HC Deb 26 July 1878 vol 242 cc451-76
MR. ALDERMAN M'ARTHUR

, in rising to call the attention of the House to the administration of Native affairs in the Colony of Natal; and to move— That this House strongly condemns the policy of the Local Government of Natal in employing the machinery of British Courts in that Colony for the purpose of legalising polygamy and validating and enforcing native usages which recognise rights of property in women and children; and this House is of opinion that measures should at once be taken to promote the civilization of the native tribes, and to facilitate their withdrawal from the savage state, and recommends the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the subject, said, he would assume, as the basis of his argument, that the House, acting in accordance with its best traditions, was determined, not only to discourage, but to oppose slavery in all its forms; and that, whether Cyprus or Natal were in question, the British Parliament was resolved that the British flag should continue to be, as it had been for nearly half-a-century, the symbol of freedom to the slave and down-trodden races of the world. "Wherever England had planted her Colonies, she bad given them her institutions, throwing over the Native Tribes the shield of protection, and elevating them in the scale of humanity. Natal, however, although a British Colony, was an exception to the general rule. He did not ignore the difficulties which had to be encountered in that Colony, which swarmed with a semi-barbarous race. He did not ask the Government to engage in a Quixotic crusade against the Tribal system; for he believed that the best way to put an end to existing evils, arising from that system, was to educate and civilize the Native Tribes, giving their barbarous customs no countenance under English law. In the Colony there was a population of 350,000 or 400,000 souls, while the European settlers numbered considerably less than 20,000. The disproportion would at once strike hon. Members as being so great that it could hardly fail to prevent Natal, which occupied an area not larger than Wales, from ever becoming a White man's Colony. The Natives would always enjoy a large numerical preponderance, and it depended upon us whether that preponderance became an element of safety and progress in South Africa, or whether it involved us in danger and discredit. For 30 years Native policy in Natal had been determined and controlled by the will of one man. He would be sorry to ignore the fact that Sir Theophilus Shepstone had acquired enormous influence over the Natives, and had generally managed to preserve the peace of the Colony. It was to the credit of Sir Theophilus Shepstone that he had commanded the respect of the Natives for his authority; but still it could not be said that merely personal influence of this kind would insure security for the future. The loyalty of the Kaffir would be little worth to this country, unless it was attached by ties far stronger than the simple prestige of an individual officer of the Crown. The complaint he wished to make against Native policy in Natal was that, with the exception of those Natives who had come under missionary influence, the Kaffir locations were now very much what they had been 30 years ago. There were districts in which barbarism was segregrated, and where civilization, except by the punishment of offences against Native law, was not allowed to enter. The Natal Govern- ment evidently thought that if it could secure the peace of the country, suppressing or punishing cattle-stealing and like offences, it had discharged the obligations of a good and orderly government as far as the Natives were concerned. To that policy he (Mr. Alderman M'Arthur) entirely demurred. The Natives still lived, as they did in 1848, in clans; their Chiefs in grass huts; uneducated, and unable to communicate with the superior Chief except by verbal messages, they constituted more a heathen than a Christian Colony. What were the causes which had operated to perpetuate that unhappy state of things? The first was the continuance of the Native law, which was, for the most part, oral. There was no written code to which a magistrate could refer. Lord Carnarvon had established, more than two years ago, a Native High Court, presided over by English Judges, which, by reviewing the decisions of the magistrates, had acted as a check upon the local Courts; but an alteration of mere procedure did not necessarily improve the law itself, which was neither more nor less than the will of the Chiefs; and, unfortunately, the new High Court had served only to crystallize and to give permanence and the highest sanction of British authority to some of the worst customs of the Natives. One of these was polygamy, which involved woman slavery. Formerly, polygamy among the Zulus was generally confined to a privileged class— to Chiefs and other head men; but he had the authority of Mr. Akerman, a distinguished Member of the Natal Council, for the statement that the Natal authorities had permitted the practice among all orders of the people. The number of registered marriages under Law No. 1, of 1869, up to June 30, 1875, was returned as follows:—2,225 Natives had registered the