HC Deb 17 June 1884 vol 289 cc585-8
MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Ministers have received confirmation of the account of the storming of Berber, sent by the Correspondent of The Times at Korosko, on 13th June, in which "an Arab, present at the attack on 23rd May," states that "the defenders bravely fought for two hours, and then, their ammunition being exhausted, the rebels 'rushed' the town, and slaughtered the garrison of 1,500 men and about 2,000 of the male population, sparing the women and children;" why the reinforcements and ammunition for which the Governor prayed on 20th April, and which Nubar Pacha advised should be given to him, were not sent; whether the fall of Berber will affect the security of Dongola; whether it is a fact, as stated by the Correspondent of The Times, that "the Mahdi's forces are within eight days' march of Dongola or Korosko," and that there are "only 300 Egyptian troops at Dongola and 300 at Korosko, with Major Kitchener's Bedouins of doubtful fidelity; whether there is "nothing to prevent the Mahdi from sweeping down on any position in Egypt within twelve hours of Cairo;" and, whether his attention has been called to the further statements, that "opinions are unanimous that Dongola should be defended at all hazards," and that "the advance of British troops is necessary, as the majority of the population freely state that they will wait to see which side is stronger before declaring themselves?"

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

The details alluded to by the hon. Member in the first paragraph of his Question have not reached the Foreign Office. The reinforcements asked for by the Governor of Berber were not sent, because, after consultation between the civil and military authorities, it appeared that, considering the season of the year and other circumstances, it was impracticable to comply with his request. The third paragraph of the hon. Member's Question is a matter of opinion. I am not in a position to state whether the Mahdi's forces are eight days' march from Dongola or Korosko; but I may point out that about 350 miles intervene between those two places. A telegram of May 30 announced that it was the intention of the Egyptian Government to raise the garrison of Korosko to a full battalion, and to send to Assouan another battalion and two or three squadrons of Egyptian Cavalry. I cannot state the exact number of men at Dongola. The fifth and sixth paragraphs of the hon. Member's Question are matters of opinion.

SIR HERBERT MAXWELL

Will the noble Lord state what were the views of the military authorities in this country on the refusal to send the reinforcements and ammunition asked for by the Governor of Berber?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

I do not think it is at all desirable that I should, from day to day, be called upon to enter into these purely military questions; and I wish to inform the hon. Baronet that military Questions ought not to be addressed to the Foreign Office.

MR. J. LOWTHER

It may have been right or not for the noble Lord to state what he did; but the noble Lord did state that there had been consultations between the civil and military authorities. To whom was he alluding?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

That is not the same Question as that asked by the hon. Member for Wigtonshire, and I have no objection to answering it. I alluded to the military authorities in Egypt.

VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE

I wish to ask, whether, in view of the fact that on April 23 Hussein Khalifa said that— "If Berber falls there will be no hope for the Soudan;" and, also, in view of the fact that Sir Evelyn Baring, on April 20, stated that the fall of Berber would seriously affect Gordon's position, any steps, and what steps, have been taken to protect General Gordon from the consequences therein anticipated?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

Evidently that is a Question which ought to be put on the Paper; but I do not see how, under any circumstances, I, or anybody else, can be expected to know what Hussein Khalifa said to somebody else.

SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT

On April 23 the Governor of Berber telegraphed— We are in great danger, and have only sixty oases of ammunition. Send ammunition quickly, and also troops which I asked for yesterday. Are we to understand that the noble Lord's answer is that the authorities decided that it would be unwise and imprudent to send troops for the relief of Berber?

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

That is exactly what I stated, and I have nothing to add.

SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT

And, therefore, Berber has been allowed to fall.

VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE

The noble Lord says the Government are not supposed to know what Hussein Khalifa has said. Are they supposed to know what Sir Evelyn Baring said? My Question was founded on what Sir Evelyn Baring said, that the fall of Berber would seriously affect the position of General Gordon.

MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

With regard to the reply of the noble Lord to paragraphs 2 and 3 of my Question, I beg to ask him, whether he will recall the telegram from Mr. Egerton to Lord Granville, dated April 23, in which he said that Nubar Pasha's opinion was that, considering the pressing demands of the Governor, the two Egyptian battalions at Assouan should be sent on at once to Berber; and, further, whether he is aware that the Prime Minister informed the House that the fall of Berber would not affect the position of Khartoum?

MR. GLADSTONE

I must protest against this practice of the hon. Member. He is constantly making grossly inaccurate statements, which he coolly ascribes to me. I never used the words he has uttered. I must say that unless the hon. Gentleman entirely changes his habit no attention ought to be paid to him.

MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

Out of respect to the Prime Minister I am justified in challenging him to give me a single instance in which I have quoted him inaccurately.

MR. GLADSTONE

Yes, Sir. [Cries of "Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

I am bound to say this sort of irregular debate is entirely out of Order, If the hon. Member will put his statement in the form of a Question, he will be in Order.

MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

I will repeat the Question now, giving the ipsissima verba of the Prime Minister, which he says I quoted grossly inaccurately. On the 24th of April the right hon. Gentleman was asked by the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill) whether if Berber fell the position of Gordon would not then become a position of peril? The right hon. Gentleman replied— We believe, according to all the information we possess, that there will be no essential change in the position of Khartoum in consequence of the fall of Berber. I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, after that, he really considers he was justified in accusing me of misquoting him?

MR. GLADSTONE

Yes, Sir, I do; both to-day and every day.

MR. J. LOWTHER

On what does the right hon. Gentleman base that accusation?

[No reply.]