that was entirely reconcilable between the first account of Lord Wolseley and his evidence before the Committee. What he understood Lord Wolseley to complain of, in the main, as one of the prin- 1387 cipal faults was that the initiative was not taken freely enough by the medical officers. He was bound to say, although he spoke with great respect as far as the financial point of view was concerned, that the medical officers would have been fully justified, under the circumstances of the case, in acting on their own account, as Lord Wolseley had said; and, perhaps, when things were not at hand and absolutely at their disposal for the immediate use of their patients, they might have risked a little more in assuming responsibility, and the authorities would not have failed to support them. He did not remember, speaking from memory, a single case in the South African Campaign where any charge was thrown upon a medical officer, where he had incurred it on his own responsibility, meaning to act for the good of the Service. He, therefore, thought a little more boldness would have prevented many of the things which were complained of in the Blue Book. When the mosquito curtains, which were said to have been purchased, were not at hand when they ought to have been, and the men were suffering from the want of them, and their suffering might have been avoided by a little expenditure and a little risk, he was satisfied the authorities and the public would have fully condoned the medical officers if they had taken steps to procure curtains, and the medical officers themselves would have obtained credit, and would not, in the end, have lost in pocket. Perhaps he might be allowed to say one or two words on a somewhat more delicate subject which cropped up in all these questions—namely, how far was it the fault not of the circumstances, but of the system? It seemed to him that a great deal was often laid at the door of the unification system, which was hardly fair towards it. Personally, he was able to speak without bias upon this point. He had been brought up under the system, which all liked very much, and which he believed had been found to work very well, certainly in peace times, and, with certain exceptions, it worked well in a time of war—he referred to the regimental system. With respect to that regimental system, he had come to the same conclusion as his noble Friend and Predecessor Lord Cardwell—that they could not revert to that system as it was. Nor was it entirely due 1388 to those who, for theoretical reasons, wanted to make the station hospital the unit rather than the regiment. The fact was that the change had been forced on Lord Cardwell by circumstances not from within, but from without the Department. Day by day the difficulties were found to be greater in obtaining for the benefit of the Medical Service such candidates as, in former times, would have been willing to enter; and although there was not in a great honoured and learned Profession, such as the Medical Profession, anything like Trade Unionism, still there was something like it in the way in which young men from the medical schools were drawn aside from the Army, and told that there was no prospect for them, and that they must not expect to rise as they would be able to do in Civil life. There was a great deal of truth in that. There were in the higher ranks of the Army Medical Service comparatively few advantages; and he believed it was merely on account of that that the medical schools—and he said it, he hoped, without offence— set their faces against candidates going into the Army. It was a very serious state of things. Lord Cardwell, among other things, attempted to deal with it by an increase of pay and position in the higher ranks; and in order to do that he endeavoured to meet the difficulty, first of all, by a diminution in the number of medical officers; and, secondly, by a system which would admit of the more free introduction and use of medical officers. Lord Cranbrook succeeded to that system; but it was not found to work well. The complaints were frequent; competition for entrance into the Department became rare; and there were often more places than competitors for them. One proposal after another was made; and to bring himself to a more recent date he believed the Warrant under which the Medical Service was now constituted was one which was passed at the time he had had the honour to be at the War Office. One of its immediate effects was to bring a number of candidates for ward, and there was actually competition for entrance into the Service. They were thus able to have a selection of the best men, where, up to that time, there had been comparatively no selection at all. First of all, it equalized the conditions of the Service, when they could be equalized 1389 in no other way; and, secondly, it gave the men entering the Service a better prospect in regard to their future lives. The men did not feel, in comparatively early years, that they had reached a point beyond which they could not go; but that there was a career, and not an ill-paid career, open to officers in the Medical Department, by which they had an opportunity of rising even to the very highest positions. He had never been able, himself, entirely to appreciate—perhaps it was part of the old leaven still remaining—the difficulty which seemed to have been felt, in officers, although they belonged to and were interchangeable in a Department, yet being attached to regiments for a considerable time, doing duty in those regiments, and yet doing joint duty with others in a station hospital. There never appeared to his mind much greater difficulty in that, although he did not say the cases were precisely analogous, than there was in the case of an officer doing regimental duty, and also garrison duty. There was one point on which, perhaps, undue stress had been laid in regard to the abolition of regimental medical officers. There was a tendency to exaggerate the difficulties that would arise to officers in discharging their regimental duties if they were also to perform duties at a station hospital. There was nothing in the Departmental system, as originally explained, to prevent the attachment of a medical officer to the battalion and to every regiment and battery in the Service, and the closer such a system were adhered to the better it would be for all persons concerned. But there were two difficulties; first of all, he would frankly say there was an influential Department of the State in charge of the public purse, which was supposed to take the views of the Secretary of State for War; but there was a still greater difficulty. It did not appear to the War Office in the years 1878, 1879, and 1880 to be desirable, just at the moment they had a good attendance, to re-introduce the system of selecting candidates by competition, when they had a chance, as it were for the moment, of raising the Medical Service of the Army to something beyond the point at which they were obliged to be contented to stop. It did not seem to them to be wise at that moment to provide more 1390 places than there were men to fill them, and thus to sweep away the advantage of the very competition which, on the other hand, they thought it desirable to re-introduce as essential for the good of the Service. That had a good deal to do with the question at the moment. There were also other subsidiary questions. A number of gentlemen, who were civil practitioners, had been specially engaged at the time, some of whom had gone out to South Africa, and elsewhere, at considerable inconvenience, and it would not be either right or wise to displace them. There were other points of that nature which required consideration; but what he wished to emphasize was that there was nothing in the Departmental system, as then constituted, which inherently prevented the attachment of a medical officer to each battalion and battery; and the longer, he ventured to say, that could be done, so long as the officer could be left without detriment to the Service, so much the better it would be for all parties concerned. A case occurred to him at that moment. A regiment was sent out on foreign service, the medical officer of which was also going out to the same destination; but he was taken away from the regiment and attached to another battalion, which was going to the same destination as his own proper battalion, but in another ship. Now, that seemed to him to be one of the many needless changes, which he did not mean to say were not justified, because if they had a roster it was necessary to adhere to it, but which showed the advantages of the regimental over the Departmental system. It seemed, to his mind, to be a case where a compromise between the regimental and the Departmental systems might have produced a better effect than was produced at the time. That was the light in which he read the assent to the system which had been given by his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Berkshire (Sir Robert Lloyd Lindsay), whose absence at that moment he deeply regretted, and also of General Hawley, whom they all knew to be one of the best regimental officers in the Service. He did not think it followed as a corollary; but he shared the feeling of the hon. Member for West Aberdeen-shire (Dr. Farquharson), that this was not exactly the moment in which 1391 they could go out of their way to alter the system which prevailed in the Brigade of Guards. He waited with some anxiety to hear what the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War would have to say on that point; but it did appear to him that there were various points connected with the system which it would be wise to leave alone, provided the public generally did not suffer. A good deal had been made of the establishment of a general large hospital in London. It was said that the officers would gain by being interchanged with officers in other regiments now quartered out of London, and that officers out of London would gain by going up to London and being within reach of all the most refined appliances and the latest lessons of medical teaching. He doubted, however, from all he had hitherto heard, whether it would be a kindness to bring officers up to London every two or three years in this manner. It would be asking them to throw away a good deal of money, and to sacrifice many advantages which they at present enjoyed. Moreover, they would be initiating a system, which would certainly not be a very popular one, without enjoying any of those distinct advantages which an alteration of the medical system in other directions had produced. He hoped it was a sine quâ non that it would be understood that the changes in the Warrant would not apply to any of the existing officers without their own consent. As far as he remembered, the question was, to a certain extent, discussed in 1879; and he thought what was then arrived at as a compromise was that no medical officer should reach the higher branches of the Service unless he had been for a certain time actively employed abroad; but upon a medical officer giving up his chance of obtaining a higher post he was to be exempt from the necessity of going abroad and quitting the battalion to which he had been attached. That, at the time it was arrived at, was considered to be a fair compromise; and he believed that it was accepted by the Medical Service as such. He doubted, also, whether it would be found, unless they were prepared to give a higher rate of pay and increased allowances that there would, in point of fact, be any great kindness in bringing officers up to 1392 London to live here for two or three years in charge of hospitals, who had no particular connections in London, and who would necessarily have to set up establishments for themselves at no inconsiderable cost. He did not think the proposal would be accepted with such approval as seemed to be anticipated in some quarters. At the present moment, as far as he was aware, they had no large hospital in London which they could use, so that if they brought in a new system, after all they would only create one central staff for the purpose of sub-dividing it. For all these reasons, and without expressing at that moment an absolute and final opinion upon the point, he would ask the noble Marquess to hold his hand in the matter until it was proved that all parties concerned would benefit by the proposed change. It was perfectly certain that one result would be to sacrifice a good deal of the public money; and if it did not produce a better result than that which now existed, there would be a good deal of heartburning in consequence. As he had stated before, he spoke with a bias which he could not pretend had been wholly effaced; but he did think that these were common-sense points, which he hoped the noble Marquess would fully appreciate. He was sorry to have trespassed so long on the time of the Committee; but he had considered it his duty, having had to do with the Administration formerly, to make these remarks on the subject. He had pointed out the general principles within which they could act legitimately in connection with all that had been done before; and he hoped that the noble Marquess and his advisers, having regard to the wants of the Service, would look carefully through all the details, and see whether, by the careful working of them, they could not still bring those general principles, which most people considered to be absolutely necessary, into harmony with the general conditions of the Service.
