HC Deb 29 July 1881 vol 264 cc200-26

(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £17,619, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1882, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Charity Commission for England and Wales.

MR. BRYCE

said, that although the subject he desired to call the attention of the Committee to was one of very great importance, involving nothing less than the middle class education of the country, he hoped, considering the lateness of the hour and the necessity of making progress in Supply, to dispose of it very shortly. He did not propose to move the reduction of the Vote, particularly as he expected to obtain a satisfactory answer from the Government to the questions which he proposed to put. Nor did he propose to enter into any general question with regard to the policy of uniting the Charity and the Endowed Schools Commissions. He was quite aware that that policy had been questioned in many quarters, and that the Government had incurred great responsibility in changing the organization of the Endowed Schools Commission. A Commission to inquire into the working of the Endowed Schools Commission sat for some years from the year 1865, and presented Reports in 1866 and 1868. He had had the honour of being one of the Commissioners, and he was, therefore, able to explain what the result of the inquiry was. It went a long way towards showing that the education of what might be called the middle classes of the country—namely, that which was above the elementary education, but below that given in the higher class schools and Colleges, was eminently unsatisfactory. In many cases the endowments for educational purposes had been entirely neglected, and the education given was most defective. The consequence of the disclosures made by the Commission was the appointment of the Endowed Schools Commission in 1869. That Commission worked on until the year 1874, when there was a change of Ministry, and it was superseded in that year by the Commission which, at the present moment, continued to carry on the work. The Act of 1874, although it continued the Commission which was specially charged with the work of reorganizing the Endowed Schools, united the Commission with the Charity Commission, and placed it under the control of the Chief Commissioner of that Commission. Since then the work had been carried on under the auspices of the Charity Commission. Nearly 11 years had now elapsed since the Endowed Schools Act of 1869 began to take effect, and during that time the progress of the re-organization had been very much slower than was anticipated by those who framed the Act of 1869, or by those who made the alteration in the Act of 1874, under which the work was now carried on. It was expected in 1869 that the whole work of preparing new schemes would be completed in five or six years; but since 1869 the schemes which had been framed for the Endowed Schools of the country dealt with less than one-half of the total number of Endowed Schools. It was true that the value of the endowments was slightly in excess of one-half of the total amount; but the number of schools remaining to be dealt with was greater than the number which had been dealt with in the 11 years which had elapsed since 1869. Therefore, at the same rate of progress it was clear that 11 years more must elapse before the work of re-organizing the Endowed Schools could be completed, and before that time some of the schools which had already been dealt with by schemes would require to be dealt with afresh, so as to amend and remove defects that were not foreseen when the schemes were originally framed. It had become quite obvious that something more must be done to improve the secondary education of the country; and he thought he was entitled to ask the Vice President of the Council (Mr. Mundella) the causes which had made the progress in the work of re-organizing the Endowed Schools so exceedingly slow. The matter was one of the highest importance, because it could not be forgotten that the education of the country, as far as it did not depend on the small number of public schools which existed, mainly depended upon these Endowed Schools. It was they which should set the standard of education for the middle class schools of the country, which should give a better tone to the people, and in all respects act as models for the schools at which the children of the middle classes received their education. But that could not be done without introducing change into the generally obsolete regulations under which these schools were managed, or without the framing of such schemes as the Endowed Schools Commissioners has been directed to frame. He did not propose to enter into details upon the question as one of the educational policy of the country, or to inquire to what extent it was that the Endowed Schools were defective. It was well known that there were great deficiencies in the present working of the system; and he asked from his right hon. Friend the Vice President of the Council an explanation of the cause to which he attributed this slow progress and the measures he proposed to take in order to remedy this great evil. The Act under which the Endowed Schools Commission was now working would expire next year; and it would consequently be necessary, during next Session of Parliament, to bring in a measure which should renew the Commission, and endeavour, if possible, to set it going anew with greater locomotive power. The present time was, therefore, opportune for calling attention to the defects of the system which now existed, and for endeavouring to obtain some pledge from the Education Office that something would be done to remedy those defects, and bringing the whole matter before the country with the view of passing a satisfactory measure of reform during the ensuing Session. He would not anticipate what the Vice President of the Council would have to say to the position of the staff; but he would point out that one result of the policy adopted in 1874 had been to throw the Endowed Schools Commission into the hands, and place it under the control, of the Charity Commission. It was well known that the Endowed Schools Commission, between 1869 and 1874, went on faster than was conformable with the policy of the Party which came into power in 1874. It was the evident wish and desire of the Conservative Party to put a drag on the wheels