[BILL 253.] SECOND READING. (Hansard, 19 July 1883)

§ SIR MASSEY LOPES
said, he should like to ascertain from the Civil Lord of the Admiralty—to get, in fact, a positive assurance from him—that there was no intention to reduce the number of boys in the Greenwich School. It was a school well recognized, in this and other countries, as a nursery for seamen, and it would be a great mistake to interfere with it. With the objects of the Bill he quite sympathized. If it was thought right and proper that a certain number of boys should have a claim on the Admiralty to be educated, though not physically fit for the Naval Service, he could have no objection; but he did want to get a positive assurance from the Civil Lord, who was the Representative of the Admiralty, and entitled to speak for them on this subject, that there was no intention to decrease the number of boys—namely, 1,000—who were at present educated in Greenwich Hospital School.

§ CAPTAIN PRICE
said, the principal object was to make provision for pensions for widows, and in some cases, he believed, for the orphans of seamen in Her Majesty's Navy; and he thought that those who were in charge of the Bill ought to give them some idea as to what the measure would actually cost the country by-and-bye. There was no scale in the Bill for the pensions which were to be given to the different classes of widows of petty officers and seamen, so that they were not able to judge what it would eventually cost the country. His hon. Friend had told him, in answer to a Question the other day, that the Vote for this year would be about £1,200; but, of course, that would go on accumulating in amount from year to year, and in 15 or 20 years' time it would amount to a very considerable sum, especially if there were any further catastrophes such as the loss of the Captain. In a few years' time there might be a charge of £20,000 or £30,000 on the Greenwich Hospital Funds. Those funds had always been looked upon as a charity; their principal object was to provide 2039 pensions for old seamen. In former days there used to be a hospital in which the old seamen lived; but that was abolished some years ago, and the funds of Greenwich Hospital were appropriated in the form of Government pensions to seamen, who got 4d. a-day at 55 years of age, and at 65 that sum was increased to 9d. Now, what he wanted to say was this—when a charge for pensions to widows came to be a considerable sum, it must, of course, result in this, that the number of old seamen who were receiving pensions would be very much reduced. The Estimate for Greenwich Hospital last year was £155,000. That was the total expenditure; and out of that £120,000 was paid for these pensions of which he was speaking, and to the old men—irrespective of officers and others—£100,000 was given in pensions. If that £100,000 was to be reduced by-and-bye, as he thought it might be, by £20,000 or £30,000, it would make a very serious difference to these old seamen. At present there were about 12,000 men who were receiving these pensions; but by-and-bye that number must be very considerably reduced, and a very large number of widows might come to claim pensions, especially if some great catastrophe were to happen—if some large war ship were to be lost. He wanted to see that sufficient provision was made to provide for these pensions in future; and if there should not be, and if they found that they could not get sufficient money from Greenwich Hospital to pay them and to keep up the pensions for the old seamen, then that there should be some pledge given that the Board of Admiralty of the day would come to Parliament for a further grant, or, otherwise, someone undoubtedly would have to suffer. If the widows were to have the whole of their pensions as provided by this Bill, it was clear that the men would not be able to get theirs, and he wished to have some guarantee on this point. The Admiralty were taking very large powers in the matter, and they might extend those powers to a great variety of cases—not only to the case of widows whose husbands died in war, but to those whose husbands died from the effects of any disease. When any man died in the Service from any cause his widow might be given a pension from this Greenwich 2040 Hospital Fund. He was rather sorry that the wish which the men expressed some years ago to form a fund of their own had been altogether ignored. He had tried for many years in this House to give effect to that wish. The wish of the men was mentioned by Mr. Ward Hunt in 1875, and that right hon. Gentleman gave it the very foremost place in his Navy Estimates of that day. He (Captain Price) was very sorry that something had not been done. Had the men been allowed to subscribe, and been assisted by the Greenwich Hospital Funds under the conditions of this Bill, or from moneys voted by Parliament, some such fund might have been got up, and it would have been far more satisfactory than a Bill of this kind, the need of which he really did not see.

§ SIR THOMAS BRASSEY
said, in answer to the question put by the hon. Baronet (Sir Massey Lopes), there was no intention whatever of reducing the number of boys in Greenwich School. The more liberal arrangements proposed for the boys who were not physically capable would be in addition to the provisions hitherto made for the sons of our seamen. With reference to the question raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Devonport (Captain Price), he could assure him that there was no intention whatever of reducing the age pensions, as awarded under the existing Regulations. He, therefore, hoped that the Bill would be for the benefit of the Service, and that it would be generally approved.