HC Deb 24 July 1883 vol 282 cc416-22

Order for Third Reading read, and discharged.

Bill re-committed.

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 (Extent and short title of the Act).

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 19, leave out "nine," and insert "ten."—(Mr. Hibbert.)

Question proposed, "That the word nine' stand part of the Clause."

MR. BIGGAR

moved to report Progaess. He did not object to going into Committee on the Bill; but his hon. Friend the Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell), had telegraphed to him asking what stage the Bill had reached and intimating that he was interested in an Amendment which he was anxious to bring forward, and he hoped to be in his place on Thursday. He (Mr. Biggar) was unable to put forward the reasons and arguments of his hon. Friend; but he simply asked the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to consent to a postponement to Thursday.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Biggar.)

MR. STUART-WORTLEY

said, he hoped the Committee would not consent to the Motion. It would be rather hard upon the promoters of the Bill that they should, after waiting for this, the last Order of the Day, postpone it, simply because the hon. Member for Cork did not find it worth his while to attend. The Motion for re-committal was duly given Notice of, and it was well known it was coming on.

MR. HEALY

said, he did not think the hon. Gentleman would lose anything by assenting to the Motion. It was an unusual request he was aware, and he quite agreed that an hon. Member should be in his place when a Bill was called on in which he was interested. But an unusual course had been taken with the Bill, and Committee Amendments had been put down when the Bill had reached the stage of third reading. Why that should be done he did not understand. Amendments had been put down which hon. Members had not had an opportunity of seeing; and his hon. Friend might not have supposed that Amendments would be introduced when third reading was put down, so the request was not altogether unreasonable. The slight delay would not hinder the ultimate passage of the Bill; and the hon. Gentleman might accord this courtesy to the hon. Member for the City of Cork.

MR. COURTNEY

said, of course, the determination of this question rested with the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Stuart-Wortley); but he thought the latter had fair reason to complain of the stopping of the Bill now. The Amendments had been on the Paper for a week; and, as Members were well aware, the Bill, in its various stages, had been discussed, and had been a long time before the House. If the hon. Member for Sheffield consented, he should not object; but he thought a very slight case indeed had been made out for postponement.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he had only that afternoon received a telegram from his hon. Friend asking what stage the Bill had reached; and he had wired back that it was down for third reading; and all he could do was to try to get it postponed to Thursday, when his hon. Friend would be present. He (Mr. Parnell) was interested in an Amendment in reference to some Savings Bank in Cork; and all that was asked was that he should have the opportunity of putting forward his views. If the hon. Member for the City of Cork should not attend on Thursday, no obstacle would be placed in the way of the Bill going through its remaining stages; and nothing would be lost by this, for if the Bill went through Committee to-night the Report stage would still have to be deferred to Thursday.

MR. STUART-WORTLEY

said, the question was between the convenience of the Committee, the hon. Member for the City of Cork, and himself; and, without wishing in the slightest degree to be discourteous to the hon. Member for the City of Cork, he must point out that to postpone the Bill at all would be to postpone it for a fortnight, for he should not be able to be present for that time. It was most important in the conduct of the Bill to take the Committee stage at once; and the convenience of Members who were present when the Bill was known to be coming on ought to be considered before that of a Member who was absent.

MR. HEALY

said, if the hon. Member carried the Bill through the present stage, he could not take the Report stage until Thursday, because his hon. and faithful Friend the Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) would block the Bill at once with a Notice. In point of fact, the hon. Member would be no farther advanced. There was reason, of course, in what he said—that the hon. Member for the City of Cork should be present if he had Amendments to move; but this request was urged merely as a matter of courtesy. In the absence of the hon. Member for Sheffield on Thursday, another of the Gentlemen whose names were on the back of the Bill might take charge of it.

MR. R. N. FOWLER

said, he believed it was the duty of every Member to be present when the House was sitting; and it was no reason for postponing Business that an eminent Member of the House was away.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he did not wish to be unreasonable, and he would not press the matter further. He would telegraph to his hon. Friend that the Report stage would be taken on Thursday, and would urge him to be in his place then.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Question put, and negatived.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 (Definition of Terms).

On the Motion of Mr. STUART-WORTLEY, Amendments made, in page 1, by leaving out lines 26 and 27; in page 2, by leaving out line 7; and in line 19, after "Bank," by inserting "or of a Trustee Savings Bank Insurance."

Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3 (38 & 39 Vict. c. 60. s. 15 (3), (4), 39 & 40 Vict. c. 45. s. 11 (5), (6), 39 & 90 Vict. c. 35. s. 10, 26 & 27 Viet. e. 87. ss. 41 to 43, and 45 & 46 Viet. c. 51. s. 6 (e), extended to sums not over £100).

On the Motion of Mr. STUART-WORTLEY, Amendment made, in page 2, line 28, after "1863," by inserting— Section ten of an Act passed in the seventh and eight years of the reign of Her present Majesty intituled 'An Act to amend the law relating to Savings Banks, and to the purchase of Government Annuities through the medium of Savings Banks.'

Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4 (How a nomination may be made) agreed to.

Clause 5 (Nominations by savings bank depositors).

On the Motion of Mr. TOMLINSON, Amendment made, in page 2, line 27, by leaving out "to" and inserting "be."

Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6 (In 39 & 40 Vict. c. 45, s. 11 (5), (6), shares and interest extended to loans and deposits) agreed to.

Clause 7 (Provisions in case of intestacy and no nomination) agreed to.

Clause 8 (Provision for illegitimacy).

On the Motion of Mr. STUART-WORTLEY, Amendment made, in page 3, line 27, by leaving out "may" to "approve" in line 30.

Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 9 (Payments made by directors under the power above given).

On the Motion of Mr. STUART-WORTLEY, Amendments made, in page 3, line 40, by leaving out "without prejudice to the remedy of;" and, in page 3, lines 41 and 42, by leaving out from "claimant" to end of Clause, and inserting— Shall have remedy for recovery of such money, so paid as aforesaid, against the person or persons who shall have received the same.

Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 10 (Directors to give notice of interest nominated over £50 to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue).

On the Motion of Mr. STUART-WORTLEY, Amendment made, in page 4, line 5, by leaving out "or her."

On the Motion of Mr. TOMLINSON, Amendment made, in page 4, line 5, after the second "any," by inserting "society or."

Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 11, after "of," by inserting "probate or letters of administration or."—(Mr. Stuart-Wortley.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. COURTNEY

said, he could not assent to this Amendment. It would take away a necessary defence of the Revenue in requiring, before a claim was made good, that the Trustees should require a stamped registered Legacy Duty receipt.

MR. STUART-WORTLEY

said, it would not take away the protection to the Revenue, and the same arrangement was made in the Savings Bank Act. The alternative was left; and it appeared to him that the production of the probate or letters of administration ought to be sufficient proof that it was the right person; and the fact of the probate having been given ought to be sufficient security that the Inland Revenue had been dealt with.

MR. TOMLINSON

said, that a person taking out probate had the right to receive the money. If a rich person took it out, the fund to which he would go for expenses was the balance at the banker s; and he could not see why, when a person was in comparatively poor circumstances, an altogether different system should be enacted.

MR. WHITLEY

said, he thought the Revenue was abundantly guarded by the alternative of legacy receipt or probate; and he did not see why the smaller cases should be dealt with under a different law.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 14; Noes 23: Majority 9.—(Div. List, No. 230.)

On the Motion of Mr. STUART-WORTLEY, Amendment made, in page 4, line 25, after "making," by inserting "any."

Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.

MR. HIBBERT

proposed, after Clause 10, to add the following new Clause:— (Island of Jersey.) As respects the Island of Jersey, the following provision shall have effect. When any sum of money becomes payable on the death of a member, such sum shall, in default of any direction or nomination such as is contemplated by The Friendly Societies Act 1875,' or by this Act, be paid to the deceased member's legal representative according to the Law of Jersey.

New Clause (Island of Jersey)—(Mr. Hibbert,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause be now read a second time," put, and agreed to.

Clause added to the Bill.

Bill reported.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill, as amended, be now taken into Consideration."—(Mr. Stuart-Wortley.)

MR. BIGGAR

said, he thought this was unreasonable under the circumstances, seeing, as he had already stated, his hon. Friend the Member for Cork City (Mr. Parnell) had said he was specially interested in the Bill, as representing one of the largest Savings Banks in Ireland at Cork. He must protest against this stage of the Bill being taken before Thursday.

MR. COURTNEY

hoped the hon. Member would consent to the Bill being put down for consideration of Report on Thursday.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill, as amended, to be considered on Thursday.