of the Commission. The Commission at that time consisted of three able and eminently qualified men. At the head of it was the late Lord Lyttelton, of whom he spoke with the greatest respect as a Nobleman, thoroughly competent to deal with the work of educating the country, and who had greatly identified himself with it. The next Commissioner was Mr. Roby, who was also a man of great ability, and equally devoted to the cause of education; and the last was the Rev. Canon Robinson, who, fortunately, still continued on the Commission. In 1874 those three gentlemen were replaced by a new Commission, consisting of two only, one of whom was Canon Robinson, while the other had had no previous experience, who did the work as well as could be expected, but in whose hands the work of the Commission advanced much more slowly. This gentleman had since quitted office. He (Mr. Byrce) did not make any accusation against him; but he cited the substitution of this Commissioner for Lord Lyttelton and Mr. Roby as a reason why the work of the Commission must have gone on much less quickly and efficiently, and he cited it in the hope that some step would now be taken to remedy the mistake then made by adding to the number of Commissioners directly connected with the Endowed Schools. The amalgamation of the Endowed Schools Commission with the Charity Commission had the effect of making the question of the Endowed Schools one of secondary consideration. It was thought at the time that the Charity Commissioners would be able to devote some of the spare time and labour at their disposal to the work of the Endowed Schools Commission; but he believed he was right in saying that they had found it impossible to do so. The work of the Charity Commission itself was constantly accumulating. It was very important work, and it was becoming more important owing to the increase of the number of charitable foundations which were always growing; and, owing to that fact, the progress of the schemes under the Endowed Schools Act had been slower than might otherwise have been the case, because the schools, when re-organized, were constantly coming to the Charity Commission asking to have orders made, and the Charity Commission was occupied in meeting their needs. The consequence was that the three Charity Commissioners, who had done their work with a considerable amount of public spirit, found that they had no time to spare for the work of the Endowed Schools, and the Endowed Schools' work had been intrusted entirely to the two Endowed Schools Commissioners, who were far too few in number to grapple with the large mass of work they were required to perform. There was a further evil in the limited powers which the Endowed Schools Commission enjoyed. In place of inspecting the schools—he did not mean executing an individual inspection, because that could be properly done by Examiners—but he meant that where a scheme had been framed it might be found, after it had been at work for some years, that it was not working satisfactorily, either owing to some defect in the scheme itself, or some want of heartiness on the part of the trustees in carrying out the scheme—in place of exercising a supervising inspection over the schools, the Endowed Schools Commissioners found themselves unable to ascertain how the work was going on, and could make no provision for remedying the defects of any scheme unless they were prepared to go the length of drafting a new scheme. It was very desirable that powers should be given to them to send down the Assistant Commissioners, who were highly competent men, to examine into the working of the schools, for which schemes had already been framed, to report on that working, and that the Endowed Schools Commissioners should then be authorized to make such alterations in the existing schemes as they thought necessary without going through the long and complex process of framing an entirely new scheme. Further, there were many places which were entirely wanting in Endowed Schools. The most ancient towns in the country generally had endowed grammar school foundations; but there were a number of towns of enormous growth, and some of them even old towns, which were destitute of these schools, and very much wanted them, because it was found that private enter-prize did not come forward with suffi- cient promptitude to supply the wants which these endowments covered. They were, consequently, left to the mercy of private adventure schools; and he believed that every hon. Member who was acquainted with such schools would say that there were very few of them indeed which were fit to give a proper education to the children of the middle classes. The masters, as a rule, had neither the experience nor the skill which enabled them to do the work which might fairly be required from them. The remedy would seem to be to employ the Endowed Schools Commission to apply other charitable funds not heretofore devoted to education to educational purposes. An attempt was made to do that under the 30th section of the Endowed Schools Act of 1869. Under that section, the Endowed Schools Commission, in the case of various specified charitable foundations, were to apply the money which was being spent to charitable purposes in connection with education, provided they received an application for that purpose from the Governing Body of the charitable foundation. He need hardly say that it was only in comparatively few cases that the power was acted upon, because, as a rule, the trustees of these charitable foundations were very far from being enlightened men, and were not aware that, to a great extent, the purposes to which these charities were applied were really pernicious. Take the most obvious case of all—the case of dole gifts. An enormous sum of money was distributed annually all over the country in the shape of doles—tens of thousands a-year. Indeed, he should not be surprised to find that a sum amounting to £100,000 or £120,000 a-year was spent in doles—small gifts of bread, coals, clothes, blankets given away, often to people standing at the church door, and, generally speaking, given away by the trustees on their own unaided responsibility. No one who had studied the subject, and paid any attention to the condition of his fellow-townsmen, would fail to know that gifts of this kind were an unmixed evil. Personally, he did not know of one case out of 10 in which they did any