§ DR. LYONSsaid, he did not intend, nor, indeed, did he think it necessary, to enter at any length into the merits or demerits of the Medical Department in the late Egyptian Campaign. It was not necessary he should do so, because public opinion, as was usually the case when time was given it to form a correct 1393 estimate, had veered round in the right direction. He believed there was now no doubt in the mind of anyone who had inquired into all the circumstances, and informed themselves properly that the charges which were hastily, unwisely, and unjustly made against the Medical Department for the part they played in the Egyptian Campaign of 1882 had completely fallen to the ground. The House and the country could congratulate themselves upon the success of that campaign. If, in the future, the country found itself engaged in any other expeditions or wars, it would, indeed, be very fortunate if it had as little to complain of as it had in respect to the Egyptian War. No doubt, some of the success which was achieved was due to the singular rapidity with which the campaign was conducted. It must always be borne in mind that scenes of war were necessarily attended with more or less of human suffering; and that it was the object and desire of the Medical Profession, and of the Government who feel it its duty to throw an army into the field, to diminish the sufferings of humanity to the lowest possible point. He ventured to say that that point was almost reached during the campaign they were contemplating. His hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire (Dr. Farquharson) had entered at some length, and with considerable ability, into many very interesting subjects. It was not necessary he should follow his hon. Friend very closely into the subjects he had so effectively dealt with. One subject—namely, that of the bread supply to the troops in Egypt, had been incidentally touched upon. He was of opinion that it was utterly impossible for the medical officer on the spot to make any better arrangements, and that view of the case was fully borne out by the evidence. The question of the supply of food was always the most difficult one in connection with the movement of great masses of men. The question of the Army medical system had of late occupied a good deal of public attention. The treatment of regiments by their own medical officers, which was so popular for a long time in the country, was never likely to be revived again to its full extent; but those who had seen warlike operations must admit that some other means of dealing with wounded men 1394 than those recently adopted must in practice be found. It was always well that the medical officers should be personally known to the men; that they should be acquainted with the characters and constitutional history of the men of the regiment; and he could quite conceive that it would be possible that a medical officer might be attached to a regiment for a period of five years, and that after that time, or even during the five years, a certain portion of his time might be given up to dealing with disease and injury in hospital centres. There was another point on which he wished to say a word; he mentioned it on a former occasion. Nursing was, undoubtedly, one of the most difficult of all the practical questions that had to be dealt with in connection with large masses of men engaged in a campaign. He was of opinion that a solution of the question would be found in a very much enlarged nursing organization. They could not get men to discharge more than the mere routine duty of an hospital attendant. The more careful class of nurses must be looked for in females of good constitution and of superior education, and with a special vocation for nursing. Of course, it would be very difficult to get a good and efficient corps of female nurses; but if it could be formed he was persuaded the very greatest advantage would accrue. He disapproved of any kind of responsibility being attached to the medical officer for the errors and sins, either of omission or commission, of the nurses, no matter how carefully they might have been selected. In any future campaigns in which they might be engaged, he trusted there would be a more intimate relation between the Commander in the field and the Chief of the Medical Staff. The first medical officer ought to be in confidential communication with the Commander; indeed, he should hold some recognized position upon the Staff.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONI shall detain the Committee for a very short time with any reference to the remarks which were made by the hon. Member for the North Riding (Mr. Guy Dawnay) upon the Report of Lord Morley's Committee. Sir, I am inclined to agree generally in the reply given to the hon. Gentleman by the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Dr. Farqu- 1395 harson). I do not think that the hon. Member (Mr. Guy Dawnay), notwithstanding all the care and attention which he told us he had bestowed on that inquiry, established any of the allegations which had been made now for more than a year and a-half, and which I am sorry to say the hon. Member has repeated in a general form, as to the breakdown of the medical administration in Egypt. In my opinion, it was sufficiently proved, by the investigation of Lord Morley's Committee, that there was nothing which could be called a breakdown in either the medical or in any of the other arrangements in Egypt. There was a certain amount of inconvenience; there was a certain amount of hardship; there was a certain amount of want of preparation at particular stages of that campaign; but I think it has been, conclusively proved by the Report of Lord Morley's Committee, and by the various discussions which have taken place upon it, that such inconveniences and such failures as did take place were owing either to the conditions of the campaign, or to the fact that there was a necessarily sudden military movement, which made it impossible for all the Departments to be as efficiently organized to perform their duties as they would have been had the campaign been conducted under other circumstances. To a great extent, anything that has been complained of was due to that circumstance. I do not say that everything was due to that circumstance. What took place at Cairo afterwards, so far as there was any reason for complaint, probably could not be attributed to Lord Wolseley's movements; but such complaints as are justified, and are not to be attributed to the causes which I have mentioned, are to be attributed to a failure, which we thoroughly acknowledge, to solve an admittedly most difficult problem likely to befall any military nation—the thorough organization of its Departments of supply to its Army in the field. We quite admit that our organization requires constant care, although we do not think it is altogether faulty. I have myself appointed, as I mentioned some time ago, a Departmental Committee to inquire into some of the conditions of that problem; and the House of Commons has also appointed a Committee, which is now sitting, to inquire into some of the questions which arose in 1396 connection with the campaign in Egypt. Under these circumstances, while I fully admit that the Report of Lord Morley's Committee will be productive of a great deal of good, and while I admit that good lessons may be learnt from a careful study of that Report, and of the evidence on which it is founded, I doubt whether there is anything gained by the introduction in this House of charges more or less vague, more or loss unsubstantiated, and which I must say the hon. Gentleman the Member for the North Riding (Mr. Guy Dawnay) did not support by his references to the Report of the Committee. The hon. Gentleman acknowledged that he did not make what is called a Blue Book speech, and that it would have been easy for him to do so. No doubt it would; but I must point out that although the hon. Member made a much more interesting and a much more effective speech by refraining from any lengthy reference to the Blue Book, he, at the same time, made it difficult to meet the somewhat vague allegations which he has repeatedly brought forward unless by reference to Blue Books. The greater part of the hon. Member's observations were directed to what is called the unification system, and to the modification of that system, which was proposed by the minority of Lord Morley's Committee. Now, Sir, the hon. Member supported his proposal for a modification of the present system by a reference to the military evidence which has been given before Lord Morley's Committee. But the hon. Member did not allege, and he could not allege, that the change which he advocated was supported by any of the medical witnesses who were examined before the Committee; and, in fact, he told the Committee that the medical witnesses appear to have been asked very few questions on the subject. Surely this is a matter on which a decision must be arrived at after hearing the medical as well as the military evidence. In my opinion, the military evidence, to which the hon. Gentleman has pointed, is not of that strong and conclusive character he would lead us to believe. He alluded, for instance, to the evidence of Colonel Nicholls. I have referred to that evidence, and no doubt Colonel Nicholls did relate an anecdote of a single case of hardship which might have occurred under any system. The rest of his 1397 evidence with regard to what is complained of is of a most inconclusive character. What does he say in answer to the second question put to him?—
Could you inform the Committee whether you have experienced, either here or at other stations at which you have been quartered at home, any difficulty or inconvenience in regard to obtaining medical attendance on your men, or on the officers of your battalion?—The married people always say that they have got great difficulty in finding the doctor.In further examination, he said, in answer to the question—And there is no difficulty put in the way of regimental officers visiting him?—Not the least. The doctors are exactly the same as they were before in that respect; but it gives more trouble to find a man. And certainly the women of the regiment do not think that the present system is anything to compare with the old one; they look at the doctor now as their enemy, not as their friend. In old times he was quite their friend.Surely the medical administration of the Army is not to be decided by the women; and yet that is the main part of the evidence. The arguments for and against the present system are, as had been said, so fully stated in the Report of Lord Morley's Committee, and in the dissent of two Members from that Report, that I am afraid that anything I can say on the matter will not add very much to what may be gathered from a perusal of that Report. The majority of the Committee acknowledge that there is a reasonable complaint of there being too frequent changes in the medical officers in charge of the troops; and they think it will be possible to make arrangements by which these too frequent changes which have been complained of shall be, to a great extent, remedied. One of the great difficulties experienced is that it has not been found possible for the brigade surgeon, in charge of a considerable body of troops, to be accommodated with quarters in the camp, and he has been obliged to live in lodgings; but the War Office Committee have endeavoured to make arrangements for quarters in camp to be provided for the medical officers, so that they may be accessible at all times. There is considerable difficulty in this matter, because brigade surgeons are generally married men, and there is not sufficient accommodation for them in the married quarters; but we are doing what we can in the matter. Now, with regard to the proposition that, in all 1398 cases, medical officers should be attached to battalions, in the first place, the difficulty is one of a financial character. A few years ago, as has been stated, the position of the Army Medical Service was very deplorable. Candidates up to the standard could not be found for appointments in the Army Medical Department, and we were obliged to take them without competition; and, in consequence, the standard was not what it would have been under other circumstances. Great advantages were offered to, and great improvements have been made in the position of, medical officers, in regard to pay, prospects, and pensions. Those improvements could not be made without involving the expenditure of a considerable sum of money. The assent of the Treasury and of Parliament to those improvements in the position of the medical officers was distinctly obtained on the understanding that such economies as were consistent with the efficiency of the Service should be made; and one of the economies which, in the opinion of the principal medical authorities of the Army, could be made, not only without detriment to, but with actual improvement in, the efficiency of the Medical Service, was the substitution of a system of station hospitals for the system of regimental medical officers. It will, therefore, be a matter which will require very much consideration whether we should now go back to what would certainly be a more expensive system without having much stronger ground for it than has yet been brought forward. A Committee inquired into this and many other matters during the latter part of the administration of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Stanley). That Committee reported that the attachment of medical officers to battalions would, under one contingency—that is to say, maintaining the principle of continuity of control in regard to the smaller hospitals—make it necessary to appoint 41 additional medical officers at an expense of over £22,000; or, if that principle were not insisted upon, then the increase of medical officers might be reduced to 21, at an expense of between £14,000 and £15,000 a-year. At the stations where single battalions are quartered, there would be practically no change. The hospital is now practically a regimental hospital, and the officer in charge is prac- 1399 tically attached to the regiment. Neither would there be any change in the smaller hospitals. The change that would take place would be at the camps and at the larger stations, where, in. my opinion, the change which was proposed would lead to a very great waste of power, and also to considerable friction. Then it is said that the officers attached to battalions might, in addition to their duties with the troops, also discharge duties in the station hospitals. No doubt that might be done; but that would almost certainly cause a considerable want of efficiency. The medical officers would be under the command of two different commanding officers; and that is a system which has never worked well under any circumstances. They would be under the command of one commanding officer in regard to their duties in the regiment, and under the principal medical officer in regard to their duties in respect to the hospitals; and, after all, unless at the expense of a great loss of efficiency, these officers, who are employed in the hospitals, would have nothing to do with the battalions to which they were attached. In order to secure the most efficient working and control over hospitals, particular officers must be told off to particular wards, and particular wards are devoted to particular diseases and ailments. Therefore, it would be a mere matter of chance whether a medical officer attached to a battalion, when performing duties in the hospital, would have anything to do with the men in his own regiment. Therefore, all the information which the medical officers could possess of the regiment and the men would be thrown away for those occasions when it would be of value. The argument as to their knowledge of the character and constitution of the men has, therefore, lost a great deal of force under the present circumstances. It may have had some force when a doctor had a chance of becoming acquainted with the men; but now, when men serve so short a time, and the change from home battalions to foreign battalions is so frequent, and the men pass from the care of one officer to another so rapidly, there is very little in that argument. Then it is said that the medical officers attached to battalions for a particular time would have an opportunity of acquiring habits of discipline in which they are now deficient. As to that 1400 argument, I have only to say that if a medical officer is to obtain the habits of discipline, it is necessary that he should do that at a very early period of his military career. If he is to acquire habits of discipline, that must be done when he enters the Service. If not, it is not likely that when he comes to be quartered with a battalion, he will be able to acquire any habits of discipline which he did not previously possess. But if a medical officer is to be attached to a battalion at the commencement of his military career, then the consequence will be that the officers and non-commissioned officers, and the men and their wives and families, will be condemned to receive permanently the medical attendance of the most inexperienced members of the Medical Profession. That would be a change which I do not think would be at all satisfactory; and, further, it would be a change which would be extremely injurious to the efficiency of the medical officers themselves. Instead of taking a position where they would gradually learn their profession, and have the fullest opportunity of obtaining that knowledge which is necessary, they would be placed, at the very outset of their career, in a position where they would have little practice, and comparatively little opportunity of improving their minds and increasing their knowledge. I believe that that is a change which would be altogether uncongenial to, and strongly deprecated by, the members of the Army Medical Department. During the last two and a-half years there had been 85 appointments made in the Army Medical Service, and for those there were 259 candidates; and it is easy to suppose that, under such circumstances, the quality of the Medical Service has gradually improved. Under these circumstances, I think it would be unwise to introduce changes which are altogether opposed to the feelings of the Medical Profession, and which have been rejected by a very large majority of very competent men examined before Lord Morley's Committee, who strongly recommended that the present system should be retained, with such modifications as might be thought desirable. For these reasons I cannot hold out any hope that we are likely to adopt a modified regimental system. There has been one other question raised, and that is as to establishing 1401 a properly organized general hospital in London. I believe the medical officers would be the last to deny, and I believe there is no doubt, that great advantage might be expected to accrue to the Medical Service and to the Army generally, and that arrangements more satisfactory to the Guards themselves would result, from the establishment of a properly organized general hospital in London. That would give the whole Army Medical Profession great opportunities of improving themselves, to which Army medical officers would look forward with considerable hope. But, as has been stated by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Stanley), such a proposal would probably be a costly one, and that it is a proposal which cannot be entertained until the question of regimental medical officers has been disposed of. That is a question which has not yet been settled, and which may not be settled for some considerable time to come. Until it has been disposed of, we cannot entertain the idea of establishing a general hospital in London; and until that is done we do not think there would be any sufficient advantage in disturbing the present medical arrangements. I do not in the least wish to commit myself, or my Successors in the War Office, on this point, neither do I wish to preclude them from any course they may in future deem desirable. On this subject Lord Morley's Committee were unanimous. [Lord EUSTACE CECIL: Not unanimous.] The noble Lord is mistaken. Major General Hawley sent in a Paper, in which he objected to the decision of the majority that the present unification system should be maintained without modification; but that objection did not extend to the paragraph in the Committee's Report, which proposed that the medical system of the Guards should be amalgamated with that of the Army. It is not worth while arguing that point over now; and all I will say is that I do not wish to preclude either myself or my Successors from adopting, when circumstances make it desirable, what I believe to be the unanimous recommendation of the Committee. We do not, however, think that that recommendation could be carried into effect without full knowledge, and until it could be accompanied by a proposal for the formation of a general hospital in London; and therefore, until 1402 that scheme can be entertained, it would not be worth while to make any considerable change in the medical system of the Guards, which at present does, undoubtedly, give great satisfaction to the Army.
