§ (2.) £102,000, Post Office.
§ MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKsaid, he would take that opportunity of putting a question to the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General (Mr. Fawcett) with regard to the conveyance of mails. He was desirous of putting a similar question during the last two Sessions; but the Post Office Estimates were hurried through in such a way that there was no opportunity for any hon. Member to address himself to the questions of the Department. Now, the question which he wished to put to the right hon. Gentleman was one which, if the right hon. Gentleman did not feel able to answer at this moment, he would gladly postpone to some future period. He wanted to know why we, in this country, could not have the same advantages at railway stations with regard to the posting of letters which the people of foreign countries had? The right hon. Gentleman might, perhaps, be aware that at almost every foreign railway station there was a removable post office box, which remained open until within a very few moments of the arrival of the train; the letters were then collected and put at once in the van. Well, now, in England, which was supposed to be some time in advance of other countries, such postal facilities were not afforded. In many of our 1635 stations there were no pillar or letter boxes at all, and his experience was that even where such pillar or letter boxes were found, the letters, instead of being put at once into the post office, were some considerable time before taken into the town and sorted at the post office. This seemed to him to be a great inconvenience, and he could see no reason why the public of this country should not be put upon the same footing as the people of foreign countries with regard to the postal arrangements at railway stations. Many years ago, when the noble Lord the present Secretary of State for War (the Marquess of Hartington) was at the head of the Post Office Department, he (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck) took a great deal of trouble to bring this matter under his consideration, and the noble Marquess did give certain advantages to the public—for instance, the public were allowed to post letters in the post office van, but only where there was a van in charge of a clerk. Now, in the post office train which served Whitehaven, the borough which he had the honour to represent in Parliament, there was no post office van properly so-called. The mails were conveyed by the London and Northwestern Railway Company to Carnforth or Carlisle under the charge of a railway guard, and not under the charge of a post office clerk. Therefore the people in the district comprising Whitehaven, with its 20,000 inhabitants, had no power of posting letters at the last moment. They must go to the post office in the first instance; and, therefore, the people were debarred the advantage which persons residing in a place from which a post office van in charge of a post office clerk departed, enjoyed. He did not mean to move a reduction of the Vote. His desire was as perfectly as he could to bring the matter under the right hon. Gentleman's notice, in the hope that at some future time the facilities he suggested might be afforded the public.
§ MR. SEXTONwished very briefly to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fawcett) to one or two important matters concerning the despatch of mails from the West of Ireland, which had come under his notice. He had received a letter from one of his constituents at Sligo, in which it was shown that if a person posted a letter at Glasgow for Sligo and then afterwards left 1636 by train, he would land in Sligo 12 hours before the letter. Letters from England and Liverpool only occupied 22 hours in transmission, and those from Glasgow 36 hours. As to the despatch of the day mail to and from Sligo, it was as well the right hon. Gentleman should be put in possession of the facts. The day mail left Dublin at 9 o'clock and arrived at Sligo at 2.40; the distance was 140 miles; so that the train only travelled at the rate of 24 miles an hour. This train might easily be made to start at half-past 8, and to reach Sligo at 12 o'clock. The letters arriving at 2.40 were not delivered in the majority of cases until 5 o'clock. Under the proposed arrangement the letters could easily be delivered at 2 o'clock, thus rendering a reply the same night possible. Pretty much the same state of things prevailed in respect to the day mail from Sligo to Dublin. The secret of the matter was to be found in the payment which was made by the Post Office to the Railway Company. There were four great mail roads in Ireland, and the Government paid the Great Northern for the conveyance of mails £73 per mile, while to the Midland they only paid £41 per mile. The Chairman of the Midland Company, at the last half-yearly meeting of the shareholders, exposed the facts. He pointed out that the Western lines starved in comparison to the Northern, Southern, and Eastern lines, because the sum paid to the Midland was only about two-thirds of the amount paid to the other lines. And the Chairman added that his Company was quite ready at a moment's notice to run trains at 40 miles instead of 24 miles, if they were paid properly. He (Mr. Sexton) would not delay the Committee further. He trusted, however, it would be possible for the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General to procure for the citizens of Sligo, and the West of Ireland generally, the same postal facilities which were afforded in every other part of Ireland.