good; and, in the great majority of cases, they did serious harm. But, unfortunately, the trustees of these funds were so much under the belief that they had no right to devote them to purposes other than those originally prescribed by the founder, that even in cases where they confessed that the charitable funds as now applied were doing harm, they could not be induced, in their corporate capacity, to make an application to the Endowed Schools Commission to devote the fund to educational purposes. The consequence was that the money, worse than if it remained absolutely idle, was positively doing harm. Many years, however, must elapse before public opinion would be sufficiently enlightened to induce the trustees to make an application to the Endowed Schools Commission, on their own motion. In that state of things, it would appear to be necessary to enlarge the powers of the Endowed Schools Commission, under Section 30 of the Act of 1869, and give them the initiative in the matter. Power should be given to them, where they were satisfied, on competent evidence, that a charitable foundation of this kind was doing mischief, to apply it to educational purposes. He was far from saying that this power should be given without control. He was fully aware that a good deal of jealousy was felt in the country as to the action of the Charity Commissioners. He had heard it constantly said that this was a proposal to hand over the charities of the country to two or three gentlemen sitting in Whitehall; but he believed that two or three gentlemen sitting in Whitehall were much more likely to do good with them than the large number of irresponsible trustees who existed throughout the country, and who had never considered the matter from the large point of view of those who had gained their experience through the working of the Charity Commission. The state of feeling was undoubtedly such that it would become necessary, in the event of handing over extended powers to a Board in London, to surround their action with numerous safeguards. Nobody would contend that the power given to the Charity Commission or the Endowed Schools Commission should be an absolute power, and it must be accompanied with a power of reference or appeal in the event of discontent being excited. Moreover, it might be generally felt that it would not be proper to take funds which were originally given to the poor and apply them entirely for the benefit of the middle class. In a case where an endowment originally given to the poor was applied to the purposes of secondary education, it would be proper to require that a number of free places—places accessible to the poor—equivalent to the advantages taken, should be reserved. The ultimate advantage would be that while they gave benefit to the poor they would also give benefit to the town generally, by establishing a higher class education than private adventure schools were now able to give. The last point he wished to mention had reference to the education of girls. The Endowed Schools Act of 1869 directed the Endowed Schools Commission to make provision for extending the education of girls. The Commissioners in their Reports stated that they had been able to do much less than they expected, and much less than the House expected, when this power was originally given. The cases in which they had been able to establish girls' schools had been comparatively few; and of the total amount of money applied to educational purposes that applied to the education of girls as compared with boys had been a lamentably small percentage. It was hardly necessary to point out to the Committee that the education of girls was rendering, in reality, quite as great a service to the community as the education of boys. When they taught those who were to become their next generation of mothers, they were doing the best thing they could for the education of the coming generation itself. It was, he thought, very much to be regretted that a far more adequate provision had not been made for the education of girls. He believed that the Commission had been met in some cases by a little opposition in the efforts they had been desirous of using in this direction; and, therefore, he thought there should be a stronger direction from Parliament than any that had hitherto been given for making proper and adequate provision for the education of girls. Those were the evils of which he complained, and which he hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council would, next Session, see occasion to remedy. He had already pointed out what appeared to be the chief remedies required—namely, the strengthening of the staff of the Commission, the enlargement of their powers, the propriety of giving them the initiative in cases where it was desirable to apply charitable endowments to educational purposes, and a more specific direction on the subject of the education of girls. Before sitting down he wished to ask the Committee to consider seriously the great importance of the question, and to express in some way their feeling that next year it ought to be dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council in a bold and sweeping measure. Instead of keeping on the Commission for a few years longer, dealing with the Endowed Schools in a manner which could only be temporary, it was desirable that it should be rendered permanent and strength given to it. It must not be forgotten that great educational institutions like Dulwich College and Christ's Hospital were still asking for new schemes, although many years had not elapsed since the schemes upon which they were at present worked were framed. They were two magnificent institutions, with ample revenues, and yet they could not be properly worked, because the Commissioners had not had time to deal with them. In that state of facts, considering the great importance of the Educational Question, and how dependent it was upon the action of the Endowed Schools, considering that England was far behind every other civilized nation in Europe in regard to intermediate and secondary education, considering that some reform, although far from adequate, had been introduced into our system of University education, it was not right that the Endowed Schools should be left longer untouched; and it was not too much to say that the question was one of the most important that could engage the attention of Parliament and of the Government.