purchase of the second wife; 818 the purchase of the third; 343 of the fourth; 156 of the fifth; 80 of the sixth; 45 of the seventh; and so on, two having registered a 24th wife. It was monstrous that polygamy should be recognized, and that the code of Utah should be grafted into the legal procedure of a British Colony. Practically, no Native marriage in Natal was legal, unless the ceremony took place with the heathen rites of the Natives, and thus the taint of illegitimacy rested upon Kaffir children whose parents had been married by a lawfully-appointed minister of the Christian religion; and the law, as administered by English magistrates and Judges, was dragging women and children, in certain cases, back into the darkness of heathendom. But the charge against Native law was even of a graver character. All the Native female population of Natal lived in a state of unquestionable slavery, being bought, sold, inherited, and their price recovered by law, like any other property. Although this practice of selling women like cattle could not be put down at once, yet he contended that it ought to be discountenanced by the English Government and receive no sanction from British Courts or officials. But this course had not been adopted so recently as the 14th of November last. In September of last year, a Native of Natal, named Charlie Dingeswaya, surrendered his property for the benefit of his creditors, and the sole asset was the price which he believed his infant daughter would fetch when she was married— namely, £50. A large proportion of the eases in the Courts related to the sale of women; and questions of property of this kind had often to be settled by evidence as to the sale of mothers, and even of grandmothers. The matter was made worse by the fact that civilized Natives found it difficult to obtain any advantage from the Law 28 of 1865, ostensibly passed to enable them to acquire the privileges of British subjects. In several cases, where Natives had applied for certificates of citizenship, and had fulfilled the conditions of the law, interminable delays took place, as if to wear out the patience of the applicants. Some of these cases were brought before the right hon. Gentleman who so worthily represented the Colonies in the House, and—thanks to his prompt interference—the Petitions of several of these Natives had, according to the statement of the Native Government Gazette, been complied with. The Law in question contained no less than 38 clauses, which made it so complicated that it was almost impossible for a Kaffir to avail himself of it; and, therefore, he thought the best means of putting an end to, or at all events greatly mitigating, the evils arising from that and from the Native law, might properly be made the subject of investigation by the Commission which he desired Her Majesty's Government to appoint. There were other questions besides those mentioned which he would like to have considered by a Commission. The Natives of Natal contributed largely to the taxation of the country. He believed the quota paid by the Kaffirs amounted to upwards of £60,000; and this sum was collected without difficulty. He asked the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies to inform the House how much, in return for that large contribution to the Revenue, was expended on educational agencies or works of public improvement in the Native districts? The Kaffirs, as taxpayers, were entitled to more consideration than they at present received at the hands of their Rulers. There were a few mission stations in Natal; but the efforts of the missionaries could not be expected to be attended with much success until the Government changed its policy and took up the question, and established industrial and other schools in the Native districts. If the Government provided the Natives with extensive facilities of an educational character, the expenditure, regarded simply as an investment, would yield a very large interest. The Kaffirs were an intelligent and improving people; they were not a race ever likely to die out, and they had real capacity for civilization. But, in order to develop that capacity, it was necessary that we should become their teachers, as the Basutos had been taught by the missionaries. The Reports of Mr. Griffith, the British Resident in Basutoland, showed that, under the guidance of the missionaries, the Natives had made immense progress in the industrial arts. One of the missionaries, Mr. Dyke, had stated that 20,000 Basutos were under the direct influence of Christianity. The House would remark the fact that, while the Basutos were large exporters of wool and grain, they were, in return, good customers and traders of our merchants. In fact, it was becoming a very valuable Colony, and if it got fair play it would take up a very good position. Another matter to which attention should be specially directed was the tenure of land. A Committee of Members of the Colonial Legislature had inquired into this subject, and had made some most important suggestions, which had been transmitted to the consideration of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and which, if adopted, would lead to the most beneficial and valuable results. They recommended that