HC Deb 24 April 1879 vol 245 cc1086-94

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 2 (Appointment of Solicitor for Public Prosecutions).

MR. MORGAN LLOYD

said, that he did not intend to move the Amendment that stood in his name, by which it was proposed to vest the nomination of the Public Prosecutor in the Secretary of State for the Home Department, because he understood that the Bill, as it already stood, was in accordance with what was usual under the circumstances. He would only say that his object in placing the Amendment on the Paper was that of throwing the responsibility of making the appointment on the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in order that it should be known at once who was responsible for it. After the explanation which the right hon. Gentleman had been good enough to give him with regard to the point, he did not propose to move the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. RAMSAY

had listened to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the occasion of the second reading of the Bill, and had understood from him that this was intended as an experimental measure in order to enable the people of England to acquire some knowledge of the system of conducting criminal prosecutions by a Public Prosecutor. Having some experience of that system in Scotland, he thought that if the experiment was to be satisfactory in England, it would be necessary not to have such provisions as the Bill contained when it was introduced; because, in his judgment, there was no definite mode prescribed for the conducting of public prosecutions, nor was there anything in the Bill which could prevent any number of gentlemen being appointed to act in cases which were considered of sufficient importance. He did not think that such a system would enable the people of England to judge how far public prosecutions might be acceptable to them. It was necessary, no doubt, to deal with the system in a tentative manner, but in such a way as would enable the country to come to an accurate opinion on the subject. With regard to the Amendment which stood in his name, the object of it was that the Secretary of State should appoint any number of officers, not exceeding 10, to act as Prosecutors of Offences in Criminal Courts. The view which he entertained on this matter, and which he would not occupy much time in stating to the Committee, was that there should be one person appointed Director of Prosecutions, acting under the Attorney General, and, in addition, one assistant in London, and one in each Circuit, acting respectively within an area to be defined by the Secretary of State. With regard to the area, he understood that the right hon. Gentleman was advised that it was in his power to define the area within which each of these officers would act. But he thought that it would be unsatisfactory to leave that question on the construction of the Statute. If the Secretary of State was to have the power of defining the area, he did not think that it should be left to be implied from the construction of the terms of the Statute, but that it should be clearly expressed. For that reason, he thought there should be an Amendment expressly giving the Secretary of State power to define the area within which each Public Prosecutor should act. The Amendment placed on the Paper by the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary proposed that he should have power to appoint any number of Prosecutors not exceeding six. But he did not think that that number would be sufficient. He would repeat, that his view was that there should be one Director of Public Prosecutions and one Assistant Resident in London for the Metropolis, and one in each of the Circuits into which England was divided. For that reason, he had submitted his Amendment that the number of officers should not exceed 10. He begged to move, in page 1, line 9, to leave out "an officer," and after the word "appoint," to insert "any number of officers not exceeding 10."

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

understood from his hon. Friend that he entirely agreed with the object of the Bill, and that he had not a single word to say against it. With reference to the Amendment proposed by him, he might say that he was satisfied from the investigations he had made that the number of officers he proposed to appoint—namely, six, would be sufficient. With regard to the other point, as to more expressly stating the definition of the area in which the official should act, that was under the control of the Home Office. He might say that his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General was of opinion that the Bill at present gave ample power to the Home Secretary to define the areas. He would, however, consider the question again, and, if thought desirable, insert an Amendment making it clearer that the areas were to be defined by the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