MR. MUNDELLA

At this late hour of the night, and considering also the late period of the Session and the necessity of making progress with Supply, I will not detain the Committee long in answer to the able and interesting speech of my hon. Friend. I have no fault to find with the statement he has made. I am sorry to say that I agree with its general accuracy. There is, no doubt, a general feeling of anxiety and dissatisfaction at the slow progress made with regard to Endowed Schools in England. But I do not think it is necessary to lay any blame at the door of the Commis- sioners for this. The real fault rests with the Act of 1874. I think that the passing of that Act was a great misfortune for the education of this country. It had the effect of reducing the number of Commissioners devoted to the work of the Endowed Schools from three to two; it merged the two Commissions—the Charity Commission and the Endowed Schools Commission, into one; and it made it necessary that every scheme should be considered at a meeting of the Board when the Chief Commissioner was present. The result was, that you increased the difficulty of dealing with the question, and you practically brought down the work to the narrowest possible limits. Now, the work of the Charity Commission itself is a very largely increasing work. For the last 20 years it has been going on augmenting at a rate that makes it quite sufficient for the Commission to deal with without undertaking the work of the Endowed Schools in addition. The two previous Chief Charity Commissioners—Mr. Peter Erle and Sir James Hill—found the work more than they could well get through; and I understand that it was the anxiety displayed by Sir James Hill to accomplish, with one Commissioner, the work of two, that aided very materially in bringing about his death. He found the labour was far more than he ought to undertake. To show the increased nature of the work of the Charity Commission, perhaps the Committee will allow me to point out that in 1861, 207 orders were made by the Commissioners. In 1862 the number had increased to 280, and it has been going on augmenting ever since until last year, 1880, it reached 444 schemes. That represents the charitable work alone; but let me point out what the amount of stock transferred has been. It began with £6,360 in 1854, and it now amounts to £11,443,000, of which £1,500,000 has been invested, so that, in round numbers, a sum of £10,000,000 has been transferred. Every transfer has to be brought before the Board, and, of course, a large amount of additional work is necessarily devolved upon them. The Commissioners themselves, in their last Report, speak of the increase of the work. My hon. Friend has urged the importance of strengthening the staff of the Commission; and we have pointed out in our 24th Report the amount of labour which the effective regulation of the public interest in the Parochial Charities of the City of London would require. My hon. Friend himself brought in a Bill this Session which most Members will regret he was unable to pass dealing with the Parochial Charities of London. If it had passed, it would have done much to increase the work of the Charity Commission. The result of placing on the Commission the double work of the Charity Commission and the Endowed Schools Commission has really been to block the progress of the two Commissions, and to hinder effective dealing both with the Charity Commission work and the work of the Endowed Schools Commission. I will point out to the Committee how the Endowed Schools Commission stands now. Since the year 1869, the amount regulated by new schemes in a period of now nearly 12 years has been £294,000 per annum, and there remains still to be dealt with of educational schemes more than £340,000 per annum, in addition to a number of other endowments which are only partly educational. It is, therefore, not unreasonable to say that it will take a quarter of a century, at the present rate of progress, to deal with the educational endowments of England alone. In the present state of middle class education, I would ask the Committee if that is at all a satisfactory state of things? As my hon. Friend has stated, we were told in 1869 that in the course of six or seven years we should have dealt with the whole of the educational endowments of the country. We have now reached the year 1881; and at the rate of progress we are now making it is still contemplated that it will take a quarter of a century before the work is completed. The matter is too serious to be passed over lightly, and some effectual means must be devised for dealing with it. I believe it is the fact that many of the schemes already passed now urgently stand in need of revision; and, owing to the want of inspection and examination, many have not been put in operation. Indeed, there seems to be no sort of control over those which the Commission have passed. The Commissioners ask, in their last Report, that there should be examination and inspection; and I must say that the way in which that Report was denounced in "another place" was most extraordinary. It was one of the most astonishing things I ever heard of in the course of my life. All that was asked for was what was reasonable to carry into full effect the schemes framed by the Commission; and it was one of the most extraordinary statements ever made that the Commissioners desired to constitute themselves into a roving Commission, in order to deal with all the charities all over the country. All the Commissioners asked in their Report was that they should have the means of examining the working of the schemes after they have framed them, in order to see whether they are put fairly into operation. They further proposed that they should have power to inspect the schools once in three years, in order to see that they were doing their work satisfactorily. Every hon. Member will recognize how important the inspection of the schools is as an educational matter. I think that there should be a periodical Report as to the working of the schools, showing what their condition is, and how they compare with one another. I know myself of various schools in regard to which schemes have been framed by the Commission; but, because there has been no inspection and no examination within the last 10 or 11 years, some of these schemes, which started very well, and began to do noble work, are now falling into disuse and decay. All I can say now is that the whole question must be dealt with in the coming year. The only desire of Her Majesty's Government is to promote the true interests of the education of the country. We only desire that what is given through the means of these charitable endowments shall be useful to the poor as well as advantageous to the children of the middle classes. I trust that during the Recess, seeing that we are bound to consider the subject, and that the Commission must be renewed, or a new Commission appointed in the coming year—I trust that we shall be able to devise some measure that will, while consulting the interests of the schools themselves, afford adequate means for their examination, and utilize the vast endowments of the country in the promotion of the higher education of the people, and in opening up the means of education to poor and clever children.

MR. W. H. JAMES

said, he heartily and cordially agreed in much that had fallen from his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Bryce); but, at the same time, he regarded with some reluctance the proposal to give larger powers to the present Charity Commission. The statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council as to the intention of the Government to deal with the question next Session was entirely satisfactory; but he was anxious to point out to the right hon. Gentleman the desirability, when the subject was taken up by the Government next year, of not going too far in the direction of centralization. They must all remember the vigilance of the opposition that was brought to bear on the Endowed Schools Commission which was dispossessed in 1874; and, at the same time, it must be borne in mind that in a great number of these local questions there were a great many local prejudices to consult which required a certain amount of local knowledge, and with respect to which a board in London would find itself incompetent to deal. He wished to point out to his right hon. Friend that when the Government took up the question, they ought, as far as possible, to give to the local authorities in various parts of the country powers analogous, or to some extent analogous, in dealing with Charities and Endowed Schools, to those possessed at the present time by the Charity Commission. By that means, he thought they would be able to get rid of a great deal of the local prejudice and intense local irritation which reduced to a wreck the great measure passed in 1869. If the hour of the night had not been so advanced he would have wished to say a few words from his own personal knowledge in regard to the great Endowed Institution in London, in respect of which he was a Governor—Christ's Hospital. But at that late hour he would not interfere with the course of Public Business further than to say, without desiring in the least to impute motives to the Governors of Christ's Hospital, that nothing could be more unsatisfactory than its present condition in regard to the relations between the Governing Body and the Charity Commission. He hoped his right hon. Friend would bear these remarks in mind when he came to deal with the question next year.

