HC Deb 03 June 1881 vol 262 cc17-21
MR. TOTTENHAM

I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland a Question of which. I have given him private Notice—namely, Whether Lord Dunsandle's son, Mr. Daly, was fired at and wounded yesterday near his father's residence, at Loughrea, in Galway; whether this is not the third murder or attempt to murder within the last three weeks in the same locality attributable to the Land League—[Loud cries of "Oh!" and "Order!"]

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

I rise, Sir, to a point of Order. I wish to ask, whether it is not one of the Standing Rules of this House that no Question to a Minister shall contain an expression of opinion with regard to matters in dispute. The hon. Member, in attributing—as I would put it, mendaciously attributing—to the Land League the responsibilityof—[Loud cries of "Order!"]

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

I wish to ask you, Sir, whether the word "mendacious" is a word that can be properly applied by one Member of the House to another?

MR. SPEAKER

If the hon. Member, when he made use of the word "mendacious," applied it to a Member of the House, he is clearly out of Order, and I must ask him to withdraw this word.

THE O'DONOGHUE

I rise to ask you, Sir—[Loud cries of "Order" and "Withdraw!"]

MR. SPEAKER

I cannot allow any interposition.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

I will withdraw the word, Sir, and I will substitute for it "inaccurately." The hon. Member, in inaccurately attributing to the Land League the responsibility for out rages which the League has done its I best to repress—

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member has not addressed himself to the point I have raised, that, having applied the expression "mendacious" to a statement made by a Member of the House, he is called upon to withdraw it. [Cries of "He did!"]

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

I am afraid, Sir, my words did not reach your ears. I did withdraw the word "mendaciously," and substituted "inaccurately" for it. I wish to ask you, Sir, whether the hon. Member, in putting a Question to a Minister, is not violating a Standing Order of this House in attributing to the Land League organization responsibility for outrages which the League repudiates, and which is, at any rate, a matter for discussion; and, secondly, whether it is in Order for an hon. Member to attribute responsibility for outrage to an organization the control of which is in the hands of hon. Members belonging to this Assembly?

MR. SPEAKER

If the hon. Gentleman had placed on the Paper, in the ordinary way, the terms of the Question he proposed to submit to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I should have considered it my duty to strike out such an expression of opinion.

MR. O'KELLY

I want to know, Sir, whether there is any protection in this House for hon. Members on these Benches against any Gentleman making statements which are calumnious and lying? [Loud cries of "Order!" and "Name him!"]

MR. SPEAKER

I think, considering that I have called the attention of the hon. Member for Galway to the language which he has used, and which he has very properly withdrawn, I am bound, after the more violent expression made use of by the hon. Member for Roscommon, to Name Mr. O'Kelly.

MR. GLADSTONE

I rise, Sir, to move that Mr. O'Kelly be suspended from the service of the House during the remainder of this Sitting.

MR. HEALY

Does that include the Evening Sitting?

MR. GLADSTONE

Yes, Sir.

Motion made, and Question put, That Mr. O'Kelly be suspended from the service of the House during the remainder of this day's sitting."—(Mr. Gladstone.)

The House divided:—Ayes 188; Noes 14: Majority 174.—(Div. List, No. 227.)

MR. SPEAKER

then directed Mr. O'KELLY to withdraw, and he withdrew accordingly.

MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY

Mr. Speaker, if I am in Order, I beg leave to put to you a Question with regard to your recent ruling. Having a desire to obtain some clear understanding on the subject, I should like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether it is not the fact that a Predecessor of yours in that Chair ruled that Lord Palmerston was not out of Order in using the words "calumnious and mendacious statements," if these words were applied to the statements and not to the Member using them?

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member has asked me a Question as to a point of Order which is not now before the House. The House has suspended one of its Members during this day's Sitting for the use of the expression "lying."

MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY

A "calumnious and lying statement."

MR. GLADSTONE

If it is not an impertinence on my part, I may say that I think I recollect the incident to which the hon. Member refers, and the statement which he has just made is only very partially accurate. The objection was to the word "calumnious," and that word was not used by Lord Palmerston, but by another Member. The House and Lord Palmerston objected to it. The word "mendacious" did not come into the case at all.

MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY

There were two occasions on which the words were used. On the second occasion Lord Palmerston objected to them; but he had formerly used them himself, and reference was made to that former occasion as a precedent.

MR. SPEAKER

I must point out that this Question is altogether irrelevant. If the hon. Member desires to call attention to the matter, it is open to him to do so in the usual way.

MR. TOTTENHAM

In deference to what fell from you, Sir, I have altered the Question slightly to bring it within your ruling. It will now read as follows:—Whether Lord Dunsandle's son, Mr. Daly, was fired at and wounded at Loughrea yesterday; whether that is not the third murder, or attempt at murder, committed within the last three weeks in that locality; whether threatening posters, headed "More to be murdered," had been put up extensively in that district yesterday and "Wednesday; and I would also ask how long the Executive Government intend to permit the body called the Land League to carry on their operations?[Cries of "Order!"]

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

I rise to a point of Order. I wish to ask you, Sir, if the hon. Member is in Order in re-introducing into this question any expression of opinion which you have formally ruled to be out of Order; and whether, in so doing, the hon. Member is not disregarding the ruling of the Chair, and, therefore, subjecting himself to the penalty of being Named?

MR. SPEAKER

If the terms of the Question put by the hon. Member were precisely those which he read before, and which were objected to, I do think it would be an irregularity on the part of the hon. Member.

MR. TOTTENHAM

The terms are not the same, Sir. [Cries of "Name him!"]

MR. SPEAKER

If the words were not the same I have nothing more to say.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

Sir, the only information which I have is probably that which is in the possession of the hon. Member. I have seen a statement in one newspaper, and in another newspaper I have seen a second statement which says that the report is not confirmed. I believe it is true that one or more personal attacks have been made in the district referred to. As to the threatening posters, I saw to-day in one of the morning papers that they had been put up. The last part of the Question I must decline to answer.

MR. O'SHEA

I wish to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland whether Lord Dunsandle has got a son?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

The hon. Member can hardly expect me to answer that Question.