the Kaffirs should be given possession of lands in a form more binding than the permissive occupation under which they had held them, and should thus be led to feel that they had a real and permanent interest in the well-being of the Colony, and were no longer dependent upon the will of their Chiefs. That course had also been recommended by Sir Benjamin Pyne. But, in order to insure the success of any enterprize, peace was necessary, especially in the neighbouring territory of Zululand. Many persons were apprehensive that war would break out between ourselves and the Zulus in consequence of our having inherited a boundary dispute from the Boers. It was impossible for Her Majesty's Government to ignore the rights of the Zulus, or the fact that when the Boers ruled the Transvaal we had regarded their title to the disputed land as one which we could not support. We could afford to be just and even generous to the Zulus, and he had no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies would be both. It was of such vital importance that our relations with the Zulus should be placed on a permanently satisfactory footing, that a Commission might well inquire into this important subject. Our past policy had been very injurious and required to be changed. Great Britain could gain no glory for victories over uneducated and savage tribes; her glory ought to be to raise, educate, and confer upon them the blessings of freedom and Christianity, and thus to make them happy and prosperous; they would thus be made the means of carrying those blessings into the interior of Africa. He, therefore, begged to move the Resolution of which he had given Notice.

MR. ALDERMAN COTTON,

in seconding the Motion, said, that looking at the Cape as one of the most promising of the English Colonies, he did not think a discussion on this subject would be waste of time. He quite concurred with the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Alderman M'Arthur), that polygamy was one of the most serious defects in the life of the Colony, and that the condition of the Native women called for some consideration from the Government, for they were nothing but slaves. That fact, combined with their having a money value, being worth from £5 to £500, obliged the young men to resort to robbery and violence to obtain wives, and that was the root of most of the Native wars. The last war at the Cape was undertaken, in the words of the younger Natives, "to make widows," so that they might be able to possess the women they so ardently desired for wives. Owing to the serious events of the last few years, the mind of England had been too much distracted to pay due regard to the importance of our South African Colonies; but he trusted that would cease to be the case now that peace was settled. He was informed that the Cape Colonies were capable of maintaining a population of 40,000,000 of people; and in these days of rapid increase of population, it must be of immense importance to England to have such a Colony so near to her shores. The minerals at the Cape embraced almost every description known. There were coal in abundance, silver, gold, copper, and the diamond fields. He would rather that this debate had not been started until the House was in possession of the Report of the Colonial Inspector. Railways were all important to the proper working of the enormous quantity of land in South Africa that had fallen into the hands of the Government, and he hoped they would facilitate the construction of railways in the Colonies by means of guarantees. A railway from Delagoa Bay was contemplated, and it was of the highest importance to this country to obtain possession of that place and harbour from the Portuguese Government, which Government, he had been told, were willing to negotiate for its transfer. Natal was, indeed, a possession of immense importance to us; it was, he believed, destined to become one of the brightest gems in the British Crown, and would, no doubt, prove a great outlet for that emigration which was so necessary to the people of these Islands.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words " this House strongly condemns the policy of the Local Government of Natal in employing the machinery of British Courts in that Colony for the purpose of legalising polygamy and validating and enforcing Native usages which recognise rights of property in women and children; and this House is of opinion that measures should at once be taken to promote the civilization of the native tribes, and to facilitate their withdrawal from the savage state, and recommends the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the subject,"—(Mr. Alderman M'Arthur,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. W. H. JAMES

