HC Deb 06 April 1883 vol 277 cc1636-8
MR. CROPPER

asked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he can now inform the House that our late allies Montsioa and Mankoroane are allowed to obtain ammunition freely from the Cape, for self-defence against Boer freebooters; and, whether he has made any further plan for a proposal to them of a subsidy and a separate location?

MR. EVELYN ASHLEY

lam afraid, Sir, I can add but little to what I have several times said in this House on the matter. But, perhaps, to put the House in possession of the view of the question taken by the Cape Government, with whom, as the Government of a self-governing Colony, rests the decision, I cannot do better than read one of the last communications received from them, telegraphed as follows:— Traders can only obtain permits to remove ammunition from the Colony on giving bonds, under Act 13 of 1877, undertaking not to dispose of ammunition to Natives. The existing law and the conditions of the bond are, doubtless, often violated by traders; but Ministers state it would be impossible for them to take any steps which might appear to countenance free trade in munitions of war while they are endeavouring to obtain throughout South Africa, in accordance with the spirit of existing engagements, some uniform action for restricting and controlling the trade. I may again remind the hon. Gentleman that the Cape Colony is a self-governing Colony.

MR. CROPPER

What is the date of the despatch?

MR. EVELYN ASHLEY

The 28th of March. With reference to the second part of the Question, I think the hon. Gentleman, as well as the right hon. Member for East Gloucestershire (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach), are under a little misapprehension as to our position in the matter of a location and a subsidy. What we have done is this. We have informed those two Chiefs that if they were driven to elect to leave their country we shall be prepared to provide for them elsewhere. But until we know that they are desirous of availing themselves of our offer of assistance we do not go into details as to what measure shall be adopted.

MR. CROPPER

asked if ammunition was denied to our late allies?

MR. EVELYN ASHLEY

said that undoubtedly it was, as far as the Government were concerned. The Chiefs must obtain their ammunition by means of ordinary trade.

MR. CROPPER

asked whether it appeared to the hon. Gentleman, as it did to him, that ammunition had not been denied to those Chiefs?

MR. EVELYN ASHLEY,

in reply, said, that ammunition was denied to them as an open transaction with the Government, and it could only be obtained by ordinary trade.

MR. CROPPER

asked whether the same rule held good with the Transvaal Boers? Could they buy ammunition?

MR. EVELYN ASHLEY

said, he believed that the Transvaal Government had no such regulation.

MR. CROPPER

asked whether we sold ammunition freely to the Transvaal Government?

LORD JOHN MANNERS

I wish to ask whether the terms mentioned as having been proposed to the Chiefs include the tribes under them; and also whether those terms are proposed to them in a more extended form than has been mentioned to the House? Are the Chiefs informed at all of the nature of the location offered to them, and of its distance from their present land?

MR. EVELYN ASHLEY

No, Sir; our communications with the Chiefs have been telegraphic, through the High Commissioner, and they have gone into no details.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

The hon. Gentleman has not answered the Question as to the tribes.

MR. EVELYN ASHLEY

No, Sir; we have confined ourselves to the Chiefs and their immediate followers.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

Is it the intention of Her Majesty's Government to make any proposal as to the safety of the tribes?

MR. EVELYN ASHLEY

I think that the best way to answer the Question without Notice will be to ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the tribes number 25,000 persons?

LORD JOHN MANNERS

In answer to that Question, I beg to say that I am aware of the numerical proportions of these tribes; and I hope that my hon. Friend will not suppose that because they are numerous therefore they are to be neglected.