COLONEL MILNE-HOMEsaid, he was sure it would give great pleasure to the medical officers of both the Guards and the Household Cavalry to hear that at present there would be no change made in the admirable system which had now existed for so many years; and he did not think he should have risen had he not thought it right, considering the part he had taken in the Egyptian Campaign, to pay his tribute of thanks to his noble Friend for what he had been good enough to say with reference to the regimental medical officers at the front. He was sure that, although no honours had been given them, amongst the many honours that had been flying about after the campaign, they would feel amply repaid by the remarks which the noble Marquess had made with reference to their services. In respect to those officers, he thought he ought to notice an error which had crept into the Report now before the Committee. In paragraph 120 it was stated that the Life Guards embarked on the Calabria without any supply of drugs, plaisters, or other medical paraphernalia; but, on inquiry, it was found that that was not the case. But the statement would have been quite true if it had been made with regard to the Holland, which took out the troops he had the honour to command. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer were present, he would support him when he stated that the Holland sailed without the necessary medical paraphernalia, although, just as she left the Docks, an order having been got from the Secretary of State for War, a case of medicines was put on board. She also sailed without any Army Hospital men whatever; and it was only because she touched at Cowes that those men were able to go on board. The statement was, therefore, true as to the Holland, though not as to the Calabria. But when the case was opened at sea the medicines were found to be utterly useless, because they did not include anything that was applicable for ordinary medical work. He should also like to say, with reference to the regimental 1403 officer who accompanied those troops on board the Holland, that he applied, before they started, to the Army Medical Department to know whether he was to make any request for medical stores for the campaign. He was told that he would find everything when he got to Alexandria; but when he arrived there he found nothing. It was the same at Ismailia; and the result was that the expedition, which started at cock-crow about the 28th of August from Ismailia, started with nothing but one field-companion, although the officer had been told that he would find everything he wanted there and at Alexandria before he started with the expedition. Some severe things had boon said in the evidence before Lord Morley's Committee with reference to the senior medical officer of the regiment to which he himself belonged—namely, Surgeon Major Hughes Pryse at Messana. The reason, for what had been stated was that that officer declined to abide by the rules of red tape which governed the Surgeon General in command at Ismailia, and improvised a hospital at Messana, which had done exceedingly good work, as would be seen by reference to the evidence of General Sir Drury Lowe. He thought it only fair that some tribute should be paid to that officer for the excellent work he did at Messana. He effected cures, and gave relief to unfortunate sufferers, who would not have been attended to at all if he had acted according to the red-tapeism of the Department. With all due respect and deference to the noble Marquess, he felt that the noble Marquess had, perhaps, done all he could to acquiesce in the opinions expressed by his hon. Friend below him (Mr. Guy Dawnay) and by Lord Morley's Committee. He began by stating that there had been no breakdown in the Medical Department in Egypt at all, although he had acknowledged that at Cairo there had been some inconvenience and failure, which, however, were amply accounted for. Then he went on to detract from the military evidence which had been adduced by his hon. Friend below him; but he would remind the Committee what that evidence was. The noble Marquess had only quoted the evidence of a certain colonel of Infantry; but his hon. Friend had adduced the evidence of the Duke of Cambridge and of 1404 the Commander-in-Chief in Egypt, Lord Wolseley. The Duke of Cambridge's evidence was rather in favour of the regimental system; but he would not quote it, because his hon. Friend had done so, although the noble Marquess had scolded his hon. Friend for not bringing more evidence forward. But the Duke of Cambridge's evidence was entirely in favour of his hon. Friend's contention; and as to Lord Wolseley's evidence, he should like to road to the Committee two answers which he gave to Lord Morley's Committee, inasmuch as the noble Marquess might like to hear them again. His Lordship said—
My orders were, if you cannot get good bread go out in the town and buy it. That is my complaint from the first day to the last day. The great complaint against the doctors was that they did not do everything that they could have done. I said to them, if you do not get anything that you can possibly want for your men go out into the town and buy it, no matter what you pay for it. I will pay you back; but they would not do it; they always went back to the Commissary, and that is what I complain about.The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Dr. Farquharson) had said that if the officers had paid for these comforts they would not get their money back; yet here was Lord Wolseley saying- that he would pay them back. Then, in the following page, Lord Wolseley said: —I then said to the doctor, 'Is it possible that up to this moment, although we have been five weeks in Cairo, not a man in your hospital has ever had a pudding or anything baked for him, or anything made for him, except what you can boil in a soldier's kettle?' And he said—'Yes; we have had nothing more.' I said—'It is very hard upon the men, considering that you have been here five weeks, and you might have bought any quantity of stores. If you had asked me for £1,000 for them. I would have authorized you to buy them; and yet you tell me now, at the end of five weeks, that you are still cooking for the hospital in those large trenches. In an hospital where there is an immense number of sick, and through which an immense number of sick are passing, you are now cooking for your sick patients in exactly the same way as soldiers out in a campaign would cook.'That was the evidence that the noble Marquess thought nothing of. The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire had alluded to the complaints that had been made by some of the regiments; and had said that amongst the Highlanders there were no complaints. Since the hon. Member made that statement he had not been able to examine the Blue Book on that 1405 point; but possibly the Highlanders might have been better attended to on a particular day than the Life Guards or the Blues. His hon. Friend below him (Mr. Guy Dawnay) had remarked that some soldiers were rather backward in making complaints, thinking it might do them harm afterwards; and, as a matter of fact, soldiers and officers in general could not be got to state their grievances unless forced to do so. He knew well, from experience in his own regiment, that it was only when great pressure had been brought to bear upon them, that they could be induced to state their experiences at Ismailia and elsewhere; but, it having been pointed out to them that it was not for their own benefit, but for the benefit of the whole Service in future, they were induced to come forward and state exactly what had happened to them at those places. His hon. Friend had likewise alluded to the complaint that there was no carbolic oil in the hospitals. He believed he said it was too bulky to carry; but Surgeon Pelly stated, in his evidence, that he would gladly have done without carbolic oil if he could have obtained some carbolic acid, which would have answered the purpose as well. Then as to the cost of the oil. He was sorry to have to allude to these small items, but his hon. Friend had referred to them; and although carbolic oil was, no doubt, a very bulky article, it was about the most useful that could be at hand in such a climate, and under such circumstances. Surgeon Pelly was asked—Are you averse from the carbolic oil being used in the field owing to its great bulk?And the reply was—I think it beneficial to have a small quantity for cases in which it is especially useful. I gathered from persons in the country that it was very useful.From that he (Colonel Milne-Home) inferred that it was desirable to have some quantity of it, however bulky it might be. He had made these few observations because it seemed to him that he could not help rising to acknowledge the manner in which his hon. Friend had spoken of these regimental doctors; and to express his surprise, after the evidence which had been taken with reference to the excellent way in which their duties were performed, that they should have received absolutely nothing but general thanks. But he was further surprised that they were not to have a greater 1406 continuance of the regimental system in the Service. He agreed that it was necessary that young doctors should be found to learn their profession, and also that there should be depôts from which the men could be supplied to furnish surgeons for the Service. It seemed to him that a compromise might be effected here. It was requisite for the benefit of all regiments, especially a regiment on long service, that doctors should be appointed to them who might become acquainted with the men and their wives and families; but he did not see why they could not have from the depôts or stations assistant surgeons, who might come as apprentices as it were, and be drafted from regiment to regiment and station to station as occasion might require. The noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War had brought in regulations permitting long service, under certain circumstances, in the Household Cavalry and regiments of the Line in future; and, therefore, he thought that surgeons might be attached to regiments as regimental officers, in order that they might become thoroughly acquainted with the married men and their families, and look after them as family doctors. That regimental system in the Household Cavalry had worked very satisfactorily; and he trusted he should never see the day when their sick soldiers would be removed to a general hospital in London, over which their officers could have no control. At present the Household Cavalry had their own regimental hospitals; the officers could visit that hospital, and look after the patients there, and see that they were cared for; but if the sick were sent to a general hospital in London that necessary and desirable supervision could not take place. Again, if they were to make that hospital into a sort of school, where medical officers from the rest of the Service were to be sent, it appeared to him that that would be degrading the position of medical officers in the Army.
§ MAJOR GENERAL ALEXANDERsaid, he did not intend to take up the time of the Committee, except for the purpose of thanking the noble Marquess for the concessions he had made, and to add that the medical officers of the Guards would be grateful for his not abolishing a system which had worked well. With reference to the speech of the hon. 1407 Member for the North Riding (Mr. Guy Dawnay), the noble Marquess had, in his reply, apparently forgotten that the hon. Gentleman had quoted Lord Wolseley in support of his allegation. He begged to remind the noble Marquess that Lord Wolseley said that one of the greatest evils with which they had to contend under the Departmental system was the system of malingering; that it could not exist under the regimental system, because every medical officer under that system knew his own men, and could, therefore, baffle any attempt at deception.
§ Vote agreed to.
§
(4.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £524,000, lie granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Pay and Allowances of a Force of Militia, not exceeding 136,806, including 30,000 Militia Reserve, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1885.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, in former years he had had occasion to call the attention of the Secretary of State for War to a vital point connected with the annual training of the Militia, which his experience, and the experience of the officers of the Militia, had shown to be absolutely unsatisfactory and useless. He referred to the money which was devoted to the annual training of the Militia in musketry. He had received repeated assurances from the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War and his Predecessors in Office that this point would be attended to. On his moving the reduction of this Vote on a former occasion by the sum of £20,000, which represented the money spent in the annual training of the Militia, the noble Marquess acknowledged that the question raised was one deserving of attention, and had pressed him not to divide the Committee on the Motion, giving him the assurance that before that time next year he would ascertain the opinion of the military authorities with regard to the question. He admitted that that was a sufficiently vague assurance; but he would like to hear from the noble Marquess whether the subject had met with that attention which it seemed to him to require from the Department? Nothing could be more vital to the efficiency of the soldier than that he should be able to shoot, 1408 except, perhaps, that he should be able to march; but the fact was that the present period of Militia training did not admit of anything like effective musketry instruction being given to the Militia. On former occasions suggestions had been made for the consideration of the Secretary of State for War, and three alternative courses were proposed. The first was, that the musketry training of disembodied Militia should be discontinued altogether; that the authorities should be content that the Militiaman should be taught to march and handle his arms, and not attempt to shoot. That, at least, would have the advantage of saving to the country £20,000 a-year, which, it was his impression, was absolutely wasted at the present time. The second course was that alternate trainings should be devoted to field exercise and to musketry instruction; and the third was that the Militia regiments should be had up in companies during the training-period, and instructed in musketry at headquarters. He was sure that the noble Marquess would not expect him to enter into details, which he had already frequently stated in that House, as to the inconsistency and unsatisfactory nature of the present system of training. Anyone acquainted with musketry instruction would know that it was, above all others, that kind of instruction which had to be carried on deliberately, and with the greatest possible nicety, and with careful consideration of wind and weather. All that was absolutely impossible in the limited period of 27 days, which was all that was allowed to the Militia. But the noble Marquess had assured him that, in accordance with the recommendation of the Committee appointed to consider the question of musketry instruction in the Service, more ammunition would be given to the Militia. What did that mean? It meant that their task was to be made more difficult; that whereas it was difficult for each man to fire away 40 rounds, which was the old allowance, in a very short time, it was now proposed to improve the instruction given by making him fire away 60 rounds in the same time. Why, that arrangement only complicated and aggravated the difficulty; and he was so convinced that the present system of musketry instruction in the Militia was loss of time, loss of money, and loss of energy, that he 1409 now proposed the reduction of the Vote by the sum of £20,000, the cost of ammunition expended annually by the Militia.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £504,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Pay and Allowances of a Force of Militia, not exceeding 136,806, including 30,000 Militia Reserve, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the Slat day of March 1885."—(Sir Herbert Maxwell.)
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, the subject brought before the Committee last year by the hon. and gallant Member had been considered by the military authorities, whose duty it was to superintend the training of the Militia, and the Regulations for musketry instruction to that Force had been totally revised, and a new General Order had been issued. That Order was dated the 17th of April, 1884, and he was not sure whether it was generally known as yet; at any rate, he thought it could not have been known to the hon. and gallant Member, because he made no reference to it in his observations. The main feature of the Order was that no firing was required of the Militia beyond 300 yards, and this it was thought would so simplify matters as to enable every regiment to undergo instruction either by battalions or half-battalions. Hitherto the Regulations had been based upon practice at 600 yards, which, as had been explained by the hon. and gallant Member, greatly complicated the course of instruction, and which it was impossible for the regiment to undergo thoroughly in a short space of time. The Committee would perceive that by the revised Regulations a great deal of unnecessary complication had been done away with. Although it was impossible for him to say how far those revised Regulations would be successful for the object in view, he believed the Committee would see that he had not neglected the promise given to the hon. and gallant Member last year; that he had called the attention of the military authorities to this question, and that they had endeavoured so to simplify and reduce the theoretical requirements of the old Militia Regulations as to enable a course of musketry instruction to be gone through much more satisfactorily within a limited time. Without expressing any 1410 opinion as to how far the changes would meet the object in view, he might say that, at all events, they went in the direction of the hon. and gallant Member's wishes.
EARL PERCYsaid, he was afraid that the answer of the noble Marquess would not be entirely satisfactory to his hon. and gallant Friend, because the new Rules did not make any considerable change in the system hitherto obtaining. The main difficulty was the reduction of the distance at which the Militia might shoot. The practice of striking off half-battalions in alternate years had long been in operation; and the now Rule, which laid down that two companies were to be struck off at the beginning of the training, would have the effect of reducing the other drill of the regiment almost to a dead-lock, because they would have men who had become, so to speak, rusty by a year's absence, drilling with men in the middle of their training—they would have men of all degrees of efficiency mixed up together. It had always been the practice not to strike off companies until they had had a certain amount of drill, and that he thought was better than the system now proposed. A good deal of un-necessary expenditure had been caused by the system of drilling recruits on enlistment. It was evident that, where there were few recruits at the depôt, the expenses attendant upon musketry instruction were thereby very much increased. He knew of a case where a Militia regiment had three recruits at headquarters, of whom one bought his discharge and another deserted, the result being that the remaining recruit had to be taken by rail a certain number of miles every day for musketry instruction, accompanied by a non-commissioned officer, buglers, and men, thereby causing a large and unnecessary expense to the country without any commensurate benefit resulting. He hoped the noble Marquess would not lose sight of the subject; and if his hon. and gallant Friend decided to take a Division on his Motion for the reduction of the Vote, he should feel it his duty to vote with him.
§ SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, he was not disposed to put the Committee to the trouble of a Division. He was aware that it was not possible to 1411 enter into all the details of the Regulations in Committee; but he trusted the noble Marquess would not forget that the assurances given to the Committee were far from meeting the case he had endeavoured to lay before him. He had been 20 years in the Militia, and never during that time, as far as he was aware, had any regiment been required to fire at a greater distance than 300 yards. The permanent Staff were required to fire at 600 yards; but not so the Militia. The now Rule, therefore, meant nothing at all, and the other details which the noble Marquess had mentioned were simply matters of regimental arrangement. However, he presumed he must be satisfied with having entered his protest against what seemed to him to be a lavish expenditure of public money, not only without adequate result, but with no result at all. He would ask leave to withdraw his Motion.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. CHESTER-MASTERdesired to make one or two remarks with reference to the withdrawal of the enlistment money, which the Committee would remember was taken away on the 1st of September last year. This was done, as hon. Members would probably be aware, because so many Militia recruits did not turn up at the time of their training at the depôts or places where the regiment was called out. Formerly, the amount given on enlistment was 20s., which amount was some years ago reduced to 10s., and then taken away altogether. He wished to point out the difficulty resulting from that arrangement in agricultural and mining districts. Speaking from his own experience in an agricultural district of Gloucestershire, extending over 20 years, he believed he should be right in saying that recruiting sergeants personally knew the addresses to within 6 per cent of the recruits whom they enlisted in rural districts. Before the last reduction, he believed the absentees from his own regiment had never been more than 5 per cent. The orderly clerk of the regiment was instructed to make out a return of the recruits who came forward for enlistment, and the answers they gave between September 1, 1883, and March 1,1884. Until then the North Gloucestershire as well as the South Gloucestershire regiment had never been below 1412 its strength, except by a small number; but this year they had recruited only 53 men. On the 1st of September they required 198 recruits, and on the 1st of March they had only obtained 53, of whom 17 elected to drill at the depôt near Bristol, and 13 elected to go out with the recruits. The answers of 81 men were all to this effect—"We feel the benefit of 10s. in our hands," which in Gloucestershire was called "a dab in the fist;" and it meant that 10s. were worth more in the winter, when no work was to be got, than 20s. given at the end of the training. Their answer was, in fact—"No; we will not enlist, because we do not get anything on enlistment." The number of recruits in his regiment in former years had never fallen short of their number; but he had received a letter a few days ago to say that the regiment was more than 100 below its strength. He thought the noble Marquess should find some means of remedying this state of things. There was one other point to which he would like to draw the attention of the Committee, and it was this. The strength of the Militia was always taken from the day on which the inspecting officer inspected the regiment, and that was at the end of the training. He hoped he would not be accused of egotism if he again alluded to the Militia in his own locality. At the preliminary drill, or just before the preliminary drill commenced, in 1882 and 1883 the strength of the Gloucestershire regiment was, in 1882, 792 men, only eight below their strength; and in 1883 it was 799, being only one below its proper number; and yet, when the inspecting officer came at the end of the training, and sent in his return, their strength was, in 1882, only 680 men, and in 1883, 686 men. There were two or three reasons for this. In the first place, absentees from the regiment were not allowed to have their places filled up for three mouths; another reason was that men, temporarily discharged, were returned, on the strength of the regiment, but were not allowed to be counted as present at the inspection at the end of the training. Another reason was that all men who enlisted into the Regular Army could not have their places filled up before the inspection. Of course, he need hardly point out to the Committee that it was a feather in the cap of the Militia regiment who sent the greatest 1413 number of men from its ranks into the regiments of the Line. He was one of those who did his utmost to get men of his regiment to join the Regular Army; and he thought that, however much it might tell against the strength and the esprit de corps of the Militia, it was the duty of the colonels and officers of the Militia regiments to draft as many men as they could from their ranks to the Regular Forces. What, however, he should like to suggest, if the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War could possibly see his way to it, was this—that the Militia regiments should be allowed, at any time, to go on recruiting up to 10 per cent over their proper strength. As was well known, there were always some absentees; there were always a certain number of deserters; and there were always a certain number every year who enlisted into the Line; but when Militia regiments had recruited up to their full strength they were obliged to stop. He thought they ought to be allowed to recruit to the extent of 5 or 10 per cent over their strength. In that there would be no extra expense to the country; but Militia regiments would then have at the end of the training a far larger complement of men than they had at the present time. He had only spoken of the years 1882 and 1883, when the Gloucestershire regiment was in the one year 120 below its strength, and in the other year 117 below its strength, simply and solely for the reasons he had stated. In those years, until they had got a certain number of men struck off their rolls, they were unable to continue their recruiting. He had made these few observations in the hope that the noble Marquess might be able to do something to remedy this state of things.
EARL PERCYsaid, he was very glad the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chester-Master) had called attention to the subject of the withdrawal of the 10s. bounty for enlistment, and he hoped the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War would give the Committee some information as to its effect upon the recruiting. He (Earl Percy) did not think the effect had been at all satisfactory. He held in his hand a Return he moved for some time ago, and which had been laid on the Table of the House, though it had not as yet been printed. That Return gave the number of recruits enlisted between 1414 the 1st of October, 1883, which was the date when the Order was issued, and the 1st of March, 1884, and it compared that number with the number enlisted between the 1st of October, 1882, and the 1st of March, 1883. The result shown was that in England and in Scotland the Artillery and the Engineers had fallen off to a large extent. The Infantry in England had slightly decreased, and the Infantry in Scotland had increased. He did not take Ireland, because that country was under peculiar conditions. The decrease in all arms in England had been from 11,022 to 10,940; but in Scotland, on the other hand, there had been an increase from l,390 to 1,868. That might not bethought altogether to be an unsatisfactory result; but he would like to point out to the noble Marquess that when they came to look at which regiments had decreased, and which had increased, they found the increase was only in the case of a very few regiments, comparatively speaking. He found that 46 regiments in the United Kingdom had increased less, between the 1st of October, 1883, and the 1st of March, 1884, than they did in the preceding corresponding period. [An hon. MEMBER: In the rural districts.] Well, as that had been said, and as his hon. Friend who had just spoken stated that the rural districts were affected in this matter to a different extent to mining districts and populous places, he (Earl Percy) would like to quote his own personal experience. In spite of the fact that in the North of England the times were bad and many men were out of work, his regiment had recruited but few more recruits than they did last year, notwithstanding all the efforts made to obtain recruits. He believed, too, that there were many more absentees from the regiment than there were last year under the old system. He could not pretend to say whether, on the whole, the new system answered better in rural districts than in the more populous districts; but certainly, speaking from his own experience, the new system had worked very unsatisfactorily in populous places. There was another matter to which he wished to draw the attention of the Committee, and it was this. It had been alleged that the effect of the new system might be felt more strongly in regiments that were trained at a distance from their headquarters 1415 rather than in regiments which were trained at headquarters. He confessed that he had never been, able to follow that argument; and, looking at the facts, he found that of the 46 regiments whose numbers had decreased in the course of the last six months, 29 were trained at their headquarters, and 17 were trained away from headquarters. It really came to this—that of the regiments which had been detrimentally affected by the operation of the new system, considerably more than half were trained at headquarters. He was quite aware there were some advantages to be gained by the system of withholding bounties; but certainly, as far as he could see, the system had failed in its main object, which was to prevent absenteeism, which in some regiments was found to be a great and growing evil. In his own case, so far from preventing absenteeism, he had more absentees this year than last. He was quite sure that the only plan upon which to manage the bounty question was the plan foreshadowed by the hon. Gentleman, who had just spoken—namely, that of making a difference between one district and another, leaving it to the discretion of the officer commanding a district, whether a bounty should be given and what amount should be given on enlistment, or whether the whole of the bounty should be withheld until the recruit came up for annual training. He was certain they never could make a hard-and-fast rule that would suit all parts of the country. The Return to which he had previously alluded only referred to the period from October last to the 1st of March in the present year; and he knew it had been alleged that a large influx of recruits had been effected just before the preliminary drill, that, in fact, there would be a larger number of recruits in future than there had been in former years. He had not found that to be so in the case of his own regiment; and he trusted the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War would be able to give some reassuring information to the Committee on this subject.
§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDONwished to draw the attention of the Committee and the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War to what appeared to him to be a very unsatisfactory state of the Militia, both with regard to officers and 1416 men, at the present time. He would first deal with the case of the officers. He found by the last Return that there were no less than 648 wanting. He found that in 1880 there were only 307 officers wanting to complete the Establishment, so that now the number wanting was more than double what it was in that year. He should be glad if the noble Marquess could suggest a reason for this state of things. He wished to refer the Committee to a Return that was laid before the House a short time ago with regard to the number of appointments to and the number of retirements from the Militia. From that Return he found that in the course of the five years ending March, 1884, no less than 2,471 officers were appointed to the Militia, and that in the same period no less than 2,488 officers had left the Militia. Now, the total number of officers being 2,941, that showed that nearly the whole of the Militia Force were renewed every five years. It was a very curious state of things that the Militia officers should be renewed every five or five and a-half years; and the reason of it, as it appeared to him, was that the Militia was officered, as far as regarded the junior officers, on an entirely false basis. Young men were appointed to the Militia, not for the purpose of serving in the Militia permanently, but merely as a means of entering the Regular Army by the commissions which they obtained. Young men were appointed to the Militia, but remained in it only just as long as was necessary to fit them for the Army, and if they failed to get into the Army they left the Militia. Now-a-days, as a matter of fact, gentlemen merely joined the Militia as a stepping-stone to the Army. Now, that could not be a sound or workable system. He should like the noble Marquess to explain why there had been such variation in the number of commissions given to the Militia for the Army. In 1881 the number was the same as Lord Cardwell fixed it at. Sixty commissions were given to the officers of the Militia for the Army every half-year. Young men joined the Militia with the expectation of obtaining a commission in the Army; they knew there were a number of vacancies, and they took their chance of getting one of them. But in 1881 the commissions for the Army were reduced exactly 1417 one-half, and that caused a large number of young men to be disappointed. In March, 1882, the commissions were kept at one-half—namely, 30 every half-year; but in September, 1882, they were raised to 40 every half-year. In September of the following year they were increased to 70 in the half-year; and now this year they understood they were to be increased to 81 every half-year. Great injustice had already been done. Young men entered the Militia with the expectation of gaining an entrance to the Army; but the number of commissions given to them had been reduced, although subsequently they were raised to their original number, and now they were to be increased beyond that number. The uncertainty as to the number of commissions to be given had caused great hardship, and it was very desirable that there should be more regularity in the number of commissions given. Now, with regard to the men, he found by the last Return that no less than 42,745 men left the Militia every year. The total rank and file enrolled was only 99,440; therefore, nearly one-half of the Militia rank and file left last year. That, also, seemed to be a very singular state of things. The recruits last year were nearly 36,000, so that there was a deficiency of 6,000. The Militia would appear to be renewed every two years, so far as the rank and file were concerned. Now, if the Militia was to be really efficient in time of war that was a very alarming state of things. He wished also to point out that no less than 11,330 men deserted or were struck off the rolls of the Militia last year. He hoped the noble Marquess would be able to give some satisfactory explanation of these figures, because they led to the belief that the Militia was not in that satisfactory state that could be wished.
§ SIR ROBERT CUNLIFFEsaid, he should like the noble Marquess to give his careful consideration to some points which had recently been put before him. He (Sir Robert Cunliffe) entirely agreed with what fell from the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Chester-Master) as to the present condition of recruiting in the Militia. His own experience as a Colonel of 10 or 12 years' standing was that in consequence of the change in respect of bounty, Militia regiments did not re- 1418 cruit men as well as they formerly did. His own regiment was 220 men below its strength. The district was a purely mining and rural one, and the regiment was trained at headquarters; therefore, none of these special reasons assigned for the lack of recruits could be cited in his case. Some years ago his regiment was scarcely below its strength. He entirely agreed with what had been said with regard to the officers of the Militia. He thought those Gentleman who, like himself, had had a large experience in the Militia would agree that the present condition of things was not what they would desire. Anyone who had had charge of a regiment must feel that it was very desirable that there should be more stability in the elements of which officers were composed. His hon. and gallant Friend (Sir Alexander Gordon) had stated that a considerable number of young men simply joined the Militia for the sake of passing into the Line. Under present circumstances, it was only natural they should do so; but looking at the importance of the Militia, and to the work which could be got out of the Militia if required, it seemed to him (Sir Robert Cunliffe) that the members of the permanent Staff of the Militia ought to be obtained on a principle which would secure more stability than there was at present. The Committee would agree with him that if the officers of the permanent Staff knew their work and did it, they could obtain wonderful results from a Militia regiment in the course of the annual training. It was impossible to find a more willing or a more easily managed set of men than Militiamen; and if they were properly handled and looked after, grand results could be obtained. Under a system by which the officers of a regiment were constantly being changed it was impossible to get such good results as they might otherwise expect. It appeared to him that these were circumstances which deserved to have the serious consideration of the War Office. He had felt it his duty to bear his testimony to the fact that the defects which had been pointed out existed; and he hoped the noble Marquess would be able to look into the question, and that possibly before another year would make some Regulation which might be of service.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked for a little information with regard to a point which appeared on the surface of the Votes. On page 35 he found that for bounty and expenses of enrolment there was almost a similar sum charged this year as last; last year the sum was £198,000, and this year it was £203,000. On page 37 he found there was a considerable change from the Vote which was submitted last year. The item for "levy money, attestation and medical fees, &c., on enrolment or re-enrolment," was, last year, £39,500. This year that item had sunk to the comparatively small sum of £9,000; whereas the item for "bounty payable on termination of training and on re-enrolment," had gone up from £128,500 to £164,000. Now, he presumed that that alteration in the figures was but a reflection of a very considerable alteration in the policy that had to be pursued with regard to the enlistment of Militiamen. He had waited for some time to hear any remarks which might throw light on that portion of the Vote; and he had no doubt the noble Marquess would have some clear explanation to offer. He assumed that the change had been brought about in order to secure a better attendance at training; and, under that impression, he sought for the figures which would show the payment made for provisions, and he was rather astonished to find that, whereas last year the amount was £299,400, this year it had sunk to £270,000, so that this theory which looked for increased attendance as an explanation for the change was hardly borne out by the charge for provisions.