§ MR. T. D. SULLIVANasked whether it would not be feasible, now that there was a Parcel Post in operation, to make such arrangements as would permit of the distribution of Parliamentary Papers to Members of Parliament living outside the very restricted area within which they were delivered at present? Now, the restriction of the 1637 free delivery of Parliamentary Books and Papers to the present narrow district had simply this result—that the Books and Papers were almost altogether useless. All Members of Parliament did not live in London; all Members of Parliament did not live within the narrow area in which the distribution now took place. It was not every Member of Parliament who was able to be in attendance at Westminster during the whole period of the Session, so that many Books and Papers which were interesting and valuable, and which would be carefully studied if hon. Members had an opportunity of studying them, became absolute waste. As there was now a Parcel Post in operation, he did not think it would be a very serious drain upon the exertions of the Post Office Department to send the Blue Books and other Parliamentary Papers—of course, he did not mean Papers intended for immediate use—to whatever address in the United Kingdom hon. Members might choose to give. He had spoken to several Members upon the subject, and they agreed with him that the course he suggested would be a very wise and proper one to follow. Many of the Books and Papers were very costly; they were meant for the enlightenment and instruction of Members of Parliament; and, therefore, why should three-fourths of them be absolutely wasted owing to the arrangements now in force for their distribution? He trusted the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General would give his attention to the matter.
§ MR. WARTONsaid, there was a little matter he wished to revert to. He brought it under the notice of the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General in 1881 and in 1882. He could not bring it forward in 1883 on account of the disgraceful way in which this and other Estimates were hurried through the Committee. He hoped that this Session they were not going to give their undivided attention to Reform Bills and nonsense of that sort, but give some real attention to the financial transactions of the different Departments of the State. After this introduction it was just possible that the point he wished to raise might be considered a rather trivial one. Perhaps it was on account of the smallness of the matter that it had escaped the attention of the right hon. 1638 Gentleman. They were all aware that the Post Office authorities preferred to have letters registered if they contained anything of value. There was one little obstacle to registration still left, and that was the charge for the envelope. He had been more than once told there was a farthing to pay. Now, he did not carry farthings, and he had had to pay a halfpenny for an envelope. He suggested to the right hon. Gentleman that it would be far better to have the 2d. charged for registration cover the cost of the envelope. The envelope was not worth a farthing, and even if it were the Post Office could well afford to forego it. A round sum was always preferable to a broken sum, and in point of revenue he did not think the Post Office would be the loser by the change. This was the matter he wished to raise. Twice the right hon. Gentleman had kindly said he would attend to it; and he (Mr. Warton) hoped that upon the third time of asking the right hon. Gentleman would think it desirable to effect the proposed improvement.
MR. O'BRIENwished to call the attention of the Postmaster General to the matter which was raised in a Question he put to the right hon. Gentleman the other day. He asked why it was that Mr. Thomas Walsh, who was Post master at Castletownshend, and who had been convicted under the Crimes Act and sentenced to four months' imprisonment, and whose sentence was confirmed on appeal, was reinstated in the position of Postmaster upon his release? He also asked the right hon. Gentleman whether it was not a fact that postal employés who had been arrested under the Peace Preservation Act merely as suspects, without ever having been convicted at all, had been dismissed from their employment. The right hon. Gentleman, in reply, said he was not aware of any such cases to which he (Mr. O'Brien) had referred. He (Mr. O'Brien) had since only been able to come across one case; it was that of E. J. Barrett, a telegraphist in County Gal way. Barrett was arrested under the Coercion Act upon some general suspicion. He was imprisoned in Galway Prison for five months. He was then released, and application was made for his re-instatement in the Telegraph Service, but without avail. The unfortunate young fellow had thus lost the 1639 means of obtaining a livelihood. Not only had he lost his employment, but he had ever since been persecuted by the police—in fact, he was practically ruined. He (Mr. O'Brien) was sure the right hon. Gentleman was a little more anxious than most of his class to steer an even course; and he asked the right hon. Gentleman whether, if a man convicted of the serious offence of threatening letter-writing was to be reinstated in his former position, a man against whom no serious charge was ever made—certainly never substantiated—would experience equal indulgence from the right hon. Gentleman?
