SECOND READING. (Hansard, 4 August 1881)

§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR
said, he wished to draw the attention of the Speaker and of the House to a point in this Bill which, he thought, was of some importance in a general sense, though it might not appear at first sight to involve anything very serious. He read in the 16th clause of this measure these words— On and after the passing of this Act, no person shall be allowed, after examination, to graduate at any of the Universities of Scotland until he shall have paid, as a registration fee, a sum not exceeding twenty shillings to the general University fund of the University at which he wishes to graduate. Now, that was an imposition of a tax on the subject, and the Bill containing it had been brought from the House of Lords. The House of Lords, he believed, had no right to impose such a charge. On more occasions than one—on many occasions—the House of Commons had declined to proceed with a Bill which involved the imposition of a charge upon the people coming from the House of Lords; and in Sir Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice he found these words— So strictly had the right of the Commons been maintained in regard to the imposition of charges upon the people, that they denied to the Lords the power of authorizing the taking of fees, and imposing pecuniary penalties, or of varying the mode of suing for them, or of applying them when recovered; though such provisions were necessary to give effect to the general enactments of a Bill. Then Sir Erskine May went on to say— A too strict enforcement of this rule, in regard to penalties, was found to be attended with unnecessary inconvenience; and, in 1831, the Commons judiciously relaxed it; and, again, in 1849, they introduced a further amendment of their rules, by the adoption of the following Standing Orders— 919 'That, with respect to any Bill brought to this House from the House of Lords, or returned by the House of Lords to this House with Amendments, whereby any pecuniary penalty, forfeiture, or fee shall be authorized, imposed, appropriated, regulated, varied, or extinguished, this House will not insist upon its ancient and undoubted privileges. In the following cases:— '1. When the object of such pecuniary penalty or forfeiture is to secure the execution of the Act, or the punishment or prevention of offences.' As to the 1st clause, he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) admitted that this particular provision in the Bill was not covered by it. The second provision was— Where such fees are imposed in respect of benefit taken, or services rendered, under the Act, and in order to the execution of the Act, and are not made payable into the Treasury or Exchequer, or in aid of the public revenue, and do not form the ground of public accounting by the parties receiving the same, cither in respect of deficit or surplus. He would submit that this imposition of a fee was not of such a character as to come within the condition of that Standing Order, because it was not imposed in respect of "benefit taken or services rendered." It was imposed after examination, precedent to graduating in the Scotch Universities. The object of this Bill was, not to enable people to graduate, but to make provision for the registration of voters. The last condition was this—"When such Bill shall be a private Bill for a local or personal Act." He would submit that this was not a mere local or personal Act; therefore, it did not come within the third condition of the Order. Therefore, having regard to the invariable practice of the House, there was only one course open to the House—namely, to decline to proceed with the consideration of the Bill. He submitted this matter to Mr. Speaker, first of all, as a point of Order.

§ THE DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. LYON PLAYFAIR)
This is not a tax at all. The Universities have to appoint registrars and clerks to keep the registration books; and, having no fund out of which the expenses can be defrayed, they charge a small fee for the services they render in making the graduate a member of the General Council for life. In some of the Universities the fee just about pays the cost of the service the University renders. In one of the Universities it yields rather a small profit; but, as a rule, it just represents the 920 amount expended by the Universities on the registration book. It is no tax, but a payment for a service rendered by the University to the men it enrolls.

§ MR. HEALY
said, on the point of Order, he wished to remark that so recently as Monday last, in the Coroners (Ireland) Bill, the House of Lords having inserted a provision to the effect that the Grand Juries might, at the end of five years, if they thought fit, revise the salaries of the Coroners, which salaries were a charge upon the county rates, this House disagreed with the Lords' Amendments, and refused to allow it to be considered. In this case there was no tax imposed on the public whatever.

§ THE DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. LYON PLAYFAIR)
It was a charge on the county rates.

§ MR. HEALY
It was not a charge on the county rates. The Amendment was simply to give power to the Grand Juries every five years to reconsider the question of Coroners' salaries.

§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR
said, that not only was there a charge made on the graduates for the purpose of defraying the expense of having them enrolled for voting purposes, but it imposed a fee on him in his character of graduate for a degree in the University. The words are— No person shall be allowed, after examination, to graduate at any of the Universities of Scotland until he shall have paid, as a registration foe, a sum not exceeding twenty shilling's to the general University fund of the University at which he wishes to graduate. He contended that this, coming from the House of Lords, was against the Privileges of the House of Commons.

§ THE DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. LYON PLAYFAIR)
It appears to me that this case is governed by the second paragraph of the Order of 29th July, 1849, which states that— Where such fees are imposed in respect of benefit taken, or service rendered, under the Act, and in order to the execution of the Act, and are not made payable into the Treasury or Exchequer, or in aid of the public revenue, and do not form the ground of public accounting by the parties receiving the same, either in respect of deficit or surplus. It appears to me that the fees contemplated are to be charged for the purpose of effecting this registration; and I do not, therefore, see sufficient ground for 921 the Bill being laid aside in consequence of informality. That is my own view of the subject.

§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR
said, his objection was that the clause said that a man should not be allowed to graduate without paying the fee, not that it said he should not be eligible to vote. The object of the Bill was to establish a proper registration of voters, and yet it declared that a man should not be allowed to graduate without paying a certain sum of money.

§ MR. R. N. FOWLER
said, that the fee was paid by the intending graduate at the London University before any examination took place at all.

§ MR. HEALY
said, that was not the point. The point was whether the House of Lords had a right to impose a fee upon the public before allowing them to enter the Universities.

§ MR. J. A. CAMPBELL
said, that the object of the Bill was to effect an improvement in the manner of conduct-Parliamentary Elections in the Universities, simplifying the existing arrangements and assimilating them, so far as practicable, to those already in use in elections for the University offices of Chancellor and General Council's Assessor in the University Court. This matter was referred to by the Scottish Universities Commissioners, who reported in 1878. A Bill dealing with the subject was introduced into this House and passed in the early part of the present Session; but in the House of Lords, owing to an accident, it became a dropped Order. A noble Lord who had been a Member of the Commission had accordingly introduced another Bill—the one now before the House—which equally carried out the recommendations of the Commission as well as other minor changes which had commended themselves to the Universities. It proposed what was believed would be a great improvement in the matter of registration. There were evils found attending the present system of registration, and it was to cure those that the provision to which the hon. Member for Queen's County objected had been inserted in the Bill.