HC Deb 28 July 1881 vol 264 cc32-4
SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether it is in the power of the Government, without the sanction of Parliament, to enter into Treaty engagements with a Foreign State binding this Country for a certain term of years not to increase the duties on goods imported from such State into the United Kingdom; and, inasmuch as the engagements taken by this Country towards France in 1860 were sanctioned by Parliament in consideration of the Treaty engagements contracted by France towards this Country, and as the Treaty has been denounced by France, whether Her Majesty's Government will undertake not to enter into a renewal of our engagements towards France, or to accept any variation of the engagements of France towards this Country, without the sanction of Parliament?

MR. GLADSTONE

Sir, I do not believe, with regard to the first portion of the Question, that there are any absolute limits to the power of the Crown to bind the country; but, practically, it is the well-understood usage—and no Government, I apprehend, would depart from it—that where a question of our own fiscal arrangements, or a question of money is involved, invariably the jurisdiction of Parliament is reserved, and covenants of the Treaties are made conditional. That was the case in regard to the Treaty of 1860. Very important changes on our part in the Customs and Excise duties of the country were part of the stipulations of that Treaty, and, therefore, as a matter of course, it came before Parliament. The case is now different. It is quite evident that, under the present negotiations, if they should land us in a Treaty, as I hope may be the case, provided the terms are satisfactory, at the very least, the principal matter would really be the duties to be levied in France; and it is very doubtful whether any question relating to duties in this country would be involved. If it were to be so, the matter would, of course, have to be laid before Parliament. If it were not so, I am not sure that we could undertake in the terms here specified— Not to enter into a renewal of our engagements towards France, or to accept any variation of the engagements of France towards this country without the sanction of Parliament. I think that would be an engagement which is not supported by precedent, and which would be of inconvenient consequences. We are under great responsibility in this matter to be sure as to the ground under our feet—as to the state of public opinion, and the views of those interested and competent to judge. I do not believe we are likely to do wrong in that respect, or to go in advance of public opinion; but I do not think we can enter into any engagement in the matter at the present moment.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

said, the object of his Question was this. In 1860 it was necessary that the Treaty should be laid before Parliament, inasmuch as the duties in England had to be lowered; but if an arrangement were now made with France that the existing duties should be retained for a certain number of years against new variations to be introduced into the French Tariff, it was perfectly plain that the conditions on which the Treaty of 1860 was based would be changed; and he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, if, in consequence of that change, he would lay the new Treaty before Parliament previous to its ratification?

MR. GLADSTONE

That is rather a nice question, Sir; but I am afraid I cannot enter into any engagement beyond what I have said. I think we have been very cautious not to proceed without ascertaining our ground, and we shall continue to be so.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, he wished to put a Question to the Prime Minister arising out of the proceedings of the House in 1860. In that year, the Treaty with France involved an alteration of existing duties. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether the answer he had jnst given, with respect to reserving the functions of the House, was to be understood to extend to reserving the power of imposing duties, as well as of altering existing duties, in accordance with any agreement contemplated by the Government with France?

MR. GLADSTONE

said, that, as a matter of course, in a negotiation of this kind, if the power of Parliament was reserved, that reservation would preserve the power of Parliament intact and entire, either to lower, raise, or do anything else.