§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the crimes charged against Arabi Pacha, and the punishments attached to those crimes, have been matters of arrangement between Her Majesty's Government and the Egyptian Government, or whether the negotiations between Her Majesty's Government and the Egyptian Government related only to procedure; whether, when Arabi Pacha was delivered up by Her Majesty's Forces to the Egyptian Government, it was known to Her Majesty's Government that he was not to be tried under any known Code; and whether Her Majesty's Government, being now aware that Arabi Pacha cannot be tried under any known or specified Code of Law, Military or Civil, will direct the Egyptian Government to discontinue the present proceedings, and to order his immediate release? Might I ask the hon. Baronet to answer these Questions seriatim?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEI have already repeatedly answered the first branch of this Question in the negative. Her Majesty's Government neither knew when Arabi Pacha was captured, nor now know that he was, or is to be, tried in any other manner than according to Egyptian law, whether codified or not. If he can show that the offences charged against him are not military offences against Egyptian law, triable by court martial, that defence will be open to him. As to the forms of procedure, the procedure, according to the existing practice, would have denied the prisoners the benefit of counsel and of the 1306 publicity of trial; and the only thing which has been done ex post facto, to quote a phrase that has been made use of in Questions put in this House, is to secure these benefits to the prisoners.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLI wish to call the attention of the hon. Baronet to the fact that he has, unintentionally, within the last few minutes, given two answers absolutely contradictory one of the other. In answer to one Question he states that there was no arrangement between the Egyptian and English Governments with respect to the crimes charged against Arabi Pasha or the punishments to be inflicted; and he stated, only two minutes before, to the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bourke), that Her Majesty's Government, by Lord Granville's despatch of the 20th of August, endeavoured to arrange that Arabi should be tried as a common criminal.
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEWhat was in view at that time was his trial on certain charges. He is being tried on these charges and upon other charges; but there has been no arrangement on the subject, and the charges have simply been communicated to us.
§ MR. BOURKEIs Arabi not to be tried by court martial? I understood the hon. Baronet to say that if Arabi could show that certain charges against him could not be proved, then he is not in that case to be tried by court martial.
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEThe words I used were that if he could show that the offences charged against him were not military offences, triable by court martial under the Egyptian law, that defence will be open to him.
MR. GORSTThe hon. Baronet says that Her Majesty's Government made no arrangement as to punishment. Am I to understand that the paragraph of Lord Granville's despatch on that point is withdrawn?
§ SIR CHARLES W. DILKEI must refer the hon. and learned Member to the Prime Minister's answer to Question 43, which turns upon this subject.