§ MAJOR GENERAL ALEXANDERsaid, that, before the Vote was put, he wished to remind the Committee that, in 1881, certain provisions were made by the Predecessor of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War for the retirement of commanding officers of Militia' on account of age, and it was provided: that no commanding officer of Militia should serve after the age of 65, except in certain cases, where they might serve up to 67. He found, upon inquiry, that that Rule had never been made applicable to the Channel Islands Militia, over which the War Office, he understood, had no authority at all, that Militia being under the supervision and the control of the Go- 1420 vernor. Under the circumstances, there was no means of ascertaining the ages of the officers; and it was suggested to him that, as at least one of the officers was verging upon 70, he (Major General Alexander) should move for a Return of the names and ages of the officers commanding the Channel Islands Militia. That Return the noble Marquess was good enough to give him as an unopposed Return, but 'it had not yet been presented to the House, and he was, therefore, unable to act upon it upon the present occasion; but should he find, when it was printed, that there were officers in the Channel Islands Militia who were 70 years of age, or were approaching the age of 70, he begged leave to give Notice that next year, either in this Parliament or the next Parliament, he should move the reduction of the Vote by the amount required for the Channel Islands Militia.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, that with regard to the observations of the hon. Member for Cirencester (Mr. Chester-Master), it was the fact that Militia regiments were, under the present system, allowed, in certain circumstances, to recruit above their strength. As to the distinction which had been recommended between Militia regiments in agricultural and urban districts, he was afraid it would be undesirable, if not impossible, to make any such distinction. The Inspector General of Recruiting had said in his Report—
As stated last year, there was strong objection urged against the existence of two different systems of enlisting recruits working side by side, one under which recruits of a brigade or battalion were receiving 10s. on enlistment, the other under which they were receiving no bounty on enlistment.The distinction between the two systems of giving bounties had been abolished, because it was found to have a prejudicial effect upon the regiments which were at the headquarters at the regimental depôts; and he was afraid that exactly the same unfair result would be caused if distinctions were attempted to be drawn between regiments maintained in agricultural districts and those which were maintained in urban districts. The noble Earl (Earl Percy) had referred to the effect of the change which had been made in the matter of the preliminary drill, and that was also adverted to in 1421 the Report of the Inspector General, who said—It was naturally to be expected that in the detached battalions, where 10s. on enlistment had hitherto been given, and where the recruits had not the facility of drilling at the headquarters on enlistment, there would be a considerable falling off in the winter in consequence of this alteration. This has been the case, but the effect of the change can hardly he estimated fairly until after the coming training. Now that dates for the preliminary drill have been fixed and announced, those who are desirous of doing their preliminary drill and training together will come up at that time.The Inspector General was writing on the 28th of February; but now the dates of the preliminary drills had been fixed and announced. Since the beginning of the year the flow of men had been regular; and all that could now be said was that the effect of the change, which, as had been observed, could hardly be estimated as yet, should be very carefully watched, and if it was found necessary to make any further alteration, then they would have to consider what was to be done. Of the 32,049 troops which were raised last year, 19,434 were raised to be drilled on enlistment, and 12,615 were raised by brigades and battalions which were not drilled on enlistment; and he understood that out of every 800 men 600 elected to go through the preliminary drill on enlistment. The system appeared to be popular; and though it might suffer until it was thoroughly known, he did not think there was any reason to anticipate that it would suffer on the whole. So far as absentees were concerned, the new system appeared to be working well, and the percentage of absentees under the new system compared very favourably with the percentage of absentees under the old system. He did not think it was possible to go back, because if a 10s. bounty were given to a Militia recruit, no recruit would join the Army without going to the Militia first. The hon. and gallant Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir Alexander Gordon) had referred to the number of commissions in the Line given to Militia officers. That was a complaint of long standing; but he had not heard either the hon. and gallant Gentleman himself, nor any other Member who had addressed the Committee, make any practical suggestion for a change. It appeared to him (the 1422 Marquess of Hartington) that there was every reason for satisfaction, for, after all, the Militia was not a profession; and it was almost a matter of surprise to him that so many gentlemen should be found who were willing to devote a portion of their time to military duties of that nature, which must, to a very considerable extent, interfere with their other occupations. The hon. and gallant Gentleman complained of the system of passing from the Militia into the Line; but that he (the Marquess of Hartington) conceived to be a very great inducement to gentlemen to accept commissions in the Militia; and, if any change were made, it would not diminish, but would rather increase, the difficulty of finding officers to join the Militia. The hon. and gallant Gentleman referred to the large number of commissions in the Line recently given to Militia officers; but he (the Marquess of Hartington) endeavoured to explain, when he made his Statement in introducing the Estimates, what were the reasons which had made that necessary. A diminution in the number of commissions granted was made at a time when a considerable reduction in the number of regimental officers had been made, and when it was believed that fewer numbers would be required in future. But owing to causes which were then unforeseen—namely, that a great number of officers had accepted the terms of retirement which were now open to them—the number of vacancies in the Line had been much larger than was anticipated; and as Sandhurst could only supply a certain number of officers, there was no alternative but to accept a larger number of gentlemen who had served in the Militia, and who proved on examination to be qualified for commissions in the Line. Of course, it would be the object of the authorities, as soon as it was possible for them to ascertain what was the normal number of commissions in the Army likely to be required, to endeavour so to adjust the number of cadets at Sandhurst and the number of commissions offered to officers in the Militia as to provide that the number might be as established, and as little fluctuating as possible. With regard to the number of desertions from, the Militia last year—no less than 11,330—the largeness of that number 1423 was due to the large number of desertions from the Irish regiments, owing to the suspension of the training of the Irish Militia for three years. During that period of suspension there had been no means of knowing how many men had left the Force; and, therefore, against last year were placed the whole of the arrears for three years. Of course, in some cases the men had died, and the number, therefore, of desertions was uncertain; but the whole number of men unaccounted for were put down for last year.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORThey are not all real desertions, then?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, they were not; but the number covered all the men who during the last three years should have appeared on the roll, and whose disappearance could not be officially accounted for. The hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. A. O'Connor) had referred to some figures in the Estimate. He (the Marquess of Hartington) did not think he was quite able to follow the hon. Gentleman's observations; but the discrepancies which the hon. Gentleman had pointed out appeared to him to be due to the change in the system of enrolment, to which he had already referred, through the abolition of the 10s. bounty on enrolment. If the hon. Gentleman would take the sum of the three columns included under the head E, on page 37, he would see that the total amount for the present year was £203,000, as against £198,000 for last year. The items were differently distributed in consequence of the change, and the sum taken for levy-money and attestation and medical fees on enrolment appeared to be greatly reduced, while the sum paid afterwards appeared as a portion of the increase. He was, however, very glad that the hon. Gentleman had called attention to this matter.
§ COLONEL COLTHURSTsaid, there was one matter which had been referred to by the noble Earl the Member for North Northumberland (Earl Percy) with respect to the position of those officers who, being adjutants of Militia or Volunteers, had failed to qualify for the Army. He (Colonel Colthurst) hoped that matter would be taken into consideration, for it was of great importance to the officers themselves and to 1424 the discipline of the regiments. He did not know whether the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War would be able to say whether any relaxation of the arrangements could be made on behalf of those officers. It would be well if the noble Marquess would look into the examination for the rank of captain. A certain standard was now laid down with a certain number of subjects, and the minimum number of marks required in each subject. An officer might pass in each subject, and might then find that, although he had so passed and qualified in each subject, he yet had not passed the examination, owing to the aggregate of efficiency being greater than the number of marks required in each subject would reach.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, this question did not really arise on the present Vote. The noble Earl was, however, going to call attention to the subject, and there would be an opportunity for making a statement upon it when it came on.
§ MR. BIGGARwished to draw attention to a matter which related to the Antrim Militia. Some years ago there was some very loose conduct in that regiment, and a party of officers went into an hotel where another officer was staying and wrecked his room. He (Mr. Biggar) was informed last year, but never heard it until then, that one of the officers 'who was concerned in that attack—Major Johnson—based his defence before the Adjutant General in Dublin upon very different material to that on which he had based his defence to the War Office. When he was applied to by the War Office on the subject, Major Johnson denied point-blank that he had anything to do with the transaction; but that was not the ground which he (Mr. Biggar) understood him to have put forward before the Adjutant General. He could not, of course, ask the noble Marquess to discuss Major Johnson, because the noble Marquess had as yet only heard his (Mr. Biggar's) ex parte statement, and he (Mr. Biggar) only spoke from hearsay; but he thought that this was a matter in which the noble Marquess might undertake to make inquiry into the merits of the case. He did not think that the Statute of Limitations ought to run in a case of this sort. If Major Johnson had made a 1425 a statement of facts to the War Office or to the Adjutant General in Dublin last year relating to transactions which took place some years ago, there was no reason why he should now be let off because of the remoteness of those transactions. Still, under the circumstances, he (Mr. Biggar) could not ask the noble Marquess to do more than to make an inquiry; and if, after inquiry, it was found that there was any ground for the charge, then no doubt the noble Marquess would deal with the whole matter as it deserved. He (Mr. Biggar) had on previous occasions drawn attention to two cases which had occurred in this same regiment, and in both of those cases it was found that there were grounds for investigation. In one of them the colonel of the regiment retired rather than face the charges made; and in the other case, in which he (Mr. Biggar) drew the attention of the noble Marquess to the conduct of the adjutant, that officer was dismissed by the noble Marquess for the conduct complained of. Therefore, up to the present time, he (Mr. Biggar) had succeeded in making good the charge he raised as to the conduct of these officers; and all he asked in the case of Major Johnson was that the noble Marquess should undertake to make inquiries. He thought he was entitled to ask that from the noble Marquess.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, it was perfectly true that, in consequence of some charge being made by the hon. Member for Cavan on a previous occasion, an inquiry was instituted by the War Office into the conduct of the adjutant of the Antrim Militia respecting some Returns. It was found, he regretted to say, that incorrect Returns had been made by the officer in question, and the result was that that officer was removed from his appointment. As to the case of Major Johnson, he really could not undertake to make any inquiry into it. It was said to have occurred 11 years ago, and he believed that Major Johnson's presence on the occasion was altogether denied. He believed that some time ago there was a good deal of practical joking in the regiment of the kind that had been referred to; but the officer who commanded the regiment then did not command it now, and he had no reason to believe that anything 1426 of the sort had taken place for a great number of years. No good purpose whatever would be served by entering upon an inquiry. If inquiry ought to have been made at all, it should have been made at the time.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, the matter was this Major Johnson was charged with having made one statement to the Adjutant General in Dublin, and quite a different one to the War Office. That was a much more serious matter than a practical joke occurring 10 or 11 years ago. Possibly, so far as the practical joke alone was concerned, the noble Marquess was not far wrong in saying that the Statute of Limitations ought to be allowed to run; but the other matter was much more serious, and perhaps upon that part of the case the noble Marquess would undertake to make some inquiry?
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§
(5.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £69,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Yeomanry Cavalry Pay and Allowances, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1885.
§ COLONEL O'BEIRNE moved that the Vote be reduced by the sum of £8,000—the sum which the Irish taxpayers had to contribute towards the support of the Yeomanry. He did not think it was just that they should be called on to support English Yeomanry, in which they were not concerned in any manner, directly or indirectly. Ireland was not allowed to have Volunteers of her own, and yet was called upon to contribute to the Volunteers of Great Britain; and that was unfair. Another reason why he objected to the Vote was that at the present moment some regiments of the Regular Cavalry of the Line were not fit to go upon active service in a campaign. They were utterly inefficient and useless for any military purpose whatever; and that was not a proper state of things. Before any money was granted for the Reserve forces, the first necessity was to put the Regular Cavalry of the Line into a really efficient condition, so that at least a certain portion of the regiments could be called on for a campaign. In the early part of the century the Yeomanry, Cavalry, and Volunteers were 1427 sent upon a campaign, and took part in the Peninsular War, and they did good service, and were mentioned by the Duke of Wellington in his despatches. If that were the state of things now he would admit that there would be good reason for the Vote; but the Yeomanry regiments that were now in existence certainly were never called upon to go on any foreign service whatever. He believed they were very good horsemen, and very intelligent men; but for military purposes they were of no use, and, therefore, such Votes as this were quite superfluous.