MR. RAMSAY

was satisfied with the explanation given by his right hon. Friend, and begged to withdraw his Amendment. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would see the necessity of more expressly stating in the Act that the area was to be defined by him.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MORGAN LLOYD

moved, in page 1, line 10, to leave out "Solicitor for Public Prosecutions," and to insert "Public Prosecutor." No doubt, this was a verbal Amendment; but he thought he could show that it was an Amendment of some consequence. In the first place, the term "Solicitor for Public Prosecutions" was too long a name for general use; the officer would probably be described as "solicitor"; and it would be necessary, in order to distinguish him from other solicitors, to give the entire definition, which was too long for practical purposes. Besides, there was a disadvantage in the name on account of its unfamiliarity. It gave an erroneous idea, if it gave any at all; whereas the term "Public Prosecutor" was well known, and had in principle been already accepted by the public. Therefore, he submitted to the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, that it would be desirable to insert the words "Public Prosecutor" in the Bill in all places where the words "Solicitor for Public Prosecutions" were found.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

observed, that his hon. and learned Friend was somewhat paradoxical; for while he stated that his Amendment was only verbal, yet he attributed to it some importance. He hoped that he would allow him to do as he liked with his own Bill. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that "Public Prosecutor" was a very much better term than "Solicitor for Public Prosecutions," and that the latter words would be likely to mislead the public. It was for the express purpose of not misleading the public that he had not used the words "Public Prosecutor." The notion of a Public Prosecutor, at all events, amongst the second branch of the Legal Profession, was that of a gentleman acting as a Justices' clerk; and if the appointment were to be given to that class, the practical result of the measure would be simply that they would, find themselves in the same position as before, and the same officers would be doing the same duties as they did at present, though under different titles and at an increased expense. It was not his intention that those gentlemen should have these appointments; and it seemed to him that the best title that could be used, under the circumstances, would be "Director of Public Prosecutions." He had, ac- cordingly, altered the name of "Solicitor for Public Prosecutions" into that.

MR. HERSCHELL

thought that the title of "Director of Public Prosecutions" would exactly define the duties to be performed by the officer to be appointed under the Statute.

MR. MORGAN LLOYD

would withdraw his Amendment, on the understanding that the right hon. Gentleman would make the alteration he had suggested.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On the Motion of Mr. ASSHETON CROSS, Amendment made, in page 1, lines 10 and 12, by substituting the words "Director of Public Prosecutions" for "Solicitor for Public Prosecutions."

On the Motion of Mr. ASSHETON CROSS, Amendment made, in page 1, line 10, after "salary" by inserting "not exceeding two thousand pounds per annum."

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, that he had to move an Amendment which stood in his name, in page 1, line 22, at end of Clause, to add the words— The regulations under this Act shall provide for the Director of Public Prosecutions taking action in cases which appear to be of importance or difficulty, or in which, special circumstances, or the refusal or failure of a person to proceed with a prosecution, appear to render the action of such Director necessary to secure the duo prosecution of an offender, and shall also fix the area over which the Assistant Prosecutors shall respectively he appointed and act.

MR. MORGAN LLOYD

observed, that it seemed to him that a very convenient mode of fixing the districts of the Assistant Directors would be with reference to the existing Circuits. He did not wish to move an Amendment to that effect, if something were done in respect of it; but suggested for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary that in fixing the areas over which Assistant Directors were to have authority regard should be had to the existing Circuits.

Amendment agreed to; words added.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 (Establishment of Office of Solicitor of Public Prosecutions.)

MR. HERSCHELL

moved the omission of the words "the Attorney General with the approval of." He ventured to think that it would be better that the Secretary of State should have the appointment of the Assistant, as well as the Chief Officers who were to carry out the system. The consequence of the omission of the words would be to vest the appointment in the Home Secretary. In consequence of that, it would be necessary to leave out the words "officers, clerks, messengers, and servants," and to provide for their appointment subsequently.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

moved, in page 1, line 24, to leave out "officers," and insert, "not exceeding six, and such."

Amendment agreed to; words inserted.

On the Motion of Mr. HERSCHELL, Amendment made, in page 1, lines 24 and 25, by leaving out the words "officers, clerks, messengers, and servants."

On the Motion of Mr. ASSHETON CROSS, Amendment made in page 1, line 27, by substituting the words "Director of Public Prosecutions" for "Solicitor for Public Prosecutions."

MR. HERSCHELL

proposed to add to the clause the words— The Attorney General may from time to time, with the approval of the Secretary of State, appoint such clerks, messengers, and servants as may, with the sanction of the Treasury, seem necessary for the proper execution of his duties by the Director of Public Prosecutions, and may assign them their duties.

