HC Deb 24 June 1880 vol 253 cc800-10

Order for Second Reading read.

MR. PARNELL,

in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, he hoped the House would allow him to take that stage of it on the present occasion. He should not have moved the second reading at so late an hour, but for the pressing emergency of the case, and because if he now neglected the opportunity of not obtaining the opinion of the House concerning the measure such an opportunity would not again arise owing to the difficulty which private Members found in obtaining consideration for their Bills. The provisions of his Bill were of a very simple character. In the first place, he proposed to appoint a Commission which should be charged with the relief of distress in Ireland, the Commission to consist of the Chairman and two honorary Secretaries of the principal organization which had been engaged in distributing the sums subscribed in relief of distress in Ireland during the past half year. The Commission would have the usual power of appointing a Chairman; and he proposed that there should be set aside for the purposes of relief of distress in Ireland £200,000 of the Surplus Funds of the Irish Church, which should be used as the Commissioners might think fit in relief of distress in Ireland. It was, of course, dangerous—to use the saying of President Lincoln—to swap horses when crossing a stream; but this seemed to be the process which was being pursued by the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in reference to this question of relieving distress in Ireland. For six months the Relief Committees had afforded assistance to the distressed districts with but little assistance from the Poor Law Boards or the relief works. The subscriptions which these bodies had collected and distributed had now, however, almost come to an end; and they were face to face with the position that during the next month or six weeks some 500,000 people, who had been fed through the agency of the Committees to which he had referred, would have no one to look to for their daily bread. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant said he relied upon out-door relief as a means of meeting the difficulty; but this system of relief was dependent upon the Boards of Guardians, which in Ireland had never been employed for this purpose. He was of opinion that he spoke the sentiments of those best able to judge when he said that he viewed with the utmost apprehension the result of trying such, an experiment as was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman, who had informed the House that in consequence of certain Boards of Guardians having failed to do their work he had decided upon dissolving them and appointing officials to do their work. This was all very well; but he doubted whether such officials would be able to cope with the existing distress. The Chief Secretary had, of course, the utmost desire to do all that was possible; but it was to be feared that the right hon. Gentleman did not know to the full the nature of the difficulties which were before him, and the magnitude of the crisis which was impending. It would be difficult to retrace any steps that might be taken after the mischief had happened and the people had died in large numbers of the famine fever which had broken out in many districts of the country. In these circumstances, he hoped that the House would accept the proposal which was embodied in his Bill, and would enable the Relief Committees which had, up to the present time, done so much good, to continue their work with the assistance of a grant of public money until the present crisis had been passed, and happily, with the blessing of a good harvest, the existing distress had been tided over. The system of out-door relief in Ireland was not managed in the same way as it was in England. It was in Ireland looked on by every Poor Law Guardian with the utmost repugnance and aversion as a plan opposed to all their most cherished convictions, and one which, in the present instance, would necessitate the borrowing of money that would have to be repaid by ratepayers, farmers, and others, who were reduced to great straits by the same circumstances which caused the poorer classes to be very poor indeed. He was afraid that the Chief Secretary would recognize the dislike to the system of out-door relief too late either to save his reputation as a Minister, or to save the lives of many of the Irish people. He believed that his proposal would prevent much suffering and save many lives within the next six or seven weeks; and he therefore asked the House to read it a second time, promising that when the Committee stage was reached he would carefully consider any proposal that might be made for its amendment. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Pamell.)

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

protested against any proposal which would put the Irish Land League—a Communistic association—in the possession of public money.

MR. PARNELL

said, he had no desire to do anything other than to relieve Irish distress; and if it was objected that the Land League should not be intrusted with part of the work of distribution, he should be perfectly willing to omit it from the Bill.

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

said, the Land League had been largely engaged in promoting electoral contests in various parts of Ireland, and the speeches made by its Members, especially in Leitrim—

MR. FINIGAN

rose to Order. As one of the Members of the Land League, he denied the truth of the statement made by the hon. and gallant Member for Leitrim (Major O'Beirne), that the Land League was a Communistic association.

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member who has risen to Order is himself out of Order in his interruption to the observation of the hon. and gallant Member for Leitrim (Major O'Beirne).