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he hoped the hon. and gallant Gentleman would not persist in his intention to move the reduction of the Vote, but would rather join forces with him (Mr. Labouchcre) and take a Division against the whole of this outlay of £69,000. When these Army Estimates were voted, every year, these discussions always took place; and instead of any protest being made against the way in which the Estimates went on increasing year by year, military men got up to ask that more money should be spent. He knew they always explained that in some particular item they would be ready to cast off a halfpenny; but they generally finished by wanting a much larger expenditure somewhere else. He knew them of old. He had the greatest respect for the common sense of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War when he was not trammelled by officialism; and he would ask him to tell the Committee of what real use this Yeomanry Force was. They were called out for eight days in the year; but everybody know that it required much more than eight days in a year to make either a Cavalry soldier or a Cavalry horse. He had asked an hon. Friend of his who sat on the other side of the House of what use was this Yeomanry Force, and what reason could be given for maintaining such an absurdity; and the reply he received was—"Well, you see, if a foreign Army were to come here, the Yeomanry would be useful in this way: they are recruited from the farmers, who know the country, and who know how to ride, and they would be able to show the way to the English General;"—but whether it was to retreat or to advance he did not know. They were asked, then, to spend £69,000 a-year for that. The gentleman whom he questioned on the subject belonged 1428 to a Midland county, where it was exceedingly improbable that any foreign Army would come; and he did not think there was much necessity for anybody to show an English General the road he wanted to go. At all events, they need not spend £69,000 a-year for such a purpose as that. In this case, as in many others, it was the poor man who suffered for the rich man's benefit. Each year the Vote grew more and more; the permanent Staff had increased; and of the 35 troops of which the Yeomanry Cavalry Force consisted each troop of 265 men had 18 officers. [An hon. MEMBER: Each regiment.] They might call it a regiment if they liked—they might even call each troop an army; but what he wanted to call attention to was that in a really genuine bonâ fide regiment where there were 550 men there were only 24 officers, so that a Yeomanry regiment had proportionately more officers than any of the Cavalry regiments of the Line. Were they really to take a serious view of these things, or were they to go on with this wasteful expenditure? Unless some case could be made out in favour of the Yeomanry they ought to do away with it, once for all. How was it managed? They knew there were a certain number of people who liked to swagger about with feathers and a sword by their side, and who came out on the horses which they had been hunting with to have eight days' drill and a Yeomanry ball, or something of that sort. That was the whole story. There was no sort of use in these relics of inedisevalism—of a past age—and he wanted some one to tell him what quid pro quo they got for this £69,000 a-year?
§ MR. C. T. D. ACLAND, as an officer interested in the Yeomanry Force, was not prepared to say that they were of any more use than the Volunteers; indeed, he would not for a moment say that they were of so much use, because he quite admitted that farmers could not be got to devote so much time to acquiring military drill efficiently as tradesmen, to whom it was a positive recreation to come out and learn their drill. The hon. Member who had just sat down had, however, said that the Yeomanry were of no use at all, because they were never called on foreign service. It was true they were not so called on; but that was because we were never attacked by any foreign Army. It might 1429 just as well be said that the Volunteers were of no use; but not a single Member would agree with such an observation if it were made. If the Volunteers were of any use, he maintained that the Yeomanry in their sphere were of equal use. If an Infantry Volunteer could be made into an efficient Infantry soldier, so a good man and horse could be made useful in the same way and turned into a good Cavalry soldier. He would ask the hon. Member for Northampton to go and witness the Yeomanry Cavalry when they were at drill; and he would point out to him that those who were best qualified to judge as to the ability of the Yeomanry Reserve—the Inspectors General of the Yeomanry Force—had constantly testified to the ability and efficiency of the Yeomanry men. Probably, the hon. Member was not aware of it; but during the past 10 years there had been an efficient school for training auxiliary officers of the Cavalry at Aldershot. Every officer of the regiment had to go through this auxiliary Cavalry school. They did all go through it; and he had no doubt that if the hon. Gentleman would attend the school in order to see the officers of the Yeomanry regiments go through their work, he would be perfectly satisfied as to their efficiency and their knowledge of what they had to do. The officers who belonged to regiments before that school was instituted made use of it. He (Mr. Acland) did not suppose anyone desired to see this Vote increased, and he knew very well there was a prejudice against it in some quarters; but, still, it would be admitted by most people that those in authority were doing their very best to get the Service to which they belonged brought into an efficient state. Many Yeomanry officers were prepared to admit that in bygone days it was anything but efficient, and that the description which had been given by the hon. Member would apply very well to the condition of things which existed 20 or 30 years ago. His description, however, did not apply to the existing state of affairs. The actual cost to the country for the Yeomanry was something like £4 a man; while that of the Infantry Volunteers was something like £2 6s. 8d. Now, in order to get the Yeomanry Force together it was necessary to pay for horses as well as for men. He only wished they could get more training out of the men 1430 than they did; but considering the circumstances, and the difficulty they experienced in getting the men to train at all, he was sorry to say he did not see how, without giving a very much larger allowance for horses, the country could get any more service at all out of the Force. He was sorry to see that apparently the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War had not been able to grant the Yeomanry what they were promised last year—namely, a small allowance for extra troop drill; because it was exceedingly difficult to get men to bring their horses away from the work of the farms—to bring them sometimes 10 or 20 miles for a day's drill—without some extra compensation. But, be that as it might, he did not know what the argument of the hon. Member for Northampton was founded on; and he trusted the Committee would think twice before it consented to anything in the nature of doing away with a Force which could be made much more efficient than it was, and which he did not believe necessitated an extravagant expenditure of public money.
§ MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he had asked a Question on the subject of the Yeomanry that day, and the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War had given him an answer which was not likely to be considered very satisfactory by the men of that Force. The hon. Member opposite (Mr. Acland) had alluded to the subject to which he was referring. A doubt seemed to be cast upon the fact whether any such promise as that alluded to had been made. Well, he was informed that a Memorial to the effect that additional grants would be made was last year sent to the different regiments; at any rate, there was no doubt in the world that the men had expected an increase. Another Question he had put had been as to the distance which entitled men to a day's pay in marching in. The distance was 20 miles; that was to say, if the men had to march in 20 miles they got an extra day's pay for it. But a new Memorial had been issued on the 4th of April this year, stating that the distance for which the day's pay would be granted would be increased from 20 to 30 miles. When they came to consider that this Force was not in any very great state of training at this period of the year, and that they would have to 1431 march 30 miles to their duty, which it would be admitted would give a horse a very hard week's work, or rather a hard nine days' work, as they were out nine days altogether, hon. Members would see that the effect would be to put a stop to a great deal of recruiting. As to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Northampton with regard to the Yeomanry, it was no doubt a fact, and hon. Members would agree with him, that great difficulty was experienced in getting employers of labour to avail themselves of the services of the Reserve men after they left the Colours. Employers had long been against such employment, their argument being that the men might be called away to serve at any time, and that, therefore, they could not be relied upon for any length of time. This, however, was not the case with regard to the Yeomanry. Employers belonging to that Force could be appealed to, and with success, to employ Reserve men, on the ground that being soldiers themselves they should employ soldiers. He was told that in very many instances this argument was used with good effect. The hon. Member for Northampton had given his version of the utility of the Yeomanry in the event of their active services being required; but the hon. Member could hardly be looked upon us an authority on such matters.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONI think it scarcely necessary to reply at any great length to the observations of the hon. Member for Northampton, which I think are made annually either by himself or some other hon. Member. I feel the Committee is very much indebted to the hon. Member for having made his remarks with such brevity. With regard to the Yeomanry, I would only repeat what I stated in moving the Army Estimates—namely, that I think there is no branch of the Service in which greater improvement has been effected than in this Force. A few years ago, no doubt, the Yeomanry were very much open to criticism, for, as the hon. Member for Northampton pointed out, the duty performed by them was little more than a seven or eight days' outing in the county town. Recently, however, owing to the appointment of Inspecting Officers for Auxiliary Cavalry, and active and efficient Cavalry officers as Yeomanry adjutants, and owing further 1432 to the appointment of active non-commissioned Cavalry officers as troop sergeant-majors, the efficiency of the Force has been very greatly increased. I quoted to the Committee the other day from the Report of the Inspecting Officers for Auxiliary Cavalry, and I pointed out that he expressed himself as astonished at the efficiency exhibited by these regiments. In his Report, this officer commented upon the very great progress the Yeomanry had made in drill with the very limited opportunities at their disposal. I think there can be little doubt, as my hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Acland) says, that if there is a necessity for a Volunteer Infantry Force, there is also a necessity for the Yeomanry Force. As I have said, it is in a state of very fair efficiency at present; and I have no doubt that if, unhappily, any occasion should arise for its being called into active service, and it were embodied for any length of time, that its efficiency would very rapidly increase, and that it would become a most useful and important arm of the Service. I do not think the Committee will be in any way disposed to take the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton; but it was true that there was considerable difficulty in asking the House this year for any considerable increase in this Vote. What we have endeavoured to do has been to increase the efficiency of the Force as far as possible without adding to the expense the country is now put to. It was, undoubtedly, the intention of the War Office, and I had hoped that it would have been in my power, to give the Yeomanry some small payments to assist them in having extra troop drills in the course of the year. As I stated originally, it would have been possible to make these payments without a large increase in the Vote, because it was found that during recent years the sum voted by Parliament had not been entirely spent. An examination of the accounts of last year, however, seemed to show that that would not be the case—that there would be no saving, in consequence of the improvement which had taken place in the officers and non-commissioned officers of the Force. This year, at all events, it would not be possible for us to make the grant; but I am still in hopes that it will be possible to save a small sum 1433 from the amount annually granted, from which the allowance might be made. Though it is true that no promise was ever made that the allowance would be granted, no doubt a Circular was issued leading the Force generally to expect that some such allowance would be forthcoming; and I am sure there must have been great disappointment experienced when it was found that nothing was to be given. I can only promise to do all in my power, consistently with the limits of the Vote and the efficiency of the Force, to find some way of making this increased payment.
§ MR. C. T. D. ACLANDsaid, the noble Marquess had stated that he would cause further inquiries than those instituted last year to be made with reference to the power of the Yeomanry to carry a more efficient weapon than that with which they were served at present, and also as to whether any arrangement should be made by which non-commissioned officers from the Yeomanry ranks could be admitted to some share in the course of instruction at Aldershot. The non-commissioned officers could be afforded this instruction at a very slight cost; and if they could obtain it he was sure a great many of them would go in for it, if it took place at a time of the year when they were not engaged in getting in the harvest. He had no doubt in the world that such instruction would be of the greatest practical use.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:— Ayes 103; Noes 25: Majority 78.—(Div. List, No. 84.)
§ (6.) £568,500, Volunteer Corps.
MR. A. F. EGERTONsaid, the Volunteer Force had to thank the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War for an issue of Martini-Henrys—especially that part of the Force which was represented by the National Rifle Association. He should like to ask, further, if there was not to be a further issue of these rifles? It was most important that the men should have them. Everybody knew what a bad arm was supplied at present, and how extremely necessary it was that it should be taken away and a better one given in its place. He understood that at the present moment the Government had in store upwards of 240,000 Martini-Henrys; and he hoped 1434 the noble Marquess was going to order the issue of a certain number of these to the Volunteer regiments. He should like to know whether that was the case; and, if so, he should like also to know whether the issue would be made pro ratê to the Force or by regiments? To his mind, the pro ratê system would not be so good as the regiment system. It was desirable to have each regiment homogeneously armed, rather than that there should be two kinds of arms in each.
§ MR. GURDONwished to say just two words on the point alluded to by hon. Gentleman opposite, when, some time ago, he asked a Question as to the reduction in camp allowances to Volunteers. There was no doubt that the Volunteers felt this reduction very much indeed. They had not expected any such arrangement at the War Office. He could speak intimately of the battalions of Norfolk and Suffolk Volunteers, who had for the last seven or eight years been in the habit of having annual encampments. These battalions had almost every year received high praise from the inspecting officer, and they themselves believed that they deserved it. They knew perfectly well that all the praise they had received arose from their spending a short time in camp every year. The battalions were recruited from agricultural districts, and it would be impossible for the men, unless they went through a training of this kind, ever to arrive at a state of efficiency. When he first heard of the new Order he received, it with dismay, feeling that it was a real blow aimed at the Volunteers. There were always three courses open in this matter—Either to give up the encampments altogether—and that was the very last thing they would think of doing, because the adoption of such a course would be the deathblow of many of the Volunteer battalions in the East of England; or to call on the officers of the regiments to contribute; or that the whole cost should fall on the commanding officers. To his mind, he thought the second of those courses would have to be adopted. There was no difficulty in obtaining good men in the Service; they got the same excellent class that they had obtained from the first; but there was great difficulty in obtaining the right class of officers. Many, of course, were too busy; some were too idle; and others 1435 said they could not bear the expense. Many of the officers were in poor circumstances, and if they were to be asked for £5 or £10 towards the expense of the camp much, greater difficulty would be experienced than was felt now in getting them to consent to go into camp. He appealed, therefore, to the noble Marquess whether it was not a fair demand to make to ask that the camp allowance should be allowed to continue? How was it to be expected that men would accept commissions which involved all this trouble and expense? He hoped the noble Marquess would reconsider this question, and ask for a small Supplementary Estimate, or, at any rate, promise that this reduction should not be made next year.
