HC Deb 04 May 1882 vol 269 cc211-7

Parish Burgess Lists; Burgess Rolls; Ward Rolls.

Clause 45 (Preparation and revision of parish burgess lists) agreed to.

Clause 46 (The burgess roll and ward rolls).

MR. BIGGAR

moved, in page 18, lines 13 and 14, to leave out "twenty-second," and insert "fifteenth." It was found that in the case of a contested municipal election too short a time was allowed to elapse between the completion of the burgess roll and the election. At present only eight days were allowed for preparation; he thought 15 days were quite few enough, and he proposed this Amendment with the object of granting more time in case of municipal contests.

Amendment proposed, in page 18, lines 13 and 14, to leave out "twenty-second," and insert "fifteenth."—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question proposed, "That 'twenty-second' stand part of the Clause."

MR. HIBBERT

said, he was sorry he could not assent to the Amendment. It was found quite impossible to have the Register completed by the 15th of October. He was aware that inconvenience arose; but he was afraid it could not be avoided.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he was glad the hon. Gentleman recognized the disadvantage of the present system. Perhaps by the next Sitting of the Committee the hon. Gentleman would be able to suggest a compromise by the adoption of a date between the 15th and 22nd. If the hon. Gentleman could consent to change the 22nd into the 18th, and thus allow a few days extra, it would be of immense advantage in case of a contested election.

MR. HIBBERT

said, he would reconsider the matter, and, if it was possible, suggest a change of date. He could not, however, make any definite promise in the matter.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. BIGGAR

said, his next Amendment had reference to the point raised by his hon. Friend the Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy). He proposed, in page 18, to leave out sub-section 3, namely— The names in the burgess roll shall be numbered consecutively, without reference to wards or to polling districts, unless in any case the Council direct that the same be numbered by wards or by polling districts. In his opinion the burgess roll should be made out in wards or polling districts, because in the case of a contested election nothing was more annoying than to find the streets of the borough arranged alphabetically. He knew there was a provision that the names of voters in each street should be arranged in the order in which they appeared in the Rate Book; but it seemed to him that sub-section 3 of this clause was one which, if adopted, would cause great inconvenience without ensuring any corresponding advantage.

Amendment proposed in page 18, leave out sub-section (3).—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question proposed, "That the subsection stand part of the Clause."

MR. HIBBERT

said, at the present time the law required that the names in the burgess roll should be numbered consecutively without reference to the polling district; but as some Municipalities desired to have the names numbered by wards or polling districts the words had been inserted in the sub-section— Unless in any case the Council direct that the same be numbered by wards or by polling districts. Those words had been put in on purpose to allow those Municipalities who wished it to have the names numbered by wards or polling districts, and, on the other hand, to allow the old system to be retained wherever it was desired. The sub-section was very elastic, and he thought it was well it should be so. He did not think it wise to lay down any definite principle.

MR. BIGGAR

said, that in another part of the Bill provision was made that the lists should be made in a certain way; this sub-section, therefore, conflicted with a succeeding portion of the Bill. He did not see why the hon. Gentleman could not agree to a substantial Amendment, and thus guard against many difficulties which now presented themselves during a municipal election.

MR. HIBBERT

said, if the hon. Member would allow the matter to stand over, he (Mr. Hibbert) would see whether the words could not be transposed, in order to bring the latter part of the sub-section into greater prominence.

MR. LEAMY

said, he was disposed to let the sub-section stand unaltered.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he would not ask the Committee to divide; but he would appeal to the hon. Gentleman to amend the clause, if he could possibly see his way. He (Mr. Biggar) knew that a Corporation was generally the dominant party in a borough, and wished to keep matters as they were. He was convinced the Amendment was desirable in the interest of minorities.

MR. WHITLEY

said, he hoped the clause would be retained as at present framed. In the borough of Liverpool, for instance, there were 120 polling districts; and, therefore, it was very important that the Council should have the power to divide the burgess list into districts. It would be almost impracticable to make a consecutive list.

MR. BIGGAR

said, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whitley) had strongly supported the view which he (Mr. Biggar) took of the matter—namely, that it should be imperative that the burgess list should be divided into wards or polling districts. He did not think it should be within the power of the dominant Party to decide whether the list should be arranged in alphabetical order or not.

MR. HIBBERT

promised to look into the question.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 47 (Arrangement of lists and rolls).

MR. BIGGAR

moved, in page 19, to leave out lines 4, 5, and 6—namely— (2.) Subject to any such direction, and to the provisions of this Act as to polling districts, the arrangement of the lists and rolls shall be alphabetical. He held that these words were in entire opposition to another part of the Bill, and one which the hon. Gentleman had assented to.

Amendment proposed, in page 19, leave out lines 4, 5, and 6.—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. HIBBERT

said, the object of the words proposed to be left out was to allow Municipalities to act as they considered best. He did not think it desirable to lay down a hard-and-fast line as to the way in which the various municipal lists should be made out.

MR. BIGGAR

said, the arrangement of the list alphabetically entailed considerable inconvenience upon collectors and other officials, as well as upon candidates for municipal honours. He really could not see on what ground the hon. Gentleman should insist upon the retention of the lines; and, therefore, he moved their omission.