, who had upon the Paper a Notice, as an Amendment to Mr. Alderman M'Arthur's Amendment, to move— That, in the opinion of this House, the question of native law in Natal should he dealt with in connection with the general policy to be carried out towards the native tribes in South Africa, and that for this purpose a Royal Commission should be appointed to inquire into the subject, said, that he had no desire to oppose the Motion; but this question relating to Natal was only part of a very large subject that ought to be brought before Parliament. Comparatively little attention had been given to South Africa, and he thought, therefore, that before Parliament separated, they had a right to require some statement from the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Colonies with regard to the war which had broken out in Cape Colony. He was anxious to submit to the House an account of the state of our South African Colonies, and he thought there was matter for serious consideration in the fact that the Government of Cape Colony had shown itself most incapable of administering the affairs of the Colony, and the consequence of their action had driven those who took an interest in South Africa almost to despair. The result of this incompetent government had been disastrous both for the Colonists and for the Natives, a system of filibustering and marauding having been encouraged which had produced results which he scarcely dared to contemplate. The Kaffirs were the most numerous and most thriving part of the Colony of Natal, and, to secure their allegiance, it was necessary to show them that England did not go forth merely for the purposes of territorial aggrandizement, and for the spreading of grog and gunpowder; but for the introduction of better systems of administrations and the adoption of social reforms. They should also be taught that the real wealth of the country consisted in the produce of the soil. The Native population should be treated not only with kindness, but with justice and uniformity. Ho thought, between the Imperial and Colonial Legislatures, they might do much to promote education among the Aborigines. He wished to know, now that the Transvaal had been annexed, what steps Government were going to take for the improvement of the various races in the countries it was proposed to confederate? It was most important that efforts should be put forward without delay to educate the children, and develop that peculiar mechanical power which was so remarkable amongst these people. He would suggest, that for this purpose, industrial schools should be established throughout the Colony, and the work of education should be undertaken by the Legislature, either Imperial or Colonial, instead of being confined to missionary societies and voluntary efforts. There was no wiser mode of bringing about a reconciliation than to do something for their industrial improvement, keeping in mind the peculiarity of the Native, and the character of the South African race. Now that the war had been nearly suppressed, he wished to know what steps the Colonial Legislature were prepared to take in order to punish those who had broken out in revolt? He hoped, as regarded any indemnity, whatever steps might be taken, they would not be punished by either the confiscation of their lands or flocks. They should be compelled, however, to disarm. The Tribal tenure of land should also be broken up. The present Tribal system was one under which the Kaffirs were entirely in the hands of their Chiefs, and were prevented from pursuing peaceful arts. He asked the Government to state that, whenever an opportunity occurred, that system should be broken up. The uncontrolled existence of the liquor traffic among the Natives was a great evil, and the more so because of the vile liquors that were sold, and the prevalence of adulteration with fusel oil, tobacco, and vitriol. The proposal to introduce a brandy tax was strongly resisted by those interested. Some degree of responsibility might, perhaps, be secured by restricting canteen licences to those who kept bonâ fide hotels. Many brawls and disturbances, that had led to difficulty, had resulted from liquor shops being frequented by Chiefs and their supporters. Whatever differences of opinion might exist in the House with respect to the licensing system, there could be no doubt that in Natal canteens had been, and still were, the curse of the country; and he would ask the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary what steps Government intended to take in the matter? This House was involved in great responsibility to South Africa, where we had annexed more territory than anywhere else, except Australia. The late war broke out in October, and on the 13th of November it was announced that applications would be received for the settlement of the confiscated Crown lands. Surely, it would be better to do something to improve the industry of a population of nearly 2,000,000 than to carry on a war at a cost of nearly £100,000 a-month? The Report of Mr. Ashley, brother of the hon. Member for Poole, showed that improved administration and better locomotion would increase the produce of the land a hundred-fold. The question of what ought to be done might very well be relegated to a Commission, as had been done in the case of Demerara and the Mauritius, unless the matter were left to Sir Bartle Frere, who had been in the country two years, and than whom no one was better qualified to obtain the required information. There was a grand future before the South African race, and, while identifying our prestige with that future, we ought to do our best to secure equality and justice in matters of local administration as between Blacks and Whites.