MR. WHITWELL

inquired whether it was proposed under this clause that persons should be appointed in different parts of the country, or whether it was intended to centralize in London?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

stated, that his proposal was that the Director, with an Assistant, should be resident in London; but that the rest of the officers should be, as far as possible, connected with the existing Circuits.

MR. E. JENKINS

asked whether anything in the Act would prevent the appointment of a solicitor having private practice?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, that, if necessary, a clause to that effect would be inserted in the Bill.

Amendment agreed to; words added accordingly.

MR. COURTNEY

observed, that the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. B. T. Williams), who took great interest in the Bill, was not present. He should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State proposed to report Progress when his Amendments were reached?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, that the qualification to which the Amendment of the hon. Member related might just as well be inserted in the Bill as a separate clause.

THE CHAIRMAN

remarked, that the hon. Member for Carmarthen had given instructions to remove his Amendment from the Paper.

MR. RATHBONE

said, that upon the introduction of the measure his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary stated that it was intended only to be tentative. He thought it undesirable that the country should be permanently burdened with these Assistant Solicitors under these circumstances. There could be no difficulty, in his opinion, in getting Assistant Solicitors to undertake the duties on the terms provided by his Amendment; but it seemed to him undesirable to burden the country with a number of pensions, as would be the case if these gentlemen were appointed without the provision he desired to insert, and a change was afterwards made. He begged to move to add to the clause, as a separate paragraph— No Assistant Director of Public Prosecutions shall be appointed for any longer term than five years; but any person vacating his office, by reason of this provision, may be reappointed. Amendment proposed, In page 2, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "no Assistant Director of Public Prosecutions shall be appointed for any longer term than five years; but any person vacating his office, by reason of this provision, may be reappointed."—(Mr. Rathbone.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, that he had already informed the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. E. Jenkins) that no gentleman appointed under the Act would be at liberty to have private practice; and no one worth anything would give up his practice for five years on the chance of going back to it again at the end of that period. No man in his senses would do it. Although the measure was tentative, yet he did not contemplate that when the scheme was once started it would ever he abandoned. The only question was whether it should not be carried further. To get proper officers, he thought it would be necessary to assure them that if any change were made they would not be thrown upon the wide world again.

MR. RATHBONE

confessed he was not convinced by the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman upon the matter, because it must be in the knowledge of everyone that whenever changes were made the holders of offices were always most liberally dealt with. He did not think that the country should be burdened, in the event of changes, with the pensions of these gentlemen. Without actually incurring that liability, he thought that the officials would be satisfied that, in the event of a change, they would be fairly dealt with.

MR. COURTNEY

said, that the Home Secretary based his reason for making these appointments permanent from the fact that they would not otherwise get qualified persons. He might point out that the right hon. Gentleman had recently recommended barristers for appointments in Egypt for a term of five years; and it was not supposed that those persons were without ability because they occupied the appointments on those terms. The gentlemen accepting the appointments would know that if the scheme worked well they would be continued, and that if it did not, though they had no right to pensions, yet they would be fairly dealt with.

MR. DILLWYN

also thought that it would be desirable to have some mode of getting rid of the officials to be appointed under the Act.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir JOHN HOLKER.)

said, that it would be impossible to get good Assistants, if they were only to be appointed for five years at the outside.

MR. DILLWYN

thought that this was a very important question, and should be debated in a fuller House than was then present. He suggested that Progress should, therefore, be reported.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Dillwyn.)

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

did not wish to continue the debate, if it was the general wish of the Committee that Progress should be reported.

MR. RATHBONE

expressed a desire to take the sense of the Committee at once upon his Amendment.

MR. DILLWYN

said, he would withdraw his Motion, as his hon. Friend (Mr. Rathbone) wished it.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; Committee counted, and 40 Members not being present,

Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,

House adjourned at half after One o'clock.