HC Deb 18 August 1881 vol 265 cc224-7
MR. PARNELL

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been directed to a paragraph in the "Pall Mall Gazette" of August 16th instant, in reference to the case of Mr. John P. M'Carthy, a respectable merchant of Loughrea, county Galway, in which it was stated that Mr. M'Carthy was last week sent to gaol for two months with hard labour, without the option of a fine, for being found in possession of an old flint pistol, without a licence, although Mr. M'Carthy declared that he thought it had been sold for waste iron at an auction in his absence; but M'Carthy's request for a week's adjourn- ment to get the help of a solicitor was refused; and whether he approves this conviction, in view of the circumstances surrounding it?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

, in reply, said, he had not seen the paragraph alluded to; but he understood that it appeared on the 16th instant. It was not a correct statement. The facts were that this man M'Carthy was brought before the resident magistrate, when it was proved that the police found an unlicensed pistol in a wardrobe in his house, and he was sent to Galway Gaol for two months, but not with hard labour. The hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) asked him if he approved the conviction. It was not his business, as Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, any more than it was the business of the Secretary of State for the Home Department in England, to express approval or disapproval of sentences; but he thought it right to state that he could understand that the resident magistrate thought it necessary to put the law into strict operation in regard to the carrying and possession of arms, inasmuch as there had been four murders in the district quite recently, and all of them with firearms.

MR. PARNELL

Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether the pistol was an old flint one; whether Mr. M'Carthy declared that he thought it had been sold as a piece of old iron at an auction sale; whether delay for the appointment of a solicitor had been refused; and whether there was any Minister in the House to whom an appeal could be made with reference to magisterial action in Ireland?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

I do not know what Mr. M'Carthy may have declared, and I do not think it is necessary to enter into the evidence. I know nothing about the pistol—whether it was an old one or not. If the hon. Member wishes to know why the house was searched, I may say it was because there was reason to suspect that a person there was connected with one of the recent murders. The other part of the Question should be asked of my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland. I do not know about the refusal of an adjournment. That rests with the magistrate.

MR. PARNELL

I had intended to put another Question which stands on the Paper in my name in regard to that case to the Attorney General for Ireland; but it has become unnecessary to ask it in view of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, that the conviction was not accompanied with hard labour. But I beg to give Notice that I shall, on a future day, ask whether or not the pistol was an old flintlock pistol, and whether Mr. M'Carthy's request for an adjournment in order to get professional help was refused? I will now ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, whether there is any Minister in this House to whom hon. Members can appeal to reverse the decisions of magistrates in Ireland?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, he did not know of any such power either in England or Ireland.

MR. PARNELL

I wish to know what Minister has the same power in regard to magisterial action in Ireland as the Secretary of State for the Home Department exercises in reference to such matters in England?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

I suppose that the Lord Lieutenant has the same power in Ireland as the Secretary of State for the Home Department has in England of advising the Crown to grant a pardon, if he thinks that course a proper one to take. I am not aware that there is any other power than that.

MR. PARNELL

What I wish to know is this—whether, when any Member of this House desires to put a Question with regard to magisterial action in Ireland, he should put the Question to the English Secretary of State for the Home Department or to the Representative of the Lord Lieutenant for Ireland in this House?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

I understand —and I have the same experience in the House as other hon. Members—that when a Question is asked with regard to the decision of a magistrate in England, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if he considers that the decision requires it, asks the magistrate if he wishes to offer any explanation. I do not myself consider this to be such a case.

MR. PARNELL

Am I to understand that the right hon. Gentleman considers that he is entitled to exercise similar functions with regard to cases in Ireland as are exercised by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in England?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

I certainly consider that, acting on behalf of the Lord Lieutenant, it would be within my power, and within my duty, if I thought a case required explanation from the magistrate, to ask for it.