MR. DONALDSON-HUDSON

said, he rose for the purpose of thanking the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council for the promise he had held out to the House and the country that some system of inspection would be carried out in future in regard to the middle class schools. Having been Chairman of the Governing Body of a small Endowed School in the country, he could bear his testimony to the fact that one of the greatest difficulties the Governors had to contend with was the difficulty of getting their schools properly examined and inspected from time to time. One of the schools with which he was connected, although it had only a small income, educated 100 children. There was another point that was also of importance, and that was the selection of teachers. He and his colleagues, as Governors of an Endowed School, had not had the assistance of the Education Department in the training, selection, and nomination of teachers. They were very much at the mercy of any persons who proposed to go to them for the somewhat low fees they were able to pay. He therefore hoped, through the operation of some measure for the registration of teachers, or in some other way, it might be practicable to provide means for affording the Governors who had the management of these schools an opportunity of knowing where to apply to for thoroughly competent teachers. As far as his own experience went, these were the two great difficulties in the management of Endowed Schools—namely, the selection of teachers and the securing of an efficient inspection.

MR. BRYCE

said, that after the satisfactory statement of his right hon. Friend the Vice President of the Council, he would only venture to express a hope that the right hon. Gentleman would not only bring in a satisfactory measure next year for dealing with the Endowed Schools Commission, but that he would also be able to deal with the Charitable Trusts Bill.

MR. J. G. TALBOT

thought that one or two inaccurate statements had been made on the other side of the House. The hon. Gentleman who introduced the subject (Mr. Bryce) made a very able speech, to which he had listened with great interest; but the hon. Member did not seem to recollect the whole history of this important transaction. The hon. Gentleman spoke of the slow progress which had undoubtedly been made, and which he (Mr. Talbot) would be one of the last to deny. He was very sorry that the progress had not been greater; but he thought it ought not to be forgotten that the slow progress did not entirely date from the year 1874. The first legislation upon the subject took place in 1869, and it was then expected that the work would be completed in four or five years. But, notwithstanding all the energy of the gentlemen who constituted the Endowed Schools Commission—of whose energy, ability, and integrity there could be no doubt—when the year 1874 arrived the work had not been half done. Indeed, it was not much more than one-quarter done. Therefore, while not wishing to extenuate the slow progress which had been made altogether, he did not think it was fair to put the whole of the blame upon the progress which had been made since 1874.

MR. BRYCE

said, he had no intention of imputing blame to the present Board for their action in the matter. All he wished to say was, that the progress had been even slower since 1874 than it had been before.

MR. J. G. TALBOT

said, the explanation of the hon. Member set the matter right; but without such explanation anyone hearing his speech, or the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, would have fallen into the error of supposing that the Commission, which had been in charge of the Endowed Schools since 1874, were solely to blame for the slow progress which had been made. He now wished to ask the attention of the Committee to a point raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to imply that when the Conservative Government came into Office in 1874 they had a desire to retard the work of the Commission. Now, he did not know what the motives of the Conservative Government might have been when they entered upon Office; but he did not believe that anybody wished to retard the progress of the work of the Commission. All he knew was, that some Members of the House wished to put that progress on a slightly different basis in regard to control. That might have been wise or it might not; but the desire was not alone confined to the Conservative side of the House. It was a point that gave rise to serious deliberation. The late Government wished that the progress of the Commission should be greater, but without undue friction with the prejudices—or call them what they liked—of the persons who had charge of institutions. He did not see the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant in his place; but he was Chairman of the Committee which sat in 1869 upon the subject, and he would agree that this was one of the points the Committee wore most anxious to consider. He (Mr. J. G. Talbot) did not think it would have a brightening effect upon the country generally if it was now to be understood that on reconsidering the question of the Endowed Schools Commission they were going to re-open the difficult question of non-educational endowments. It was, no doubt, true, as the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council said, that many of these charities had been greatly abused, and that the system of doles had been, on the whole, unwisely administered. But, on the other hand, he thought it would be a very startling thing if it were to go forth from that Committee—and he had risen to enter his humble protest against the acceptance of the suggestion—that there was any intention of diverting the funds which had been designedly left for the benefit of the poorest classes of the community to objects that were, after all, for the education of the middle classes only. It might be wise to do something in that direction; but the proposition of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets was simply this—that the Charity Commission, or the Endowed Schools Commission, whichever body was to act in future, should have the power of initiating, in regard to these doles, whether the managers of them wished to deprive them of their present character or not, a scheme which should have the effect of making them educational endowments. By that means, funds which had been left for the benefit of the very humblest portion of the community, although it might be in a mistaken and misguided manner, would be taken away from those it was intended to benefit, and applied to the education of the middle classes. That, he thought, would be a very dangerous course to take, to say the least of it. There was only one more remark he would venture to make on the matter, and it was this—the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council spoke of the question as one which, must engage the attention of Parliament next Session. It was obvious that as the Act must expire next year something must be done in that direction; and, that being so, he would earnestly press on the Government that it would be unwise to make an alteration in this important question, either by constituting a new Commission, or arming the existing Commission with increased powers, without full and deliberate consideration. The constitution of the original Commission was made the subject of a careful inquiry by a Committee of that House; and it would be wise, if it was intended materially to alter the conditions under which the Commission was to work, to institute a fresh inquiry next year, cither by moans of a Royal Commission or of a Committee of that House. With regard to the question of amalgamation, it was said that harm had been done by uniting the Endowed Schools Commission with the Charity Commission. It might have been so; and the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council had given them some important statistics as to the increased work which had fallen upon the Commission. That was a matter which probably ought to be determined before they renewed the connection between the charitable work and the educational work; but it was only fair to the late Conservative Government to say that, although they were often charged with extravagance and lavish expenditure, this was an attempt to amalgamate two Commissions, and if it had not proved successful, at any rate it was an attempt in the direction of economy. Personally, he should certainly not stand there as an obstructive of any well-considered change; but he hoped it would not go forth to the country without challenge that any fundamental alteration should be made without due and careful consideration.