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he would not enter into a discussion as to the Land League, for the reason that the present was not exactly the occasion on which he should be expected to give an opinion on the subject. He would only say that, in his view, the hon. Member for the City of Cork did wisely in offering to withdraw the League from the bodies mentioned in the Bill as those to be charged with the distribution of the sum to be granted. The question raised by the Bill was a very serious one; but he could not, on behalf of the Government, accept the Bill of the hon. Member for the City of Cork as a solution of the difficulty. Personally the Bill, if passed, would be a very great relief, for it would take off his shoulders a great deal of responsibility, and it would also tend considerably to lighten the responsibility of the Local Government Board; but he did not think this ought to be done. The Poor Law Board was now at work dealing with this matter; and he saw no reason for interfering with their work, especially as the granting of public money in the way suggested by the hon. Member for Cork was altogether without precedent. There could be no doubt that in some districts the distress was very great; but in the West of Ireland it had been generally checked, and the Poor Law had been found sufficient for the purpose. It was true that a necessity had arisen for dissolving certain Boards of Guardians; but the Executive Government had put in their places other Guardians who, as he had reason to believe, were doing their duty and distributing considerable sums in the payment of out-door relief. As far as the fever was concerned, it arose during the continuance of the work of the Relief Committees, and could not, therefore, be said to have resulted from a discontinuance of the charitable relief. Furthermore, he had been unable to discover that the fever was famine fever. The last accounts he had received were more favourable; and he did not think the fever would be found to be more serious than any epidemic which might have occurred at any time and in any circumstances. He could not, therefore, admit the necessity for passing this unprecedented piece of legislation. He thought the House must rely upon the Poor Law Board to do the work, and upon the Irish Executive Government to keep that body up to its work, which, as a general rule, they were doing very satisfactorily at the present moment. There were certainly one or two Unions in a disorganized condition; but this was mainly due to the fact that they were heavily in debt before the difficulty came upon the country, and it had been found necessary to make loans to them. He did not oppose the Bill because he had no desire to see the distress put an end to, but because he thought it was the duty of the Local Government Board and the Board of Guardians to do what was necessary, in the way of out-door relief, to meet the difficulty.

MR. MELDON

said, the main ground of objection which the Chief Secretary for Ireland had urged against the Bill was that he did not see why the local authorities in Ireland should be relieved of their responsibility to provide relief for the distress which was known to exist; but he (Mr. Meldon) had been unable to find anything in the Bill which would have that effect. All that the Bill would do would be to enable the Committees, which had done their work so well up to the present time, to continue that work for some six or seven weeks longer. It was true that in 1847 Parliament did not make any grant for the relief of the distress; but the circumstances were different, and he hoped that, on the present occasion, the small sum which was asked for by the Bill of his hon. Friend the Member for Cork would be granted, and that thereby many lives would be saved in different parts of Ireland.

MR. A. M. SULLIVAN

said, there could be no doubt that the proposal contained in this Bill was very singular, and one likely to strike the minds of English Gentlemen as not proper to be encouraged by the Legislature; but in his view the measure was justified by the extreme urgency of the case. The Parliament had not relied upon the ordinary processes of law to maintain the peace in Ireland; and he asked it now, in a moment of dire necessity, to depart from the ordinary modes of affording relief in order to preserve the lives of a large number of the Irish people. In former periods of distress in Ireland, whatever was done by the Government of the day came too late by several months, and all their efforts were outstripped by voluntary organizations, prominent among which were those of the Society of Friends, which did more to save life in Ireland than was done by the Government. The hon. Member for Cork now asked the Government to do temporarily, and on a small scale, what they ought to have done on former occasions, for no one could contend that by the administration of out-door relief in Ireland was the present emergency to be met. In some of the Unions the tenants, and even the Guardians of the poor themselves, owing to failure of their crops, were in positions of difficulty, and had, therefore, a great repugnance to taxation. He protested strongly against the exhibition which had been made on the opposite side by the hon. and gallant Member for Leitrim (Major O'Beirne), who had objected to any part of the sum mentioned in the Bill being distributed by the Land League, simply because he had been compelled to spend a few beggarly pounds in obtaining, or retaining, his seat.

MR. BIGGAR

said, Her Majesty's Government were perfectly willing to plunder the Irish Church Fund in the interest of the landlords in that country; but they would not give a single shilling of it to save the poor from starvation and death. He appealed to the Government to change their resolution in reference to this matter, and give a second reading to the Bill of his hon. Friend the Member for Cork (Mr. Par-nell). He also wished to tell the hon. and gallant Member for Leitrim (Major O'Beirne) that the Land League spent no money at all in the contest which he had for his seat.

MR. MACARTNEY

supported the Motion for the second reading of the Bill, on the ground of the exceptional state of things which existed in Ireland at the present moment. There was a great disinclination on the part of the Poor Law Guardians to do what they ought from fear of increasing the rates, which would have to be paid by people who were themselves in a condition of comparative distress. When the Irish Church was disestablished, the present Prime Minister said the best use that could be made of the funds would be to apply them to the relief of unavoidable distress in Ireland. An opportunity of so applying some part of the money was afforded by the present Bill; and he begged the Government to see that lives should not be sacrificed even though some part of the money asked to be given might be wasted by getting into the hands of unworthy persons.

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN

said, he hoped the Government would not disregard the wishes of the Irish people in reference to this matter as they seemed disposed to do. The highest possible encomiums had been passed upon the action of the Committees which, in Dublin, had administered the funds provided for the relief of the distressed people; but when it was asked that the Government would enable those Committees to continue their work for an exceptionally short time objections were raised at once. The Irish people were, by this Bill, simply asking for some of their own money, in order that the supplies of food might not be suddenly stopped in districts where the most grievous necessity existed; and even if the demand was not founded on the strict doctrines of political economy it had a perfect justification in the exceptional circumstances which had arisen.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Morgan Lloyd.)