SIR HENRY HOLLAND

said, that, agreeing as he did with much that had been said by the last speaker, and heartily desiring to see the Natives of South Africa civilized and placed on a footing of equality with the Whites, he desired to recall the attention of the House to the question immediately before it. The proposal of the Mover of the Resolution was confined to Natal; but the Amendment of the last speaker was that there should be a Commission for the whole of South Africa. There was no precedent for a roving Commission of that kind. Jamaica was a Crown Colony in which there had been an outbreak, and a Commission was sent there for a special purpose. The Commissions to the Mauritius and British Guiana had special reference to the treatment of Coolies, and were appointed on behalf of the Government of East India, with the assent of the Colonial Governments, the continuance of the Coolie emigration depending upon the Reports of the Commissions. This assent distinguished those cases from the present proposal. In Natal there was a representative Government, a certain number of Members being elected to the Assembly; and at the Cape there was a purely responsible Government, so that it would be a most unusual proceeding to send a Commission there. The appointment of a Royal Commission now would be inopportune. It would certainly excite disaffection in the minds of the Natives, and it was impossible to avoid considering that there existed at the Cape at this moment a great jealousy of interference on the part of the Imperial Government. This feeling would materially tend to weaken the effect of the Commission, and to hamper its proceedings. As regarded Natal, there had been no disturbance except the Langalibalele outbreak, of which the circumstances were very special; and, considering the enormous majority of Natives over the Whites, we could not shut our eyes to the fact that the Natives had been well treated, for otherwise it was quite certain they would long before have risen against the Whites. Owing to the judicious conduct of Sir Theophilus Shepstone, and the non-interference with the Native laws, the Natives had been quite peaceable and contented. No doubt, it was desirable that they should be more civilized; but he believed there had already been a considerable advance in civilization, and that the Colonial Governments were alive to the importance of advancing still further in that direction. What was a Royal Commission to do? As to the Native laws, no new light could be thrown on that subject. As to Colonial laws affecting the Natives, these all came before the Colonial Office for careful consideration. It was true that the Commission might suggest that there should be further means of educa- tion, but that could be done equally well by the Colonial Office. He failed to perceive, therefore, what good a roving Commission, with no special purpose, as in the case of British Guiana and the Mauritius, could be expected to effect. It would excite the Natives and really do mischief, instead of good. Lastly, he would observe that the terms of the Motion of the hon. Member for Lambeth were extremely unfair to the Colony of Natal, when it asserted that they employed the machinery of British Courts for the purpose of legalizing polygamy, and validating and enforcing Native usages which recognized rights of property in women and children. In point of fact, they did nothing more than secure to the Natives a just administration of their own Native laws. We, ourselves, objected to polygamy; but it was not so long ago that it was recognized by virtuous people quite as good as ourselves. If, then, the Natives professed polygamy, it would be very unwise for us to interfere in order to put an end to their Native laws on this subject. It would be impolitic and dangerous to force our English laws and higher code of morality upon them, except by degrees and with great care. He did not think anyone who had thoroughly watched over the Colony, as those had done who had been at the Colonial Office, could doubt that the Natives knew they would in the Courts of Law have the same rights dealt out to them as the Whites had. He really believed that, to appoint a roving Commission of this kind would be a great mistake, and would lead to mischief which the House was hardly in a position to realize.

MR. E. JENKINS

, in supporting the Motion, remarked, that if, at that moment, there existed in Natal a state of things which was a blot on our escutcheon, it was owing to the manner in which we had established a large Native emigration there. We had positively, through a long series of years, under the able management of one individual, created and organized a vast Tribal system out of the emigration into the Colony. There appeared to exist a state of feeling between the Colonists and the Natives which demanded the interposition of Her Majesty's Government. Of that there was abundant evidence in the official despatches. At present, we were not in a position to generalize on the facts as regarded South Africa, the views of different men being so various that it was most difficult to arrive at a just conclusion. A Commission of Inquiry, therefore, would probably be productive of good results. Apart from the cruelties perpetrated by the irregular troops, and the fact that looting was recognized as a regular part of warfare, he found that the Legislature proposed to confiscate the lands of the Native Chiefs, Sandilli, and others. Sir Bartle Frere, to his honour, protested energetically against such a measure; but the fact that it was proposed illustrated the spirit in which the Colonists looked on these questions, and proved the necessity of holding a strong hand over them. For his own part, he thought a policy of kindness should be adopted with the Natives, and among the necessary reforms for the improvement of the Colony which he would suggest were those—1st, the gradual supersession of the arbitrary power of the Native Chiefs by British, not Colonial, magistrates; 2nd, the establishment of individual, instead of Tribal tenure; 3rd, that there should be an entire suppression of the sale of intoxicating drinks in the Native districts; and, 4th, the immediate abrogation, by force if necessary, of the laws relating to the sale of women. He believed the inquiry, if granted, would yield much important, and, perhaps, unexpected, information, and that it would tend to avert the dangers and difficulties which appeared to be in store for us in South Africa.