MR. THOROLD ROGERS

wished to say a word in answer to the remarks which had fallen from the hon. Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. J. G. Talbot). As far as he knew, there had never been a case in which any charitable endowment had been deviated in the direction of education without coupling the educational scheme with machinery which enabled boys to rise from the national schools to the gram- mar schools. He knew of one case, in Bristol, in which the change took precisely that form, and the endowment was made the means of promoting boys from the national schools into the Bristol Grammar School. The same sort of thing had happened in the City of Oxford. Some doles had been left for purposes that were entirely obsolete, and they were taken away and given to the grammar school; but provision was made by means of which boys from the lowest stratum of society in Oxford were enabled to enter the grammar school. As a matter of fact, every hon. Member knew that all the Endowed Schools of the country had been originally intended for the poor.

MR. BRYCE

said, the hon. Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. J. G. Talbot) had fallen into an error. He (Mr. Bryce) had not intended to imply that any of the funds now given to the poor should be taken away from them and given to the middle class. To the best of his belief he had stated distinctly that, in taking the initiative, the Commission should be restricted by ample safeguards, and that equivalent advantages should be secured to the poor.

MR. FINIGAN

asked whether anything had been done since last year with regard to Jackson's Trust Fund?

MR. MUNDELLA

said, he was unable to answer the question of the hon. Member at the moment; but if he would make an application inquiries should be made.

Question put, and agreed to.

(2.) £13,798, to complete the sum for the Civil Service Commission.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

inquired as to the amount of fees paid by candidates at the Army examinations?

MR. W. H. JAMES

said, that nothing could be more unsatisfactory, or even scandalous, than the present system of conducting military examinations. He believed that on the last occasion of the examination in connection with the Woolwich Military Academy there was in the morning a concert and in the evening a recital in the Hall where the examinations were conducted, which could not but interfere very much with the proceedings. He had always been in favour of the system of competitive examination; but it seemed to him very difficult to attain to a proper standard in the examinations if such a state of things were allowed to continue.

MR. CHILDERS

said, he had strongly pressed upon the authorities that they should take steps for obtaining better accommodation for the purpose of these examinations; and he trusted that his representations would this year lead to a more satisfactory arrangement. The Commissioners of Works had sought for a room more adapted for the examinations; but, up to the present, unfortunately, they had not been able to meet with one in which a sufficiently large number of persons could be provided for. The Government were, however, fully alive to the position of affairs.

MR. THOROLD ROGERS

asked why the fees for the Civil Service of India examinations were paid into the India Exchequer?

MR. CHILDERS

said, that the question was about to be taken up by the Government.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, he would make inquiries, before the Vote was reported, on the question of the amount of fees payable by candidates at the Army examinations.

Vote agreed to.

(3.) £9,466, to complete the sum for the Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission.

(4) £4,425, to complete the sum for the Inclosure and Drainage Acts, Imprest Expenses.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

said, that this Vote was one of several instances of the public money being advanced and not repaid. There was a note relating to this charge which said that the whole of this Vote was a temporary advance, which was to be repaid to the Exchequer when the works of inclosure and drainage were completed. But the fact with regard to this Vote was that, although a considerable sum was annually repaid, it did not amount to the whole sum advanced; and, therefore, the amount of the arrears increased rapidly. The matter had already been before the Public Accounts Committee, who had urged a reduction of the arrears, but, up to the present time, without success. In the year 1878 the noble Lord the Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Frede- rick Cavendish), and in 1880 the hon. Baronet the Member for Midhurst (Sir Henry Holland), as Chairmen of the Public Accounts Committee, had both inquired into the subject; and in reply to the inquiry as to whether any arrangement had been made for providing the Comptroller and Auditor General with particulars to enable him to report to Parliament the progress made with regard to these loans, an answer was sent by an official to the effect that he regretted to say that he could not report that any arrangement had been made. The Committee would be aware that the Comptroller and Auditor General was an officer specially appointed by the House to investigate questions of this nature; and yet it was found that the very materials necessary for his investigations were withheld from him. As he had pointed out, the Public Accounts Committee had expressed regret at the delay that had taken place, and pointed out that the question was one which ought to be settled as soon as possible. The subject had been before the Committee again in the present year, and it was stated at last that the Commissioners had furnished some accounts of a fragmentary character, and that a satisfactory examination of accounts was hoped for in the future. He regarded this as scarcely a satisfactory state of affairs. As a matter of fact, this Vote was not merely a temporary advance, because it was perfectly certain that a great deal of the money could not and would not be recovered. Although it was certain that there would be a loss, it was uncertain what the amount of loss would be; and he questioned whether the noble Lord, on the part of the Government, could tell the Committee the amount of money which had been advanced, the amount which had been repaid, the amount which was still outstanding, or the amount which would have to be wiped off as an irrecoverable arrear, and charged against the country. He regarded this case as a fair illustration of the statement that the system of advancing money to be recovered, if possible, from parties who were not in a position to repay it was an unsound one."