SIR HENRY FLETCHERreminded the noble Marquess that he had asked a Question on this subject a few days ago, and the noble Marquess promised to answer any Questions that might be brought forward upon the Estimates in Committee. He wished now to appeal to the noble Marquess to use his best efforts on behalf of the Volunteer Force, so that the whole number who had applied to go into camp this year might be allowed to do so. The Volunteer Force had now arrived at what he thought was a very efficient state; and he could speak from 25 years' experience of the Force. He had worked hard and long to bring that Force into a condition of efficiency; and he maintained that the great efficiency at which the Volunteers had now arrived was owing in a large degree to the regimental camps which had been carried out for many years past. There were now, he believed, something like 84,000 applicants to go into camp this year; and the Volunteers were most anxious, through what had taken place in past years, to prove their efficiency in years to come. That desire was owing to these camps. The sum of money proposed this year was only £34,000 for regimental camps for military instruction; but he hoped the noble Marquess would see his way to bringing in a Supplementary Vote, so that the whole of the men who had applied might be enabled to go into camp, for that was of the utmost importance to the efficiency of the Volunteer Force; and he thought they ought to receive a little more encouragement from Her Majesty's Government than they had received during 1436 the past 20 years. The commanding officers had worked hard to effect the present state of efficiency; but for many years during the early existence of the Force they had received no encouragement whatever from the Government. They had used their best efforts to produce efficiency; and these regimental camps had had a great deal to do with the present efficiency of the Force. There could be no doubt that discipline had been greatly promoted by these camps; and if only a small further sum of money was granted all the requirements of the Force might be attained; and he could not too strongly urge the noble Marquess to enable all the men who desired to go into camp this year to do so. But there was another consideration he wished to urge, and that was that, if not this year, in future years there should be a larger capitation grant. All through the past years the officers had put their hands into their pockets to bring up the efficiency of the Force; but he thought the Government ought now to do what was necessary to maintain the existing state of efficiency.
§ MR. BRAND, in reply to the hon. Member opposite (Mr. A. F. Egerton) with regard to the issue of Martini-Henry rifles to the Volunteers, said, the present reserve was 250,000 stand of arms, and it was not thought desirable to reduce that any further until there had been a fresh manufacture of rifles. But, under present circumstances, it was not desirable to manufacture too freely, because there was a question under consideration with regard to providing the Army with a new rifle. That question had not yet been decided upon; but a Departmental Committee had made a Report, he believed, in favour of a new arm, and the matter would come before the Secretary of State for War in the course of a few days for his decision. With reference to the present issue of the Martini-Henry rifle to the Volunteers, 8,000 had been issued to them through the National Rifle Association upon loan from the Government. He had instructed the authorities to make inquiries in the different districts as to the number of rifles it would be necessary to issue to the Volunteers in order to bring them up to the 12 per cent point. With regard to the Wimbledon competitions, he understood that the National Rifle Association had decided 1437 that in future the competitions should not be carried on with the Snider rifle; and, therefore, it was desirable that the Volunteers should be able to compete with the superior rifle. As soon as the Returns were received from, the different districts, the War Office would be prepared to issue the number of rifles required to make up the 12 percent; the Volunteers, of course, retaining their Sniders until there had been a full issue of the Martini-Henry. The Secretary of State for War would answer the question as to an increased capitation grant.
MR. A. F. EGERTONasked if he was to undersand that the question of making a further issue of a new rifle to the Volunteers would be considered as soon as the question had been decided between the Committee and the War Office?
§ VISCOUNT LEWISHAMsaid, he did not propose to detain the Committee any length of time; but with regard to the question of issuing the Martini-Henry, he wished to point out that it was now three years since Lord Morley, in distributing the prizes to a battalion of Volunteers in the county which he represented (West Kent), stated that the Martini-Henry would be issued to the Volunteers at an early date; but that had not yet been done. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Brand) had now stated that a new rifle was to be distributed to the Army.
§ MR. BRANDsaid, he had only stated that the question of a new rifle was now before the War Office, a Committee having reported upon it.
§ VISCOUNT LEWISHAMsaid, that, in that case, his only suggestion was that this new rifle should be issued to the Volunteers as well as the Army as soon as possible. With regard to the proposal to reduce the camp allowance, he was sure that would be received with universal regret by everybody who was interested in the Volunteer Force. It was not necessary now to point out the advantages which the Volunteers who went into camp received from the camp instruction; but it was perfectly clear that in districts where the companies of battalions were scattered, and were at considerable distances apart, these camps were the only opportunity they had of meeting and joining in bat- 1438 talion drill two or three times a-day for five or six days. In that way they learned their work in camping with others; and everyone who understood the subject must admit that the lessons they thus received were of the utmost importance to them. He had recently had a conversation with a gentleman who for some years had been in command of one of the districts; and that officer had expressed the opinion that the great increase in efficiency which had recently been noticed in the Force was entirely owing to these camps of instruction. Speaking of one particular battalion, he said that before they went into camp they were practically useless; but after their first year in camp, such was their efficiency that he found he could do anything he pleased with them. He himself had had the honour of going into camp with Volunteers for something like 14 years; and he could answer for it that the advantages they had derived had been enormous; and when it was considered how small an increase in the Estimate was wanted to enable the 20 per cent extra to go into camp, he felt sure that the Government, when they thought the matter over, would agree that the expense ought to be borne by them, and not by the battalions themselves. If that was not done, either the officers of the battalions must bear the expense of taking the extra 20 per cent into camp; or if, as was often the case, the officers were not men who could bear that expense, they would be reduced to the invidious and unpopular position of having to select the 20 per cent who were not to go into camp. He thought that was a very serious matter, for this proposition meant either that 20 per cent would not be taken into camp at all, or the expenses would have to be borne by the funds of the battalions which were already so heavily burdened. He hoped Her Majesty's Government would see their way to a small extra grant which would enable the further 20 per cent to go into camp.
§ MR. BULWERsaid, he had been a Volunteer for 25 years, and he wished to say a few words on this subject. When his hon. and gallant Friend (Sir Henry Fletcher) asked a Question upon this matter a few nights ago, he understood the answer to be that the original intentention of the Government was that each corps should be assisted to camp 1439 out once in three years. He had looked at the Volunteer Regulations to refresh his memory, for when that answer was given he could not remember that there was anything like an expressed intention in those Regulations to assist each corps to camp out only once in three years. He could not find that there was any such intention expressed in the Regulations; but, on the contrary, this camp allowance was held out as an inducement to Volunteers to go into camp and make themselves efficient. What had been the result? The Government having held out that inducement, year after year increasing numbers of men had gone into camp; and now, after the system had produced most satisfactory results, they were told that 20 per cent of those who had applied to go could not have the allowance. What would be the consequence of that? Either 20 per cent of the men would not be allowed the opportunity of making themselves efficient, and so lose the capitation grant, and the Force would be weakened to that extent; or they could only remain efficient by the officers bearing the expense. He thought it was a crying shame that the Government should, for the sake of a paltry economy of this kind, impose upon the officers the expense of keeping up the efficiency of the Force. Everyone knew what our Army was. Gallant fellows they all were; but if it were not for the Militia and the Volunteers, we should not be able to resist invasion. Everybody knew that, though everybody did not like to admit it. As to the effects of these camps, he -wished to supplement what had been said by the opinion of a higher authority than any of the hon. Gentlemen who had already spoken, and that was Lord Napier of Magdala. He (Mr. Bulwer) was intimately acquainted with the corps in question, and he was sorry that the noble Lord the Member for Winchester (Lord Daring), who held a command in the corps, was not at that moment present in the House. The corps to which he referred was the 1st Hampshire Volunteers, one of the first battalions to go into camp. They had gone into camp for 20 years, and originally almost the entire expense was borne by the officers, and that was the only mode in which they had been able to make themselves efficient. Last year they went into camp 900 strong; and 1440 Lord Napier of Magdala, happening to be residing in the neighbourhood, went out every day to watch their progress, and afterwards drew up a Memorandum, which he sent to the commanding officer; expressing the result of his observation of the men. From this Memorandum he would read a few sentences, with a view to impressing on the Committee the advantages which Volunteers derived from being in camp. These men were recruited from different districts in the county, and they only met occasionally for their company drills; while their only opportunity of learning their battalion drill and qualifying themselves to take their place in line with the Regular troops, or with any troops, was this annual week's practice. This they did very thoroughly. And with regard to cooking, he might mention that whole carcases of sheep were delivered in camp, and were cut up and distributed to the men just as would be done on actual service; and everything was done according to strict regulations. Lord Napier, after having watched them for one week, published this voluntary compliment to them—
I had frequent opportunities of seeing the 1st Hampshire Volunteers during their eight days' encampment at Camberley. They were steady at drill; Battalion movements smartly done, not entirely without mistakes, but with fewer than could possibly have been expected; the distances well preserved. The skirmishing was good, and I noticed the attention of the non-commissioned officers, and the willingness of the men to be taught. The camp was well pitched, and all its arrangements, camp kitchens, &c., very business-like and satisfactory. The conduct of the men in town was exemplary, and thoroughly won the goodwill of the inhabitants, who hope to see them again next year. The working of the Battalion showed that the company officers and the men had attended to their drill during the year, and thus they were able to appear in combined movements as if they had been embodied for a long time, and made it very difficult to realize that they had been together only a few days. On the whole, I consider the 1st Hampshire Volunteers a most serviceable and intelligent body of men, very creditable to their battalion, and to their officers and noncommissioned officers. I congratulate Colonel Sir W. Humphery on having brought the corps to such a highly creditable condition.That was entirely owing to their having been in camp every year for 20 years, the numbers going into camp having increased from 500 to 1,000. The Government proposed now that only 800 of those men should be assisted to go into camp; and as that was their only means 1441 of making themselves efficient 200 must be returned as non-efficient, or the officers must provide the money which the Government declined to give. He sincerely trusted that if the Committee of the House recognized the value of the Volunteers they would not sanction this parsimony. With regard to the issue of the Martini-Henry, he was not so anxious to encourage the practice of "pot-hunting" by the issue of this rifle for a fortnight. He thought it was of more importance to consider the general improvement in shooting by the Volunteers than the shooting of a few men at Wimbledon. He would rather have a few battalions shoot better than they now could, than have good shooting confined to a few particular men. He hoped the noble Marquess would have no hesitation in asking for a supplement to the Vote proposed, which was not sufficient to meet the wants of all the men who wished to go into camp this year, so that no Volunteers might be disappointed in receiving their allowance.
MR. STAVELEY HILL, as almost the oldest Volunteer in the House, said, he would venture to say a few words on a question which was of such considerable interest as this. As he read the Order of 1881 in the Regulations, it was that 2s. a-day, for a period not exceeding six days annually, be allowed to Volunteer corps for each man, under the circumstances described in paragraph 999. That was the Regulation, distinctly laid down. Under those conditions camps of instruction had been formed which had been of very great use; and, speaking as one who had had the honour of entertaining one of these camps each. year in his own place, he could bear testimony to the advantage these camps had been, not only in bringing up the efficiency of the men, but in promoting their health and discipline. Under these circumstances, a letter had been issued, dated March 31, 1884, which, he thought, was unworthy of a Government which had any desire to promote the Military Service of the country. The reason given for reducing the allowance by 20 per cent was that the numbers of men applying to go into camp throughout the country being in excess of the amount provided for in the annual Estimate, it had become necessary to limit the amount sanctioned for each corps. So that simply because 1442 it was not thought fit to put a few hundred pounds on to this Vote—an amount which would never have been grudged by the House or by the country—it was deemed necessary to limit the amount granted. He would apply that to the one camp with which he was acquainted. The number of men who went into that camp was 1,150. Of those, there were 200 men for three days at 6s. per man, which would come to £60; 100 men for five days at 10s. each—total, £50; 850 at 12s. each—total, £510; making altogether £620 for these 1,150 men. What did the Government propose to do? To grant only £496 of that £620, and to put the officers or men to the expense of £124 to enable all the men to go into camp.