MR. EVELYN ASHLEY

submitted that this was a subject on which much information was still wanting even inside the Colonial Office itself, and that it was one, moreover, which had an important bearing on our Colonial relations. He admitted that it would be a mistake to send a Commission of Inquiry to Cape Colony, where there was an established Government. The case, however, was different with regard to Natal, which was a Crown Colony; and he saw no objection to a Commission whose specific object should be to consider what ought to be the policy of the future with regard to the Native Tribes. One of the first reforms to be effected, he believed, was the breaking up of the "locations" or congregations of Kaffirs living in a state of original barbarism; but the question was, how that was to be effected. It was difficult to form an idea of the amount of evil which these " locations " fostered. The only civilizing influence in them at present appeared to be polygamy, as nothing was so great an inducement to a Kaffir to go out to work as the prospect of being able to buy another wife. As for the administration of Native law by British magistrates, no doubt it presented very great difficulty; but the real danger in discontinuing that practice would be that of throwing the Natives back on their Chiefs. The feeling that bound them to their Chiefs was well illustrated by the fact that Sir Arthur Cunynghame had offered in vain 1,000 head of cattle for information as to the whereabouts of Kreli, who was known to be in the neighbourhood. If we had to administer the Native laws, the question arose how we were to treat laws repugnant to our feelings. The answer was that all such laws and customs would have to be much modified; and although it could not be done immediately, he thought it was quite possible to gradually bring the Native law into harmony with our ideas of civilization, especially when it was remembered that the people themselves were pliant and docile. In one district, the mere introduction of the plough had had the happiest effects on the local industry, as the men thought it not derogatory to their dignity to use the iron instruments, and so far relieved the women of their usual drudgery. He would only repeat that he knew no reason why such a Commission of Inquiry as was proposed should have any detrimental results; and whilst, as a rule, he thought no greater mistake could be committed than for the Colonial Office to interfere too much in the internal affairs of the . Colonies, he was nevertheless of opinion that a Commission of Inquiry in this case would be of great assistance to Sir Bartle Frere in bringing to bear public opinion in favour of the measures of civilization which he was desirous to promote. Nothing of real importance could, however, be done until the powers of the Chiefs was broken down and the Natives were taught the habit of work. Another very serious question was that of the franchise. On the one hand, its extension as far as possible was desirable per se; and, on the other, care would have to be taken not to let the Natives get the upper hand of the Colonists. That, and all other questions, could be some day settled when the great capabilities of the Colony had been fully developed.