§ MR. HEALYsaid, his hon. Friend the Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) had stated the facts with more moderation than the hardship of Barrett's case justified. Barrett was the sole support of aged parents, and simply because he was merely suspected of crime he had been peremptorily dismissed the Postal Service. Walsh, however, happened to be a man of Orange sympathies. He was convicted by the Resident Magistrate, and his sentence was confirmed on appeal by Mr. Ferguson, County Judge at Cork. In response to an appeal ad misericordia, Mr. Walsh was released from gaol, and the Postmaster General now told the Committee that the release was tantamount to an admission by the Government that Mr. Walsh was not guilty at all. Of course, it was rather hard to blame the Postmaster General himself; but he did not think the right hon. Gentleman was so much in the hands of his officials. Up to the present the right hon. Gentleman had certainly given the impression that he acted upon his own responsibility. Though his hon. Friend the Member for Mallow had only mentioned the case of Barrett, it was not the only case of hardship which happened under the Coercion Act. He did not think the release of Walsh was tantamount to an admission of his innocence. They might be told that the release of Mr. Hastings was an admission of his innocence, Mr. Hastings having pleaded guilty at the trial. It was clear the Postmaster General must not accept the release of men by Government favour in Ireland as tantamount to an admission of innocence. The Government convicted Walsh, through the Resident Magistrate, of sending a threatening letter. Not only was the man convicted, 1640 but his sentence was confirmed on appeal by the County Court Judge. A case, however, was got up in the man's favour, and the Lords Justices released him from prison. It was a very extraordinary thing, however, that the Postmaster General should fall in with this friendly arrangement, because how did he suppose that the people of that locality could have any confidence in the administration of justice? Barrett was only arrested on suspicion. Was his release tantamount to an admission of his innocence? He was released from gaol just as Mr. Walsh was. Why was he not reinstated in the position he had formerly occupied? He (Mr. Healy) did not think that even the ingenuity of the right hon. Gentleman could find an answer. Were they to have in future the Postal Department in Ireland conducted upon Orange principles; were they to add the Department of the right hon. Gentleman to the other Departments that were conducted solely to please the Orange faction? The people were asked to place confidence in the Departments of the State; but how could they do so under present circumstances? Why was a different measure of justice meted out to Mr. Walsh than to Mr. Barrett?
§ MR. TOMLINSONsaid, he had only one word to say with reference to the issue of postal orders. They all knew that postal orders were very convenient forms of sending money; but the difficulty about them was that they did not easily adapt themselves to sending odd sums. What he had to ask was, whether the right hon. Gentleman would consider if it was not possible, by some means of affixing stamps, to make up any difference required?
§ MR. FAWCETTWe are going to move in the direction the hon. Gentleman suggests.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, that, a few days ago, the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General gave a reply which he (Mr. Biggar) did not exactly follow to a Question with regard to the postal arrangements on Tory Island. Tory Island stood some distance from the mainland, and there had been some difficulty in getting the mails conveyed to and fro. Some time ago, he asked a Question with regard to the class of people who carried letters in Ireland. In some instances he had heard that the 1641 remuneration was exceedingly small. He understood that the rate of pay depended upon the rate of wages in the locality; and the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General promised that, if he (Mr. Biggar) would draw attention to particular cases, he would investigate them. Now, he (Mr. Biggar) did not wish to make himself the champion of individual persons, possibly persons of no merit, and who did not deserve to be supported. Besides, it was a very indiscreet reply on the part of the right hon. Gentleman, for the very reason that it led a number of people in Ireland to suppose that he (Mr. Biggar) was able to use influence with the right hon. Gentleman. He considered it was very desirable that the Post Office officials in Ireland should receive reasonable remuneration. The postal arrangements in County Cavan were of a most unsatisfactory nature. There was no intercommunication between the different parts of the country for postal purposes. If a letter had to be sent from one part of Cavan to another it was usually sent up to Dublin, and then sent to its destination, which probably was only a few miles from the place where it was posted. He should imagine it was possible to make arrangements whereby a letter posted at one place could be delivered at a place 20 miles distant under two days. Such was the state of things in Cavan. He had no doubt the same state of things prevailed in other parts of Ireland; and, therefore, he trusted the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fawcett) would apply some remedy.
