INSTRUCTION TO THE COMMITTEE.

HC Deb 29 April 1884 vol 287 cc875-83

MR. MAYNE

rose to move an Instruction to the Select Committee to which this Bill had been referred.

MR. FINDLATER

rose to a point of Order. He wished to know whether it was competent for the hon. Member, being a member of the Corporation of Dublin, who had petitioned against the Bill, and whose locus slandi had been established, to move an Instruction to the Committee to protect the rights and interests of the Corporation of Dublin? He also wished to know whether it was competent for the hon. Member to move that a power should be conferred upon a Committee which they already possessed?

MR. SPEAKER

As I understand the question of Order put to me by the hon. Member, it divides itself into two parts—namely, whether the hon. Member for Tipperary, being a member of the Corporation of Dublin, is entitled to take the step he has now taken in regard to this Bill. Upon that point my opinion is clear—namely, that the fact of his being a member of the Corporation of Dublin does not prevent him from taking the action he is now taking. As to the Instruction to the Committee being in the nature of the reference of a point they have already power to deal with, I draw a distinction between a Committee on a Private Bill and Committees of this House. The Instruction to the Select Committee now about to be moved by the hon. Member is a mandatory and compulsory Instruction, and differs from an ordinary Instruction to Committees of the House, which is only permissive. Therefore, in regard to those two points, I am of opinion that the hon. Member for Tipperary is perfectly in Order.

MR. MAYNE moved— That it he an Instruction to the Committee to inquire and report to the House whether the proposed Railway will injuriously affect one of the few open spaces in the City of Dublin, viz.: the open space known as Beresford Place, situate on the north and west sides of the Custom House; and needlessly disfigure the said City; and that they have power to call Witnesses and receive evidence upon the subject. The hon. Member said, the Bill in question contained provisions which were both extraordinary and novel. If the railway were constructed as proposed in the present Bill, it would run for nearly one-half of its entire length through or over public thoroughfares in the City of Dublin, and would involve, even by the admission of the promoters themselves, a serious disfigurement of this part of the City. He thought the House would agree with him, under the circumstances, that something more than the ordinary reference to a Committee was necessary; and he therefore begged to move that the Motion standing in his name on the Paper be adopted.

MR. R. POWER

seconded the Motion.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That it be an Instruction to the Committee to inquire and report to the House whether the proposed Railway will injuriously affect one of the few open spaces in the City of Dublin, viz.: the open space known as Beresford Place, situate on the north and west sides of the Custom House; and needlessly disfigure the said City; and that they have power to call Witnesses and receive evidence upon the subject."—(Mr. Mayne.)

MR. M. BROOKS

said, it so happened that the proposed railway would run adjacent to, and would seriously affect, property of great value belonging to a Company of which he had the honour to be Chairman; and as he was also interested in the Corporation, no matter upon which side he voted—whether with the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Mayne), or the promoters of the Bill—he was open to the imputation of being actuated by motives of personal consideration. He thought, however, that he ought to do his duty without fear or affection, and he ought to follow what he believed to be the general interests of the citizens of Dublin in the matter. Without any desire to be offensive to his hon. Friend the Member for Tipperary, he was bound to say that he thought the Motion was one of a most insidious character, and that if it were carried it would have the effect of killing the Bill. It would, practically, kill the Bill, because there would not be sufficient time to construct any alternative line. There were no limits of deviation which would enable the Company to construct the line. There could be no doubt as to the desirability of constructing this railway. He was glad to see the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General present in his place, because the right hon. Gentleman had, both in the House and elsewhere, pointed out the necessity for connecting the railways which now arrived and terminated in Dublin, but which were now without any central station, such as this Bill made provision for. And there could be no doubt that this railway, if constructed, would, more or less, disfigure the City. He was not aware that any railway was ever constructed in a large town which was not, more or less, a disfigurement. But he was bound to say that the disfigurement, of which the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Mayne) complained, would be a much smaller evil, and only a minor matter of importance, compared with the success of a Motion which would prevent the construction of this railway at all. He should, therefore, feel bound to vote against the proposal of the hon. Member, repeating, that if the Committee should employ its time in doing that which the hon. Member desired, and which they had already full power to do if they were satisfied of its necessity, they would effectually kill the Bill. Under these circumstances, he should vote against the proposal of the hon. Member.

COLONEL KING-HARMAN

said, that he was not open to the imputation of being personally interested in this railway in any way whatever; and it was simply upon the ground of public convenience that he should vote against the Motion of the hon. Member for Tipperary. He quite agreed that the construction of the railway through the proposed route to Beresford Place would be, to a certain extent, a disfigurement of the City, and that it would block up one of the finest views from Carlisle Bridge; but the communication between Westland Row and Amiens Street was of the utmost importance, so far as the convenience of the mails was concerned. At the present moment great and vexatious delay was occasioned, and there was a considerable amount of obstruction in the thoroughfares, in consequence of the present mode of proceeding. He, therefore, could not conceive how anyone who had no idea of the importance of securing the rapid transit of the mails should oppose this Bill in the manner in which the hon. Member for Tipperary proposed to do. The hon. Member for the City of Dublin (Mr. Brooks) said the opposition to the Bill would kill it in its present stage, because it was impossible to deviate the line as laid down in the deposited plans. He was glad to see the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General present. He was quite satisfied, from the attention the right hon. Gentleman had given to the subject, that he would be able to give the House his views as to the importance of making this communication.