MR. COURTNEY

said, that as the subject before the House was the Natal marriage law, which did not exist at the Cape, it would be somewhat irregular that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into the latter Colony. It was also too much to say that a Commission of Inquiry was justifiable when its sole object was to provide cheap labour for a British Colony, and that it could not be allowed when the end to be attained was the removal of a blot upon our rule and of a danger to the Colony. The main fact to be borne in mind was that, under present circumstances, a woman in Natal was always the property of some man; and thus, when women came to be of a marriageable or disposable age, they were taken away from, any employment in which they might be engaged, and sold by the men to the highest bidders. He had heard of cases in which a girl, brought up and educated in an Englishman's household, was claimed by a male Kaffir and sold as his property. This extended to more than merely civil relations. Instances were on record in which, when crimes were committed against women, they were held to be no crimes, because the women were the property of the men by whom the crimes had been committed. It was said that when British rule was extended to Colonies, respect must be paid to the Native customs; and that, therefore, polygamy could not be at once, at any rate, abolished in Natal. He quite admitted the force of the argument or suggestion; but it must not be forgotten that, although we acknowledged the general principle in India, we had abolished suttee in that Dependency of the Crown. Having, then, abolished that dreadful custom, why should we not deal in the same way with the custom of woman-ownership, with its consequential polygamy in this case? The general question of appointing a Royal Commission of Inquiry was one which might be regarded from several points of view. The practical advantage of sending out a Royal Commission was that the Commissioners could see with their own eyes, take evidence, consult with the authorities, and, perhaps, suggest many things which might be hidden from persons here. There was one prin- ciple, at all events, which we might lay down—that, in the case of adults, there should be some sort of consent required on the part of the woman before becoming a wife. It might also be found possible to make the payment for a marriage licence progressively increase in second, third, and subsequent marriages. Again, we ought, by all means, to facilitate the transition of any woman who wished to go out from the Native system and put herself under our law. We had an Act on that subject already; but it was too complicated, and every sort of impediment had been thrown in the way of the Natives who wished to emancipate themselves from the law under which they lived. He did not think there need be any fear of irritating the Natives by such a policy. The Natives, on the whole, were content to live under our rule; they knew its advantages, and there were very many who wished to remove from the operation of the Native and come under the operation of the English law. He did not know whether the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Colonies was going to assent to the proposal; but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would undertake to urge on the Government of Natal to suggest some system by which this woman slavery—so horrible, so repulsive, so degrading, and in its fruits so full of danger to the Colony —might be ameliorated, if not altogether removed.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, that though the difficulties in the case were considerable, and such as we had not attempted to solve, yet the responsibility rested with us. It was a question which might fairly be considered whether a Royal Commission was the best way of dealing with the subject. He maintained that we had not yet given sufficient attention to the solution of the South African question, that the Confederation Bill had dealt with the question only from a European point of view, and not with reference to the Native inhabitants of the Colonies. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) succeeded at 3 o'clock in the morning in introducing some clauses tending to give justice to the Native population; but nothing adequate to the requirements of the case appeared in the measure. Remembering that polygamy was permitted and practised among five-sixths of Her Majesty's subjects, it would be difficult, and perhaps not expedient, to prohibit it in South Africa. As to the question of woman slavery, that practice was one which ought not to be tolerated either under the sanction of English laws, or by the operation of Native law. He doubted, however, whether the facts that had been stated amounted to slavery. If the payment of money in consideration of marriage amounted to slavery, we had something very like slavery in this country. It was a fair subject of inquiry whether slavery existed; but his view being that the terms of his hon. Friend's (Mr. Alderman M'Arthur's) Motion were not such as they should agree to, and that the question was not confined to the Colony of Natal, but was a South African question, he should infinitely prefer the proposal that stood on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. W. H. James), who suggested a Royal Commission of Inquiry into the position of the Natives and the Native law in South Africa. It seemed to him (Sir George Campbell) that this subject involved a question of the broadest kind —What was the nature of the Government we should establish in South Africa? The Government of India was a type under which Natives and Europeans were subjected to British rule. That government was intelligible, and, he thought, tolerably successful. There wore other kinds of government. In Australia we had given the Colonies complete self-government, and reduced British authority to a minimum. But there were other Colonies of an intermediate character, where there was partly a European community and partly a Native community. In respect to intermediate government, he did not think the Colonial Office had been successful. He was inclined to think that the great question as to what sort of government should be established in South Africa might best be dealt with by a Royal Commission of the highest character. Sir Bartle Frere had been involved in very great administrative difficulties, and it was scarcely possible for one man, in the face of those difficulties, to be able to deal sufficiently with the matter. The Royal Commission, he thought, should include Sir Bartle Frere and those other able men who had considered the South African question.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