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

said, he was very sorry that the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant had not been able to see his way to assenting to the second reading of this Bill, for he could not but regard it as unfortunate that the right hon. Gentleman had opposed every proposal for the relief of Irish distress which had come from the Party to which he (Mr. O'Connor Power) belonged. As, however, he understood that the Motion for the adjournment of the debate had the assent of the Government, he was willing to take the fact as an indication that the Government were not unwilling to re-consider the announcement which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman. If this was so, he hoped a decision would be reached as speedily as possible, for time was short and precious in reference to a matter of this urgency. He hoped that the Irish Executive would be able to see their way to consulting the Irish Members, irrespective of Party, on broad questions affecting the interests of the country, as was in former times done in the case of the Scotch Representatives, in order, if possible, that a harmonious course of action should be taken in preference to a hard and fast line which might have been suggested and almost decided upon. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, before attempting to deal in the short time which still remained of the present Session, would think fit to summon an informal meeting of the Irish Members of the House in order to ascertain their views as to the measures most likely to meet the wants and necessities of the country.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, it was clear that nothing could be easier than to take money from the Surplus Fund of the Irish Church for the purpose of relieving distress, as was proposed by the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork City. But he could not help thinking that it would be dangerous to relieve the local authorities in Ireland from responsibility in reference to the maintenance of the poor, and so to release property in that country from bearing its due proportion of the burdens which should be borne by it. If he did not think the Poor Law Board could contend successfully with the difficulty, he should be inclined to accept the present Bill; but as he believed, after careful consideration of all the facts, that the Board was quite equal to the task, he could not, as at present advised, accept the proposals of the Bill, which would, he thought, set a dangerous precedent.

MR. BYRNE

said, he should be inclined to agree with the right hon. Gentleman in reference to the question of Poor Law relief, if such relief was administered, as in England, as out-door relief, to all who were destitute, and without reference to the cause of such destitution, and whether it was or was not in a Scheduled Union, and that it would not be necessary for families to go into the workhouse and be separated from each other. He did not think the system proposed would be the wisest or best for meeting the present emergency; and, therefore, he hoped the Government would assent to the second reading of the Bill.

COLONEL COLTHURST

thought the best means of relieving distress in Ireland was by a proper and wise administration of the Poor Law; and, further, that an adoption in its entirety of the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork would involve an abnegation of the responsibilities and duties of property owners to contribute towards the maintenance of the poor. He had no particular objection to the making of a grant in relief of distress; but he hoped it would be so arranged that the distribution should take place through the medium of the Boards of Guardians.

MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY

said, he thought it a fair and reasonable proposition that a portion of the Surplus Funds of the Irish Church could be applied to the relief of distress, and that its distribution should be intrusted to the persons, who, as members of the Committees already in existence, had done so well the work which they undertook. While he objected strongly, as a general principle, to the maintenance of people by means of alms, he could not shut his eyes to the fact that the present was a case of the utmost urgency; and, therefore he supported the second reading of the Bill under discussion.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, that if the debate was adjourned he would bring the whole subject under the con- sideration of his Colleagues at the next Cabinet Council; but he wished it to be clearly understood that in his own particular case he was opposed to the principle of the Bill, on the ground that it would set a bad precedent in Poor Law administration.

DR. LYONS

could not admit that the passing of the Bill would relieve the ratepayers to any appreciable extent of their responsibilities; because, though the sum asked for was a large one, it would not afford more than a very small sum per head of the distressed population in the way of relief, should it happen, as some feared, that Ireland would shortly have to face a further period of continuous distress. If he had any fault to find with the proposal of the hon. Member for Cork, it was on the ground of its inadequacy, and not that it was too extravagant in its scope. In his view, no sum less than £500,000 would be sufficient to meet the case. Should there be another bad harvest the Irish people would be visited by famine and fever. He was extremely glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary had consented to consult with his Colleagues, and while that consultation was in progress, he hoped both the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Cork would consider carefully the financial aspect of this proposal, and make up their mind as to whether they had asked the House for a sufficiently large grant to meet the emergency should it arise.

THE O'DONOGHUE

said, he liked the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork chiefly because it had held out a prospect of immediate relief and was approved generally by the Irish Members, who knew the wants and wishes of their countrymen, and who knew that the Board of Guardians would not and could not do all that was necessary to cope with the distress by the distribution of out-door relief.

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

hoped the question would be adjourned in order that his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland might bring it before the Cabinet and seek a decisive opinion upon it.

MR. PARNELL

agreed to the adjournment of the debate, and said he would put the Bill on the Paper for the following Monday on the understanding that no unfair advantage should be taken of the adjournment to block the further progress of the measure.

Question put, and agreed to.

Debate adjourned till Monday next.