HC Deb 10 August 1882 vol 273 cc1470-6

(5.) £231,400, to complete the sum for the Science and Art Department.

MR. BUCHANAN

said, at the beginning of the Session he had called the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President on the Committee of the Council of Education to a Memorial signed by the Geological Society, and addressed, to the Science and Art Department, with reference to the Geological Survey of Great Britain. It appeared from the reply given that the Survey, so far as England was concerned, might be completed in two years and a-half from the beginning of last April, and that then it was intended to set apart a certain number of men now engaged upon the English Survey to complete the Survey of Scotland. Having regard to the rate of progress up to the present time, it was possible that in 1895 the Survey of Scotland might be completed; but it by no means followed that the public would then reap the benefit of the Survey, because they found that, although the Survey had now been going on in England for 20 years, and notwithstanding the fact that £4,000 a-year more was spent on that Survey than was spent in respect of the Scotch Survey, only 20 maps had been published in England, and in Scotland only two. So that, although the actual Survey might be completed in 1895, he feared it would be 10 years later before all the sheets were published. He regretted to find by the Estimate now before the Committee that, instead of there being a prospect of the work being accelerated, or even going on at the same rate as last year, there was a decrease of the staff engaged upon the active work of the Survey. No doubt there was one argument that might be used against increasing the active staff, and which was entitled to weight—namely, that work of this kind could not be turned over to men who were inexperienced; but, considering the importance of the work, he regarded it as extraordinary that there should be a decrease of the staff engaged on the Survey. He hoped the matter would be proceeded with vigorously, notwithstanding that the reduction of the staff seemed to indicate a further consumption of time for the completion of the Survey. He did not wish to express any dissatisfaction with the work done in connection with the Geological Survey in Scotland; but merely to remark that the Survey generally, which appeared to be going on very slowly, might, in his opinion, be very much accelerated by the exhibition of a little more generosity on the part of the Science and Art Department.

MR. MUNDELLA

said, the Department was doing everything in their power to facilitate the Geological Survey. But, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh had justly remarked, it was not desirable to place important work of this kind in inexperienced hands. It was the intention, as soon as the Survey now in progress in England was finished, to transfer the staff engaged therein to Scotland, so that the work there would from that time proceed much more rapidly.

MR. BUCHANAN

asked whether a successor had been appointed to the Director of the Scotch Survey?

MR. MUNDELLA

said, he thought no appointment had been made.

MR. DICK-PEDDIE

said, it appeared by the Estimate that there would only be four assistant geologists employed this year on the Scotch Survey, as against six employed in 1881–2.

MR. MUNDELLA

assured the hon. Member that there was no diminution of the staff. There had been changes from time to time; but the acting number was the same this year as it was last.

Vote agreed to.

(6.) £82,375, to complete the sum for the British Museum.

MR. SPENCER WALPOLE

said, the increased amount asked for this Institution was partly due to the increase in the salaries and wages at the British Museum, and still more so to the increase in the salaries, and the transfers of Collections which had taken place in connection with the Natural History Museum at South Kensington. Three out of the four Collections intended to be sent to South Kensington had already been transferred—namely, the Geological, Mineralogical, and Botanical. The fourth, or the Zoological Collection, had not yet been transferred, the preparation of cases for its reception requiring considerable care, pains, and labour. He believed, however, that the transfer would be undertaken at the commencement of next year. He had some years ago made a promise with regard to sending duplicate specimens to the various Institutions in the country; and he begged to assure the Committee that every pains had been taken to admit of that distribution taking place. But he might point out that great difficulty had been experienced in many cases in arriving at a conclusion as to what were and what were not duplicates. Some time had necessarily been consumed in considerations of that kind; but he was happy to inform the Committee that within the last two years nearly 20,000 duplicate specimens had been distributed amongst the various Museums of the Kingdom. The Accounts laid upon the Table of the House for the past year showed that a considerably greater interest was taken by the public in these Natural History Collections than before, and he felt confident that the arrangement with regard to them was the best that could be made. One strong proof of that interest on the part of the people was that the number of visitors had increased during the last five years from 563,000 to 764,000, while the number of visitors who attended for the purpose of study had increased from 709,000 to very nearly 1,000,000 for the same period.

MR. MAGNIAC

said, the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite was one of very great interest to those who had at heart the well-being of the Museums throughout the country. He hoped the distribution of specimens would be in future carried out to the fullest extent of the powers of the Trustees. They were aware that the powers of the Trustees were limited—that when an object was sent to the Museum the Trustees were obliged to keep it there, and that they had no power to move many specimens which would be most serviceable and proper in other museums, notwithstanding the fact that there were at the British Museum whole Collections of objects which would be much better placed elsewhere. He thought the time had arrived when the large Collection of Medals at the British Museum should be placed in a position where they could be better inspected. He thought that a great deal more than could be effected at the present time under the existing system was necessary to bring an appreciation of all these Collections home to the minds of the people which, after all, was the real object in view. He was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education make a firm stand at an earlier period of the evening against the creation of a new Museum in London.

Vote agreed, to.

(8.) £3,462 (including a Supplementary sum of £1,977), to complete the sum for the National Portrait Gallery.