§ COLONEL WALRONDsaid, he was glad the Government had taken this Vote thus early in the Session, instead of deferring it, as they did last year, to a later period. It was a very important Vote, more especially on account of the Memorandum which his hon. Friend had quoted. The question of camps of instruction was a very serious one to the Volunteer Force generally; but as it had been discussed so fully already, he would not say much upon it. But he wished to say that many battalions of Provincial Volunteers now looked entirely to these camps for their efficiency. They could not afford to have battalion drills in their own districts; and if they could not have this annual week in camp they would suffer serious loss. Therefore, he hoped the noble Marquess would see his way to making an increased grant. He was quite sure that the noble Marquess and his hon. Friends were ready to do this; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer turned a deaf ear to them. All the military authorities in the House and at the War Office were, he was sure, willing that the Volunteers should receive their fair measure of money. He was much disappointed by the statement of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Brand) with regard to the Martini-Henry rifles; because he knew that the Council of the National Rifle Association understood that, in addition to the Martini-Henry rifles they now had, they were to receive 12,000. [Mr. BRAND dissented.] The hon. Member shook his head; but that was what was understood by the Council; and, as a member of that Council, he 1443 thought it his duty to mention that now. He had also hoped that there would be an additional number of rifles issued to the whole Force in the course of the year; and he thought it would be a disastrous policy to issue Martini-Henry rifles to the Volunteer Force on a percentage system, as proposed. He could imagine nothing so likely to promote the practice of "pot - hunting" as to issue a certain number of Martini-Henry's to the good shots; because there were men now armed with that rifle who had given up the Snider entirely, and only shot with the Martini-Henry. If there was only a percentage of Martini-Henry's issued, the men who had them would give up the Snider, and that would seriously interfere with class shooting. It was desirable that general shooting should be encouraged, rather than that attention should be directed to getting a certain number of good shots. There was an impression that the Volunteers could shoot better than the men in the Army; but although, no doubt, it was possible to pick out a certain number of Volunteers who would make good practice, his opinion was that, in general, the Volunteers were in this respect inferior to the Regular troops. He trusted that the question of rifles would receive the earnest attention of Her Majesty's Government. He had referred to that subject two or three weeks ago, and the reply was that 250,000 Martini-Henry rifles were in store. He could see no reason why those weapons should not be as safe in the armouries of Volunteer Corps as they were in the Tower of London; at any rate, he was certain they could be returned into store within a week if necessary; that they would be rather improved by a little practice being made with them; and that their issue would tend to increase the efficiency of the Volunteer Force. It was somewhat late (1 A.M.) to call attention to one or two points that he desired to refer to; but the present was the only opportunity that would present itself of discussing Volunteer questions during the Session. One point was as to whether it was desirable that there should be an increased capitation grant, because the present grant was, in the opinion of many persons, insufficient, and it was considered that an additional sum should be given. His own view was that, if any further grant were made, it should 1444 be done by means of re-arrangement of the class tiring; and he thought that if a scheme were drawn up to encourage the men to shoot, and thereby obtain an increased grant for efficiency with the rifle, it would do some good to the regiment. Then he wished to draw attention for one moment to the examination which Volunteer officers had to go through. He complained that the officers had to pay all their expenses in going to the place of examination, and that, when that examination was passed, they received as a grant 10s. for the benefit of their regiments. He thought that when an officer had passed his examination, the grant might be increased from 10s. to 50s., or even more; and that would, no doubt, induce a larger number of officers to present themselves and do their best. So much had been said about the advantage of those examinations that he would not further refer to them. He thought it a subject for much congratulation that the Volunteer Force had increased in efficiency; and he was sure the Committee would be satisfied with the statement of the noble Marquess that during last year 1,390 Volunteers had enlisted in the Regular Army. It had always been his opinion that the Volunteer Force was a valuable addition to the Regular Army, not only in time of peace, but in time of war; and he was convinced that there was sufficient spirit amongst them to induce them to join the Army in the hour of need. He hoped Her Majesty's Government would be able to carry out the views he had recommended.
COLONEL STANLEYsaid, he was anxious, after what had been said by hon. and gallant Gentlemen in different parts of the House, to ask the noble Marquess to consider, in the most favourable light that circumstances would allow, the applications made by Volunteers to camp out. He trusted the noble Marquess would not be compelled to baulk the desire of the Volunteers to go into camp. Recalling the Regulations, he believed there had always been some reservation as to the grant to be given. Paragraph 913 distinctly stated that the general expense would be covered by 2s. a-day; but there did not appear to be any limitation of the numbers. There were, of course, difficulties in the way—that was to say, the noble Marquess could not go to the country 1445 for an additional grant; he must wait until the exigencies of the Service pressed it upon him. But he could not help thinking that if the noble Marquess could see his way to allow a large proportion of the Volunteers applying to go into camp, it would go far to remove the feeling of discouragement which he understood was rather widely spread in consequence of the Regulation. With regard to the issue of Martini-Henry rifles, it appeared to him that a mistake had been made in issuing them by percentage, which would tend to mix up the arms of the regiment, and to complicate the arrangements for making and storing them; it would introduce two kinds of arms and ammunition, where it was never desirable or convenient to have more than one; and it would have a tendency to encourage the doctrine that the rifles in question were issued to assist a few men to shoot exceedingly well, rather than to bring up the whole regiment to a better average of shooting. It might be well if the rate of distribution were increased; and he thought the noble Marquess would be justified in keeping a lower reserve than, perhaps, would at other times be desirable. As had been pointed out, the arms would not be lost to the Army, and they would be always available in case of emergency. On the whole, he should be glad to see the abandonment of the percentage principle, which had been generally unacceptable, and was believed to be undesirable in itself.
§ MR. TOMLINSONsaid, he hoped his right hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Stanley) would not think he was going too far in saying that they ought not to be satisfied with less than the proper allowance for every Volunteer on going into camp. In Lancashire, which was at the head of all the counties in respect to the Volunteer Service, both in numbers and efficiency, it had become more and more the custom every year to go into camp; and he thought that the inclination to adopt what was really the best system of training ought to be encouraged in every possible way. But the diminution of the allowance must have a discouraging effect. He knew already of one very efficient Lancashire corps which had decided not to go into camp upon the reduced allowance offered this year. The officers did not feel themselves justified in putting their hands 1446 into their pockets to make up the difference between the grant and the amount actually required. His own experience was that the great benefit to be derived from camping out depended upon its continuity. Those Volunteers who had been into camp one year were in a much better condition to profit by their next year's duties, and so on with respect to other years. The corps to which he belonged had gone regularly into camp for several years; and, as an instance of the progress made from year to year, he might mention that three years ago the men undertook to do their own cooking. The first year they had the assistance of eight skilled cooks from one of the Regular regiments; the next year they only required four; and the following year only one. Now, cooking was essential to enable a regiment to march, and that was just the kind of instruction that was derived from going into camp; and he hoped the Government would not act so as to discourage this very hopeful means of bringing the Volunteer Service into a condition of efficiency. There was much in the Report issued this year which must be gratifying to those interested in the Volunteer Force. The efficiency of the Force had greatly increased; and yet they were sensible of the fact that much remained to be done to enable it, in case of need, to take the field. He thought the Government would not go too far if, in addition to the Martini - Henry rifles, they were to provide accoutrements of the most approved pattern, and also valises. As it was, Volunteers were obliged to march into camp with the old knapsack, which was the only means they had of making up their kits; and it would be obvious that no regiment could take the field with an equipment of that kind. Therefore, he hoped the authorities would take into consideration the question of supplying accoutrements and valises to those Volunteers who desired to make themselves efficient. Some distinguished military men thought the Government ought to provide the Force with great coats, and that also he commended to the attention of the noble Marquess. At that hour he would not go into any other matters connected with the Force, though there were several which he had wished to notice; and he would, therefore, conclude by saying that he did not think he could too 1447 strongly express the hope that Her Majesty's Government would yield to the desire, on the part of most Volunteers, that a sufficient grant should be made to enable those who desired it to go into camp.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, the discussion which had taken place showed that a strong feeling existed amongst hon. Gentlemen who took an interest in the Volunteer Force with reference to camping out. He did not think that subject had been prominently before him until a Question was asked upon it a few days ago; and until that evening he was not aware that so strong a feeling existed in connection with it. It was quite clear that before next year the subject must, at all events, be thoroughly considered; either some increase in the provision must be made, or else some method of selection less objectionable than the present method of dealing with the grants must be adopted. He did not, however, think that amongst the Volunteers of North-West Lancashire any idea of breach of faith was associated with the Circular which had been issued.
COLONEL STANLEYI hope the noble Marquess will not think I said there was any breach of faith. I said it was wise to avoid the appearance of it.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he thought the Regulation must be held to be governed by the first paragraph relating to regimental camps, which said that a portion of the Volunteer Force would in each year be assisted to form camps for Volunteer exercise, and then went on to describe the Regulations as to Volunteers who wished to form camps. There was nothing whatever about a greater force being assisted to camp out every year. He had already stated that they should be allowed to camp out every third year. As he had stated the other day, the permission to receive this assistance was not at first very much taken advantage of; apparently but a small number of corps desired to camp out at all, and those who did received the allowance year after; year. The number, however, had continued rapidly to increase, and it was thought to be desirable and more agreeable to the position of the Volunteers themselves that, instead of making a selection of corps, a reduction of 20 per cent should be made on the number of 1448 men all round who were desirous of camping out. But, as he had said, the question must be considered before next year. If he could see his way to do so, he should be very glad to meet the suggestion of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Stanley), to reconsider the matter at once; but considering the heavy expenses with which the Military Estimates were burdened this year, it was much more likely there would be a deficiency than a saving, and he could not, therefore, make any further provision by way of Supplementary Estimate this year. It was necessary that some control should be exercised over this and other expenditure on account of the Volunteer Force; although he was free to admit that up to the present time the Force had been an economical one, and he believed that its high popularity was largely due to that fact. He was somewhat sorry to hear that the exertions of the authorities to maintain that economy had been met with a request for an increased expenditure. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Walrond) was probably correct when he said that the House would cheerfully vote the sum required for an increased capitation grant. No doubt it would, and also a great many other items; but when hon. Members, on whichever side of the House they sat, came to consider the expenditure of the Government from a broader point of view, he did not see that there was any such unanimous acquiescence in the general increase of military expenditure; on the contrary, accusations of extravagance in military matters had proceeded with tolerable impartiality from both sides of the House. Under those circumstances—considering that it was desirable that strict economy should be exercised with regard to the Force; considering, also, that only a limited portion of the Force could encamp every year, and that the proposal would involve a sudden and unexpected increase of charge, it was impossible to hold out any hope that an alteration could be made before next year.
§ MR. ALAN EGERTONsaid, that nothing appeared to have been done for the purpose of restoring to the Volunteers Wormwood Scrubbs as a shooting ground. It was very important that all Volunteers should become efficient in shooting in order to earn the capitation 1449 grant. At the same time, it was impossible for the working classes, who formed the great bulk of the London Volunteer regiments, to spend the time and money necessary for their going down to Ealing. The present arrangement meant that Volunteers must sacrifice half-a-day's wages in order to make themselves efficient; and he therefore trusted the hon. Gentleman the Surveyor General of Ordnance (Mr. Brand) would be able to give some assurance that Wormwood Scrubbs should be used for the purpose of Volunteer practice.
§ MR. BULWERsaid, he hoped that the allowances would be made this year to the men who actually went into camp. A promise to that effect would enable commanding officers to make the necessary arrangements as soon as the number of men was known. The expense would not be very great, and the concession need not be drawn into a precedent; at the same time, early notice could be given next year which would allow commanding officers to make arrangements for a certain number of men to go into camp on the Regulation allowance.
SIR HENRY FLETCHERremarked, that the establishment of the Volunteer Force in 1883–4 was 193,734, and that for the year 1884–5 it numbered 194,220—a very considerable increase, which showed that the Volunteers were desirous of making themselves efficient, which, of his own knowledge, they were perfectly able to accomplish. He hoped the noble Marquess would see his way this year to give the Volunteers the benefit of any alteration that could be made in the Regulations with regard to camping out; and he was sure they would be perfectly willing to submit to such further Regulations as the noble Marquess might bring forward.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he would give the best consideration he could; but it was impossible for him to do what was asked of him—namely, to bring in a Supplementary Estimate. It was occasionally necessary, at the commencement of a year, to bring in Supplementary Estimates; but such Estimates were for unforeseen expenses. He could not see his way to bring in a Supplementary Estimate to cover the expense of Volunteers going into camp.
§ Vote agreed to.
1450§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Committee sit again upon Wednesday."
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, that when the Vote for the Men was taken the Committee were promised faithfully that to-night, or the night the Estimates were brought forward again, hon. Members should have an ample opportunity of discussing the Vote; that was distinctly stated by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Vote was agreed to. They had not had the opportunity that was promised them; and therefore he begged to ask that Supply should be put down again upon a day that the Committee would have an opportunity of discussing the question of the present condition of the Army.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORreminded the right lion. Gentleman on the Government Bench that the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War agreed in reference to one Vote—a Vote which had just been taken in Committee—that it should not be reported as early as the other Votes, but should be allowed to stand over until the War Office had made up their minds with regard to certain suggestions, emanating from Irish Members, as to the payment of chaplains for certain Militia regiments in Ireland. What he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) wanted to ascertain was, whether it was distinctly understood that at the next Report of Supply the Vote for Divine Service would not be included?
§ SIR ARTHUR HAYTERsaid, the Report of the whole of the Votes must be put down pro formâ but he would arrange with the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War, who had given such an undertaking as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Queen's County (Mr. A. O'Connor) mentioned, that the Vote for Divine Service should be postponed. In reply to the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot), he had to say that the first Vote had been already reported; but there would be ample opportunity for discussing the question of the present condition of the Army upon the Reserve Vote, and that Vote could not long be postponed. He hoped that the introduction of that Vote would be considered by 1451 the hon. and gallant Baronet a fitting and convenient opportunity on which to bring on his Motion.
SIR HENRY FLETCHERpointed out to his hon. and gallant Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office (Sir Arthur Hayter) that the Committee understood from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that they should have an opportunity of discussing the whole Army question on Vote 8, and on some day between Easter and Whitsuntide. He hoped that another day would be given before Whitsuntide for the consideration of the Army Estimates.
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, the Government promised that a day should be given for the Army Estimates, and another day for the Navy Estimates, before Whitsuntide. It was quite impossible to give a second day for the Army Estimates before Whitsuntide.
§ Motion agreed to.