MR. FINDLATER

said, he could conceive no other object the Motion could have than to prejudice the views of the Committee with regard to the Bill when it came before them. The hon. Member proposed that the House should do a most undesirable thing—namely, that it should instruct the Committee to take certain matters into consideration. He thought the House would require something more than the statement made by the hon. Member before they consented to accept his Motion. The hon. Member proposed— That it be an Instruction to the Committee to inquire and report to the House whether the proposed Railway will injuriously effect one of the few open spaces in the City of Dublin, viz.: the open space known as Beresford Place, situate on the north and west sides of the Custom House; and needlessly disfigure the said City. He (Mr. Findlater) had been for 40 years a citizen of Dublin; and he thought any person who was acquainted with the piece of ground in question would say that it was anything but an open space of a beautiful nature. There was not a particle of grass upon it, nor a tree; and during the whole time he had passed in Dublin he had never, in his life, seen a child playing upon it. This open space was attached to the Custom House; it was surrounded by stone posts which were connected together by iron chains; the space was entirely gravelled; and it really formed a most unsightly object. He might say, further, that the action of the Corporation in the matter was not generally approved of by the citizens of Dublin. He had heard a great many expressions of opinion with regard to the question; and he trusted the House would not consent to grant a mandatory Instruction to the Committee, when it was open to them in their discretion to hear evidence with regard to the whole matter. In the words of the Petitioners' own prayer the locus standi of the Corporation of Dublin was established; and they prayed that in case the Bill was allowed to pass into law certain clauses and other provisions would be necessary for the protection of the Corporation and citizens of Dublin. It was, therefore, perfectly clear that it would be open to the Committee to hear evidence which the House itself could not hear. The House must rely wholly upon, ex parte statements, and he thought that was an extremely objectionable thing. There could be doubt whatever that this was one of the most important lines which had been proposed for some time. Great interest was taken by Irish Members, of all classes and sections, in the carrying out of the object of the Bill—namely, the acceleration of the Irish mails; and it would be too bad, when they were on the point of reaching the goal, that their efforts were to be frustrated by a sentimental objection with regard to the beauty of the view from Carlisle Bridge. There was a railway bridge in the neighbourhood of the House of Commons; but no one could say that the bridge at Charing Cross disfigured the approaches of the House, or very much interfered with the view. He understood that it was impossible to carry the tunnel under the bed of the Liffey; and the Harbour and Dock Board, who had charge of the river, would not allow any bridge to be constructed eastward of the Custom House, so that nothing further could be done if this railway were not allowed to go on, and the connection between the Dublin and Wexford Railway and the Northern Railway for the acceleration of the mails would be frustrated altogether. Personally, he had no interest in the matter beyond that of a citizen of Dublin who was anxious to see this communication established. It was upon that ground that he opposed the Motion of the hon. Gentleman.

MR. SEXTON

said, the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Findlater) must be very hard driven for an argument when he compared the case of Hungerford Bridge with the proposed railway, seeing that Hungerford Bridge was more than a quarter of a mile from the Houses of Parliament; whereas the structure proposed to be erected under this Bill was only 54 feet from, the Custom House at Dublin. The hon. Gentleman seemed to think that an open space was of no value unless it had grass upon it. Now, the City of Dublin had very few open spaces. Those spaces possessed great value, whether they had grass upon them or not; and, so far as the Custom House was concerned, it was one of the most beautiful buildings in Europe. If this mass of masonry were allowed to be built close beside it the building would be completely disfigured, and the beauty of it would be entirely lost. The hon. Member for Monaghan said he had been for 40 years a citizen of Dublin. With all respect to the position, and experience of the hon. Member, he thought the Corporation of Dublin, who had passed, by a considerable majority, the vote which the hon. Member now objected to, were quite as good judges of the interests of the City of Dublin as the hon. Member. The hon. Member for the City of Dublin (Mr. Brooks) asserted that the passing of this Instruction would kill the Bill. Considering the early period of the Session, it could not be said that the inquiry which the passing of this Instruction would involve would kill the Bill. It must be a very bad Bill, indeed, if an inquiry of this kind would kill it in the month of April. He invited the House to notice that the only matter his hon. Friend desired the Committee to inquire into was, whether the proposed railway would not injuriously affect one of the few open spaces in the said City? Surely no harm could be done to any interest by an intelligent and rational inquiry; and he ventured to hope that the House would have regard to the opinion of the Corporation, and assent to the Motion of his hon. Friend without supporting the opposition of the hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Brooks), whose interest in this particular case was not that of the Corporation of Dublin. He trusted the House would have regard to the opinion of the Governing Body of the City. Certainly, if the Corporation of an English town made such an appeal the House would have no hesitation in granting all that was asked for.