MR. MAGNIAC

said, that this Collection of Portraits, which had grown in a most unprecedented and unforeseen manner, was an illustration of the disadvantage of having no controlling power for making such exhibitions available to the public. He thought there should be a Committee of Inquiry into the subject.

Vote agreed to.

(9.) £16,900 (including a Supplementary sum of £6,500), to complete the sum for Learned Societies and Scientific Investigation.

(10.) £6,631, to complete the sum for the London University.

(11.) £2,000, Aberystwith College, Wales.

(12.) £2,100, to complete the sum for the Deep Sea Exploring Expedition (Report).

SIR HENRY HOLLAND

asked whether the Financial Secretary to the Treasury could give the Committee any notion when the Report of the Expedition would be finished, and when an end would be put to the charge?

MR. COURTNEY

said, he was happy to be able to inform his hon. Friend that the Report of the Expedition was being proceeded with rapidly; but he could not say when it would be completed.

MR. MAGNIAC

believed it would be five years before the volumes on special subjects would be ready.

Vote agreed to.

(13.) £9,680, to complete the sum for the Transit of Venus.

(14.) £13,532, to complete the sum for Universities, &c. in Scotland.

(15.) £1,700, to complete the sum for the National Gallery, &c. Scotland.

MR. BUCHANAN

said, he was sorry at that hour of the morning to have to speak upon this Vote; but he would only occupy the attention of the Committee for a minute or two. He wished to make an observation with regard to the grant for the National Galleries of England and Scotland. He had already asked a Question with regard to the Scotch National Gallery, his opinion being that if extra payments were made they should be made to the three National Galleries equally. Why, he would ask, should Scotland be left out in the cold? An objection raised by the Secretary to the Treasury was that the authorities in Scotland had a right to accumulate a surplus from year to year. That was, no doubt, true, the grant to the National Gallery of Scotland being on a different footing to the grants to the other countries. There had been a composition since the Union. The Scotch National Gallery, having a right to any surplus which might be accumulated, had disposed of that surplus from time to time, and had built the Royal Institution with it. It was limited as to its disposal of the funds, for, according to the Act of 1847, the money had to be applied in manner specified in a Treasury Minute. Under the existing Treasury Minute, the Scotch National Gallery had no power to spend money in the purchase of pictures. He had no intention of saying anything about that; but he would say that while the English National Gallery received such a large grant, and while there was so much given for the English National Portrait Gallery, Scotland also ought to have a grant for the purchase of pictures. If time had allowed it, he should have moved to reduce the Irish or the English Vote; but the period was so late, and so many Scotch Members had gone to their own country, and he should get such little support if he made that Motion, that he would not adopt that course. However, he thought it was a scandal that such an enormous expenditure should take place upon the English National Gallery, and that nothing should be given to Scotland.

MR. COURTNEY

said, the National Gallery Trust in Scotland rested on a different foundation altogether from that of the English National Gallery. In England the Trustees only received an annual grant, which they could not accumulate, but had to return if they did not use it. In Scotland that was not the case; and they had, in fact, accumulated a great surplus.

MR. DICK-PEDDIE

said, he had intended to call attention to this matter; but in view of the work the House still had in hand he thought it would be better not to. But if the question was not raised now, perhaps no notice of it would be taken during the interval between this and the next Session. The grant was not a grant of public money to Scotland; but was really a payment to Scotland of her own money. The payment was made in accordance with an arrangement entered into at the time of the Union. While England received £2,300, Scotland received £2,100, and out of that had to support a School of Art, an Antiquarian Museum, and pay £960 to the Scotch Board of Fisheries, and only some £860 was left for the Arts, and that sum was swallowed up in maintaining the Gallery, so that not 1d. could be spent in the purchase of new works of Art.

MR. MAGNIAC

said, that the Scotch Members only had to put a reasonable grievance before the House to have it redressed. He was sure that hon. Gentlemen from the other side of the Border would experience no lack of support from hon. Members on that (the Ministerial) side of the House.

Vote agreed, to.

(16.) £380,461, to complete the sum for Public Education, Ireland.

MR. SEXTON

said, he wished to say a word or two in order to bring to the notice of the Government the fact that certain ladies imprisoned by the Government had been rather harshly treated by the Commissioners; and not only these ladies, but their relatives. He knew one case where a man was arrested on suspicion of having committed a political offence under the Coercion Act. He was a teacher, and his sister and brother were teaching with him. The Commissioners, in consequence of the imprisonment of this brother, deprived both these people of the promotion they had a right to expect. Now that the Coercion Act was about to expire, he would press the Government not to allow the position of these persons to be made worse by the fact of their having been imprisoned under that Act, and certainly not their relatives.

Vote agreed, to.

(17.) £1,098, to complete the sum for Teachers' Pension Office, Ireland.

(18.) £325, to complete the sum for the Endowed School Commissioners, Ireland.

(19.) £2,439 (including a Supplementary sum of £1,000), to complete the sum for the National Gallery of Ireland.

(20.) £10,178, to complete the sum for the Queen's Colleges, Ireland.

(21.) £1,200, to complete the sum for the Royal Irish Academy.