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

pointed out that more than £8,000 had teen repaid last year, and that the net loss was about £800.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) £27,233, to complete the sum for the Exchequer and Audit Department.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

said, that, notwithstanding the importance of the duties of the Comptroller and Auditor General, that officer, unfortunately, did not receive from the Public Departments, whose Accounts he had to examine, that assistance which it was desirable he should have. There was probably no Department of the Public Service whose Accounts would be more improved by a careful overhauling than the War Office; and yet the audit which the Comptroller and Auditor General was able to give of the Accounts of that Department was little more than an appropriation audit. Even the first Army Vote had never yet been examined in detail, but only partially, by the Comptroller and Auditor General; but the Committee would see the immense advantage of having a careful and detailed examination of that expenditure by an independent body. He would merely point to one item, the Stock Purse Fund of the Guards. For 25 years that House had voted something like £6,000 annually for the Hospital and Recruiting Service of the Brigade of Guards in perfect ignorance that the money was not used for the purposes for which it was intended, but that it found its way into the pockets of the officers of the Brigade, and that the hospital and recruiting expenses were paid for out of other moneys. Under that system the officers of the Guards had divided amongst themselves since the Crimean War a sum of money which, in the aggregate, amounted to £150,000. But directly the Comptroller and Auditor General got a hold upon the Army Votes that system had entirely disappeared, the War Office authorities having found it necessary to admit that the money had not altogether been applied to the purposes for which it was voted. There were, it appeared, certain allowances to the officers carefully veiled in the Returns furnished, and which were for a long time kept from the knowledge of the public, but which appeared in the Army Estimates as now drawn up. He mentioned this case as an illustration of the immense advantage in the way of preventing jobbery which resulted from an independent investigation by such an officer as the Comptroller and Auditor General. But, apart from that, there was a system of audit in the War Office which had this great weakness about it, that every Departmental Auditor was obliged to pass charges which he himself might know to be wrong—that was to say, where the money, as in the case he had referred to, did not go for the purpose intended. The charge was covered by the authority of the Secretary of State, and he was a subordinate of the Secretary of State. The audit of the War Office was a perfect farce, there being no independent audit at all; and those who knew the details of the Service knew that the Audit Department should be handed over in its entirety to the Comptroller and Auditor General, and placed in a position of independence so far as the War Office was concerned. He would not go into other matters in regard to the work of the Comptroller and Auditor General; but it struck him (Mr. A. O'Connor) that there were a great many accounts which it would be well to have audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. He did not know whether the Metropolitan Police Accounts could properly be submitted to him for the purpose. He did not think they were audited by that official; but, at any rate, there were a good many accounts that escaped him which ought not to do so. There was an item on the Paper which struck him as being very singular—namely, £25 for the purveyor of luncheons. He could not, for the life of him, imagine why a man who entered into a contract to supply refreshments should be allowed a money grant, seeing that he made fair charges, had gas and coals for nothing, and lived rent free. He (Mr. A. O'Connor) thought it would be a very reasonable thing to reduce the Vote by £25.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, he would not follow the hon. Member into many of his statements concerning the audits, as this was not a favourable opportunity for the discussion. He was glad to be able to say that the best audit was now being applied to the Department mentioned. As to the sum of £25, an injustice would be done if it were not granted.

Vote agreed to.

(6.) £3,086, to complete the sum for Friendly Societies Registry.

Resolutions to be reported.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £330,173, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1882, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board, including various Grants in Aid of Local Taxation.

MR. R. N. FOWLER

said, this was a grant in aid of local taxation; and as there were several Amendments and a great deal of discussion would take place, and as it was already a quarter to 1, he would move to report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. R. N. Fowler.)

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, that, under ordinary circumstances, it would be advisable to report Progress at that time of the night; but they had now arrived at the end of July and the beginning of August, and had only passed a few Votes in Supply. He thought, therefore, they should go on a little longer.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, an hon. Member opposite had an important Scotch question to raise on that Vote—a question in which the people of Scotland took great interest. It was undesirable that it should be debated at that time of night; therefore, he trusted the Government would agree to the Motion.

MR. R. N. FOWLER

said, he presumed they would have all Monday night for the Estimates, and the noble Lord would then be able to get a good deal of money. Under those circumstances, and seeing, as had just been stated, that an important question was to be raised on the Vote, it was not unreasonable to ask that Progress should be reported. There were 17 Orders of the Day; and, as one or two of them involved important questions, the House should be allowed some little time to go through them.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, that nearly all the Orders of the Day were blocked. He would not propose to take the Vote upon which, as it was said, an important question was to be raised; but he would appeal to his hon. Friend to allow them to take what Votes were not opposed.

MR. J. G. TALBOT

said, that, looking at the period of the Session, it was not unreasonable on the part of the Government to ask the Committee to go on a little later.

MR. RYLANDS

said, that, having regard to the fact that they had now nearly reached the period at which it was usual to end the Session, and at which shooting commenced, hon. Members ought to assist the Government to make progress with Supply, even at some personal sacrifice. He would, therefore, ask the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. R. N. Fowler) to withdraw his Motion. It would be possible to dispose, at any rate, of a few Votes to-night.