MR. P. MARTIN

desired to make a remark in reference to the statement just made by the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton). It must not be assumed that the members of the Corporation of Dublin were unanimously of opinion that the Bill should be rejected. Indeed, the Resolution in favour of petitioning against the Bill was not even passed by a considerable majority of the Corporation of Dublin. On the contrary, the Petition against it was adopted by the Corporation, after considerable discussion in a small House of 30, by a majority of only two. It would, therefore, be seen that a divided opinion existed with regard to the measure itself even among the Corporation of Dublin. There was another matter which the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Findlater) had correctly put before the House. The House was now called on, without having the advantage of the evidence of the promoters, to adopt a Resolution of a most exceptional and unusual character, which would abrogate the discretion given to the Committee, and prejudge one of the matters for their decision. It must be borne in mind that the object of this Bill was one of great importance to the entire of Ireland. It had been promoted not only by influential merchants and citizens resident in Dublin, but also at the instance of the Cities of Cork and Belfast, which desired to have a line which should connect all the different railways in Dublin, and enable a passenger to go on from London without change of carriage when he arrived at Kingstown. If this Bill should be passed, a passenger would be transferred direct to Cork or Belfast; but if a mandatory Instruction was to be given to the Committee upon an unusual matter of this kind, it would simply amount to a refusal to allow the Committee to enter into the consideration of the real question. He respectfully submitted to the House whether it was desirable to make a change in the Bill in this summary manner when they had the hon. Member for the City of Dublin (Mr. Brooks), and the hon. and gallant Member for the County of Dublin (Colonel King- Harman) both of them anxious that the Bill should go before a Committee like any other ordinary Bill to be inquired into upon its merits? If there were any defects in the engineering details of the measure, or anything which would destroy this open space, all the circumstances could be fully inquired into, and a decision of the Committee obtained upon every point. He, therefore, did not see why the House should now consent to prejudice the decision of the Committee by doing that which would practically amount to a reversal of the second reading of the Bill.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he was disposed to controvert the statement of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Kilkenny (Mr. P. Martin). The hon. and learned Member said that if the Motion of the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Mayne) were carried the result would be to kill the Bill. He did not think it would do anything of the sort; but he understood the Motion simply to ask the Committee to direct their attention to a particular branch of the subject. It did no more than that. The hon. and learned Gentleman also said that there was only a majority of two in the Town Council of Dublin who were in favour of this proposition. He (Mr. Biggar) was told by his hon. Friend the Member for Tipperary that that majority of two was only on a minor side issue; and that when the question whether or not a Petition should be presented to give protection against injury to this open space was put, a majority in favour of the Petition was nearly three-fourths against one-fourth. So that a large majority were in favour of the present Motion, and they might be fairly assumed to represent the opinions of the citizens of Dublin. At the same time, he must say for himself that if he had had the slightest idea that this Motion would be likely to injure the possibility of the Bill being passed into law he would be very sorry to vote for it. He thought it a most desirable Bill; but that it should be carried out in the best way. It was most desirable that there should be a connection between all the railways in Dublin established for the purpose of facilitating the conveyance of the mails, not, perhaps, after all, that it would be of so much benefit to Dublin itself as it would be to other parts of Ireland. No one would deny that it would be of the utmost benefit to other parts of Ireland to facilitate the transit of the mails; and he would, therefore, not be disposed to throw any obstacle in the way of the passage of the Bill, although, at the same time, he thought the question raised by his hon. Friend the Member for Tipperary was a very reasonable one. He had no doubt that Beresford Place was very beautiful; and if any means could be adopted for preventing the disfigurement of the Custom House on that open space it should be adopted. One special reason in favour of the Bill was that it would have a tendency to kill a rival scheme. He believed that most of his hon. Friends who supported this Instruction to the Committee would not be prepared to vote for it if they thought it was likely to interfere with the success of the Bill; but, on the whole, considering all the circumstances of the case, he thought the House would not be doing wrong to give this Instruction to the Committee.

MR. GIBSON

wished to say a word before the Motion was put. He thought the proposal had been temperately and reasonably discussed. No doubt there was some difference of opinion in reference to the matter, and all questions where there was a difference of opinion had to be decided on the balance. As far as he could find out, the general public opinion in Ireland against that of the Corporation of Dublin was a large and substantial one. The feeling in support of the Motion was not certainly very large even in the Corporation; and unquestionably the great preponderance of opinion, not only in Dublin, but in Ireland generally, was in favour of the Bill. It was said that if the Motion of the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Mayne) were carried it would have the effect of killing the Bill. He was sure that was not the desire of the hon. Member, nor did he think it was a desire of any Member for Ireland who had considered the question. He therefore thought, under all the circumstances of the case, that it would be wiser, and, on the whole, more calculated to work out a good result for all the Irish interests, not to pass the Motion of the hon. Member.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 26; Noes 145: Majority 119.—(Div. List, No. 76.)