§ MR. FAWCETTWith regard to the question put to me by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck), I shall be very glad indeed to consider his suggestions. Of course, my opinion on such points is not worth anything at all compared with that of the practical officers who for years have had under their special consideration arrangements connected with the carrying of mails; but it strikes me that one of the right hon. Gentleman's proposals is surrounded by some difficulty. The right hon. Gentleman proposes that at a station like Rugby, for instance, there should be a removable letter-box on the platform, and that such letter-box should be kept open until the last moment and then put in the train. He does not seem to 1642 make any provision for sorting, so that it is just possible you will have North letters going South and South letters going North. I should like to know how the right hon. Gentleman would get over such a difficulty as I have foreshadowed; but still I will very carefully consider the matter. In order that I may not make any mistake in laying the subject before the practical officers of the Department, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would write me a short letter describing his plan. With regard to what was said by the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton), I shall be much obliged if the hon. Gentleman will send a copy of the letter he has received as to the delay in the conveyance of mails between Glasgow and Sligo. As to the general question of the acceleration of mails between Sligo and Dublin, I have only to say that the acceleration of the Irish mails is now the most pressing question engaging the attention of the Department. We are now on the point of settling a new time table between London and Kingstown; when that is settled we shall be in a position to effect an acceleration in regard to the Irish Provincial towns. I may remark here that I fully recognize that the acceleration of the Irish mails to the Provincial towns in Ireland is far more important than it is to Dublin, because Dublin now gets its letters at convenient times, and letters leave the City at convenient times. But I am aware that in the case of many Provincial towns there is not sufficient time given to answer a letter the same day it is received. One of the chief obstacles would be removed if the Railway Companies are willing to accept a reasonable increase of payment for an accelerated service. Therefore, nothing will promote acceleration of mails so much as that hon. Gentlemen from Ireland should do what they can to bring their opinions to bear on the Railway Companies, and cause them to be reasonable in the terms they demand from the Government. With regard to the case of Mr. Barrett, brought under my notice by the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien), and the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy), I have to say I have an indistinct recollection of the case. I searched the records at the Office diligently yesterday, but I could not find a single instance of a man being dismissed under the circumstances. 1643 alleged. I may have overlooked it; but I assure the hon. Gentlemen that I will look into this case carefully on Monday, and I will communicate to them either in the House or by letter what the result of my inquiry is. The hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) has referred to three questions. One question was the conveyance of mails to Tory Island. Yesterday the hon. Gentleman asked me whether I refused to make a contract for conveyance of mails to Tory Island on certain terms. What I said in reply—and I am willing to repeat it—was that if the hon. Gentleman knows any suitable person who will convey the mails upon the terms mentioned in his question I shall be at once glad to enter into the contract. The hon. Gentleman also complained of the general postal arrangements in Cavan. The remarks I made in respect to Sligo also apply to Cavan. As to the question of the pay of letter carriers, I have only again to say that if the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Biggar) knows of any particular cases that might have been overlooked by the Department, I shall be much obliged to him if he will bring them under my notice. The suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton) is really one he should address to the Treasury rather than to me; because in anything involving expenditure, however small, the Treasury is supreme over the Post Office. But I will take the suggestion into consideration. I am sorry I forgot to do so before. And with regard to what was said by the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Tomlinson) with reference to postal orders, I am glad to tell him that on the 2nd of June a new scheme, such as that which he indicated, will come into operation. I believe the effect of that scheme will be to greatly extend the use of postal orders. We shall introduce new denominations of postal orders, which I need not describe now; but the result will be that any broken sum up to £1 may be sent by using postal orders, and putting not more than five stamps on the back of the orders. The use of postal orders has enormously increased. The year they were introduced we estimated that we should issue about 50,000 a-week. That estimate has already been exceeded by more than 600 per cent. and the number now issued is 270,000 a-week, or more than 1644 12,000,000 a-year. I believe that when the new scheme comes into operation this means of sending small sums of money will be still more largely used by the public than it has been up to the present. The question raised by the hon. Member for Westmeath (Mr. T. D. Sullivan) is one over which I have no control whatever. The distribution of Parliamentary Papers is undertaken by the Vote Office under the superintendence of the Speaker, and I have no power to alter or enlarge the area within which the Parliamentary Papers are delivered.
§ MR. COURTNEYsaid, the hon. Member for Westmeath had only to notify to the Vote Office that he wanted certain Papers and Books kept for him and he would find his wishes complied with.
§ MR. T. D. SULLIVANsaid, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would take the matter into further consideration, because it was extremely desirable that the Parliamentary Books and Papers should be delivered to Members when in the country as well as when in town.
§ MR. HEALYsaid the statement of the right hon. Gentleman was very skilful; but that was only one branch of the question, and he had adroitly avoided dealing with the case of Mr. Walsh. They must pin the right hon. Gentleman to the case of Mr. Walsh. It was no answer to them to say what Mr. Barrett had done; that was not the question. The question was why Mr. Walsh had been treated in this way; and they wanted to know from the Postmaster General whether he was satisfied with the conduct of matters in his Department? They had had enough of the Chief Secretary's dealings with Orange magistrates; but if the Government were to import Orangemen into the Post Office there was no knowing where things would stop.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, it was extremely novel to hear that he had strong Orange sympathies. So far as he understood this case, it seemed to him to stand in exactly the same position as that of several persons who had been released after having been imprisoned under the Peace Preservation Act, and who had been re-appointed to their posts. He would, however, look into the matter again.