MR. O'DONNELL

would undertake to say that that was the first time in his Parliamentary career that the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) had suggested that they should hurry over their Business in order that they might go to shoot. He (Mr. O'Donnell) was at a loss to suppose what had produced so marked a change in the hon. Member. There had been references made to the lateness of the hour at which the important question with which that discussion commenced—namely, that on the Endowed Schools system—was taken, and on that point he could say that a great many Members who had observations to make had refrained from making them because it was too late. They were now asked, at a still later hour, to go on with the discussion of the Estimates and vote public money. He did not think, from the hour and the time they had been sitting, that the Committee were in a position to discriminate between the Business which was so unimportant that it might be safely hurried over and the Business that was so important to deserve attention and full discussion. The real Business was the voting of Supply; and unless hon. Members had a fair opportunity of scrutinizing the channels into which the money was to go, even by the present most virtuous of Ministries there might be reckless and ill-considered expenditure.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

YOU, Mr. Playfair, have put this Vote from the Chair, and I wish to ask you whether it is possible to withdraw it in order to take unopposed Votes? I would remind you, Sir, that on a previous occasion you ruled that a Vote, having been put, could not be withdrawn.

THE CHAIRMAN

A Vote cannot be postponed by a Motion; but if the Government desire to withdraw a Vote they can do so.

MR. LABOUCHERE

said, that some hon. Members seemed to think that there were only two things to be done at this period of the year—either to sit here, or shoot partridges. So far as he was concerned, he should shoot nothing; but he did not want to sit in the House of Commons beyond the month of August. If they did not take Supply up to a later hour than this they would assuredly have to sit into September. The next Vote was for the Lunacy Commission of England, and he did not suppose that any hon. Member from Ireland or anywhere else intended seriously to oppose that Vote being granted; therefore, he would ask the hon. Member to withdraw his Motion, and allow the Business to be proceeded with.

MR. O'DONNELL

Does the hon. Member for Northampton suggest a certain connection between the Vote he speaks of and the hon. Members who desire to carry on Business beyond a certain hour?

MR. LABOUCHERE

Yes.

MR. A. MOORE

said, that if Progress were now reported they would get through a large number of Votes on Monday, as there would be no delay, such as there was now, over the unopposed Votes.

MR. RAMSAY

appealed to the Committee to allow unopposed Business to be taken for a short time.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

said, it appeared to him that hon. Members opposite who were interested in Votes not yet reached were exceedingly anxious that they should get over these intermediate Votes as soon as possible, and then report Progress, so that, at the next Sitting, the proposals they wished to discuss should come on without delay, and they should have an opportunity of making their elaborately prepared speeches at a time at which they would be reported. These hon. Members had regard only to their own personal convenience. The Committee, however, were concerned in the administration of the public funds. There was no Vote here that was not a contentious Vote. Hon. Members seemed to think that the English Lunacy Vote was not one in which Irish Members could take any interest; but to show them that this was not the fact, he had here four pages of notes from the Reports of the Lunacy Commissioners, and four columns of notes from various reports from the medical authorities concerning the treatment of lunatics in this country out from The Lancet. He thought it was not at all difficult to show that, in many respects, the Lunacy Commissioners of England had not done all that they might have done in their office. He, therefore, objected entirely to the statement that the Lunacy Vote for England was a non-contentious Vote. He would defy any hon. Member to mention a single Vote in Class II. which was a non-contentious Vote.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he had had considerable experience of similar wrangles as to reporting Progress, and he had noticed this—that the Government were always in the wrong, and only wasted a good deal of time and expended a good deal of heat unnecessarily, and without doing good to anyone. It was looked on as an established rule that no public money should be voted after half-past 12 o'clock at night, and he did not see why that rule should be set aside now. It would be a saving of time for the Government to give way, for the unopposed Votes would be got through as rapidly as possible on Monday, whereas now they would lead to continued wrangling. They had already wasted more time than it would take on Monday to go through them. The Government would have in the end to give way. They seemed to think that time was valuable at 1 o'clock in the morning; but they evidently did not attach much value to the early part of the day, otherwise they would not, at 4 o'clock, come down and read long speeches in reply to questions. He would not name any individual Minister; but they all knew that this sort of thing was done. And now, when hon. Members wanted to go to bed, the Government made a great point about getting rid of non-contentious Votes. Her Majesty's Ministers evidently wanted to get Business disposed of and Bills passed at an hour when they could not be carefully examined into or fully criticized, and when hon. Member's speeches could not be reported in the papers. This sort of thing might be very pleasantly carried on, no doubt, if there was no opposition in the House.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 16; Noes 73: Majority 57.—(Div. List, No. 344.)

Original Question again proposed.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £8,195, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1882, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners in Lunacy in England.

COLONEL ALEXANDER

said, he and several other Members had been sitting on a Committee from 12 o'clock to 4, and almost incessantly since then they had been in the House. They wanted now to go to bed, and he thought it perfectly absurd that a Vote of public money should be taken at 1 o'clock in the morning. He should take every opportunity of protesting against the practice. The Government would have plenty of time for these Votes during the whole of next week. They had no Bills to pass, or if they had they ought not to have any; and not a single Bill ought to be read a second time after the 1st of August. He begged to move that the Chairman leave the Chair.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Colonel Alexander.)

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, that as the minority of the Committee had not shown the feeling displayed by the majority he would not oppose the Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next.

Committee also report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.