MR. HIBBERT

said, he would consider the matter with the other postponed clauses, if the hon. Member would bring it up on Report.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause agreed to.

Clause 48 (Correction of burgess roll) agreed to.

Clause 49 (Printing and sale of burgess roll and other documents) agreed to.

Clause 50 (Separate list of persons qualified to be councillors but not to be burgesses).

MR. BIGGAR

said, he had given Notice of his intention to move the omission of this clause. Inasmuch as the clause raised the question of the alphabetical arrangement of the burgess lists and other matters, which had been already decided, he would not press his Amendment. Perhaps, however, the hon. Gentleman, when he was considering the general question of the alphabetical lists, would consider whether he could not consent to the omission of the 3rd sub-section of this clause—namely— The town clerk shall arrange the names entered in these lists, when revised, in alphabetical order as a separate list (in this Act called the separate non-resident list), with an appropriate heading, at the end of the burgess roll.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 51 to 58, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 59 (Mode of conducting poll at contested election).

MR. BIGGAR

moved, in page 21, line 18, to leave out "four" and. insert "six." His object in proposing this Amendment was to give the working people a greater opportunity of recording their votes. The question had been much discussed, and he believed there was a strong opinion held by many people that the hours of polling should be extended. He need not offer any arguments in favour of the Amendment.

Amendment proposed, in page 21, line 18, leave out "four" and insert "six."—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question proposed, "That 'four' stand part of the Clause."

MR. HIBBERT

said, the Ballot Act Continuance Bill, which was now before the House, provided that Municipalities should limit the hour of polling to 8 o'clock. Seeing that that Bill dealt with both Parliamentary and municipal elections, he did not think it desirable to assent to the present Amendment.

MR. LEAMY

said, he hoped his hon. Friend (Mr. Biggar) would not press the Amendment. To extend the hours of polling to 6 o'clock would be of little advantage, because the majority of working men did not cease work until 6 o'clock.

MR. BIGGAR

could foresee great difficulty and inconvenience if they were to have one Act laying down one principle and another Act laying down another principle. The result would be confusion, and one set of Judges would decide one way and another set of Judges another.

MR. HIBBERT

said, he did not think the difficulty would arise which the hon. Gentleman imagined. The Ballot Act Continuance Bill provided that a Town Council should decide whether they would keep a poll open until 4 o'clock or until 8 o'clock. If they decided in favour of the later hour they would pass a resolution accordingly, and the poll would be open until that hour for all time to come. It was wise to wait and see what decision was arrived at in respect to the Ballot Bill.

MR. HEALT

asked why the hon. Gentleman should be so nice? The Ballot Act Continuance Bill, to all appearances, was not likely to pass this Session. There was a very strong feeling with regard to the hours of polling, and he knew that in some boroughs the working men complained very greatly about the insufficient opportunity afforded them to vote. He thought the hon. Gentleman might very wisely consent to 4 o'clock being struck out and some later hour being inserted.

MR. BIGGAR

asked leave to withdraw his Amendment, in order to adopt the word "eight" instead of "six." If the Government thought it desirable that the hours of polling should be extended to 8 o'clock, they had now an opportunity of adopting that hour. If the point were raised on the Ballot Bill, a lengthy discussion would, no doubt, be carried on by the Conservative Members; but now the Government had the chance of extending the hours of polling without any opposition. They heard a great deal about the waste of time and about Obstruction; but he believed that more time was wasted by the want of judicious management on the part of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who had charge of Bills than by all the Obstruction that could possibly be carried on in the House. He begged leave to move that the word "four" be struck out and the word "eight" inserted. The Government would thus have an opportunity of voting for their own principle.

THE CHAIRMAN

If the Committee strike out the word "four," which is the word before the Committee, and if the Committee also refuse to insert the word "six," then the hon. Gentleman may move that the word "eight" be inserted.

MR. HEALY

said, he hoped that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hibbert) would not put his foot upon the suggestion, but that he would at least promise to give some consideration to the matter. He (Mr. Healy) did not think the Ballot Act Continuance Bill had the smallest chance of passing this year; but the hon. Gentleman had now, nevertheless, an excellent opportunity of enabling working men to vote.

MR. HIBBERT

said, he was quite willing to reconsider the subject; but what he really wanted to impress on the Committee was that it would be quite impossible to alter this Bill in order to extend the hours of polling from 4 to 8 o'clock. What should be done, if anything at all was done, would be to give power to the Town Council to make the alteration if thought desirable. It was well known that most Municipalities were not populous, and that there was no necessity to have polls open after 4 o'clock. There were, however, many other places where it would be a convenience to have polls open until 8 o'clock; under the Ballot Act Continuance Bill, the polls in those places could be kept open until that hour. He was not quite so hopeless about the Ballot Bill as the hon. Member (Mr. Healy); on the contrary, he believed it had every chance of becoming law this Session.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he would not put the Committee to the trouble of dividing; but would ask leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed, to.

Clauses 60 to 109, inclusive, agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Biggar).

Motion agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.