MR. O'BRIENsaid, he and his hon. Friends, of course, acquitted the Postmaster General of any personal know- 1645 ledge of matters of this kind; but, unquestionably, the feeling in the neighbourhood was that this man's reinstatement was due directly to Orange sympathies. He could not for a moment understand how so clear-minded a Gentleman as the Postmaster General could be deceived by this case of a person arrested under the Peace Preservation Act. This was the case of a person convicted by the tribunal established by that Act—convicted by two Resident Magistrates; who appealed to the County Court Judge, who, on a review of the evidence, deliberately confirmed the judgment of the Court below. Afterwards, of course, the magistrates, for reasons of their own, got this man released. The whole thing had been managed in camera, and this man got his release just as a man sentenced to penal servitude got his release after a certain length of time.
§ MR. T. D. SULLIVANsaid, there was to be a new post office at Mullingar; but there had been great delay in the matter, much to the surprise of the people in that neighbourhood. There had been a rumour that a change of site had been decided on, and he would like to know whether progress was being made in that matter?
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, his memory was not quite clear, but he would inquire.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (3.) £18,000, Post Office Packet Service.
§ MR. SCLATER-BOOTHasked why this sum of £18,000 was not proposed in July last, or in August, when the Supplementary Estimates were before the House; and why the whole of these subsidies and contracts for the Post Office were not placed, as they used to be, under one head? Under this Supplementary Estimate there were, for example, under Class V., 10 subsidies to the Castle Mail Packet Company; and, again, in Vote 3, for the suppression of the Slave Trade, there was a sum of £4,800 to the Aden and Zanzibar Packet Service. That seemed to be a very inconvenient and a new practice. He would like to have some explanation.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, this Vote of £18,000 was exceptional. Last year the Government proposed to enter into a certain contract which would save 1646 something like £16,000, if accepted, for the conveyance of the Irish Mails by the London and North-Western Railway to Kingstown. It was not necessary to go through a long controversy; but the House rejected that proposal, and the Government reverted to the proposal of the Dublin Steam Packet Company. When the Estimates were made out last year they were made up on the supposition that the new service would be accepted by the House, and would agree to saving £16,000. Therefore, this was not an additional charge, but was a charge rendered necessary, because certain expected savings did not take place.
§ MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that his question had no reference to that matter. It was, why this Supplementary Estimate had not been proposed at the end of last Session?
§ MR. FAWCETTreplied, that when the Supplementary Estimates were made up the Government had not got the sanction of Parliament to the new arrangement. It was almost the very last thing done in the Session.
§ MR. COURTNEYsaid, that the Aden and Zanzibar subsidy ought not to come into the Postal Contracts. That service was maintained for putting down the Slave Trade. It was represented to the Government by our Consul at Zanzibar that there was nothing more effective for stopping the Slave Trade than repeated visits of the mail steamers; and he, on that account, urged the payment of this subsidy.
§ MR. BIGGARasked whether any change had been made in the amount of payment for the conveyance of the Scotch mails between Glasgow and Ardrossan? He also wished to have the opinion of the Postmaster General on the expediency of making a contract for conveying mails between Lame and Stranraer. To make a contract for that route would be an absurdity; for the only part of Ireland that would get any benefit by that route was the county of Antrim. Letters posted in any part of Scotland as far East as Edinburgh late in the evening were delivered in Belfast the following morning. With regard to the mails from England by way of Holyhead and Kingstown, in all the Irish counties except Antrim letters were delivered sooner by the present route than they could possibly be by the Larne 1647 and Stranraer route. It was possible that a little time might be saved to Belfast; but be did not believe that that would be the case under the proposed arrangements. He urged the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General not to be led away by restless people to make changes where no changes were required.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, that no decision had been come to with regard to the Larne and Stranraer project, and he could assure the hon. Member that his remarks would be considered. With regard to the mails between Glasgow and Ireland, the Post Office took the cheapest routes they could get.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, he was not disposed to raise any objections; but what was the sum asked? In former times it was only a nominal sum.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, that in former times the mails were conveyed on nominal terms; but the owners of the steamers made certain stipulations, one of which was that if mails were sent by any other route they should make a charge.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next.
§ Committee to sit again To-morrow.