No one can be surprised that the discussion of this evening should have travelled over a wide field. Important as the Native question in Natal may be, it is obviously inseparable from the larger question affecting the Natives in all the South African Colonies. And this subject occupies nowhere else the important and peculiar position that it occupies in South Africa; for there, perhaps, alone among the Colonies of the world, the White race and the Native race have prospered and increased side by side. While we admit that there is much in the present condition of Native affairs that needs improvement, it ought to be remembered—for hardly sufficient stress has been laid on this point to-night —that it is, at all events, something to the credit of English colonization and English humanity that in Natal and in the Cape Colony also, the Native race has not in the process of that colonization disappeared through the influence of civilization or whisky; but has been able to live alongside, and to increase and multiply even faster than, their White neighbours. All will agree with the hon. Member for Lambeth that measures should be taken to promote the civilization of the Native tribes, and to facilitate their withdrawal from the savage state; but, as has been observed, there are other statements in the Motion which cannot command the same assent. It contains assertions of opinion and concludes with a recommendation to which it is impossible that the Government can accede. It proposes strongly to condemn the policy of the local Government of Natal as employing the machinery of British Courts in that Colony for the purpose of legalizing polygamy, and validating and enforcing Native usages which recognize rights of property in women and children. We cannot accept this as a fair statement of the facts of the case. No doubt, Native law is recognized by the British Courts in Natal; but it must be remembered that over a large portion of our Indian Empire laws are recognized of the precise character of those which are deprecated in the Motion. It must be admitted that in dealing with such matters we can only act gradually. In our endeavour to bring to the Native races under our control the benefits of an improved civilization, we must gain their own support, and avoid such premature action as might enlist their prejudices against us. What has been the state of things in the Colony of Natal? The Native population there is largely in excess of the White population. Before 1873 the Native population of that Colony was only nominally governed by White authority. The Natives were left in their locations under the control of their own Chiefs, and were, practically, not interfered with by the Colonial Government. They were subject entirely to Native law, administered by their own Chiefs. It was found that this was a state of things, not only objectionable in itself, but positively dangerous to the Colony and to the whole of South Africa. Measures were taken to reverse that policy; to abolish, as far as might be, the Tribal organizations which existed, and to substitute for them the authority of White magistrates, who should decide cases and entertain appeals from the Native Chiefs. That was the first step which was taken; and, in taking it, I think it is clear that it was absolutely necessary to recognize Native law. We could not at once abolish all the Native laws and customs, and substitute for them White laws and customs; but we took an important step in endeavouring to substitute the authority of White magistrates for the Tribal organizations which have been so universally condemned this evening. What followed? A Law was passed by the Legislature of Natal, enacting that the Native law should be investigated by a Commission, reduced to writing, and carefully amended where necessary to bring it into harmony with civilized customs. The Commission was appointed, I think, in 1876, and not long afterwards those troubles began in South Africa, which, I fear, have not yet concluded. Some of the Members of the Commission had to leave their work to render still more important service in the Transvaal; and naturally, in the disturbed condition of affairs, the Government of Natal found it impossible to give that undivided and persistent attention to the subject which it might give in time of peace. Some weeks ago, a despatch was written, by my directions, to the Governor of Natal, calling his attention to the work of the Commission, and suggesting that if he thought it neces- sary other gentlemen should be appointed in the place of those who had Been removed, and asking for a Report of what had been done. Our first step must be to ascertain what the Native law is, and the next step, I hope, will be carefully to amend that law in those particulars where it requires amendment, so as to introduce the benefits of civilization by degrees among a population who have hitherto been unaccustomed to them, and to introduce them in such a manner as to induce the Natives to work with us rather than against us. The hon. Member for Lambeth has complained that the Natives are unable to transfer themselves from the jurisdiction of Native to that of Colonial law. Endeavours have been made by Statute to facilitate that process; but the difficulty is that the Natives prefer their own law to a law of which they are ignorant. Any such transfer must, therefore, be gradual and even slow; and the point to which our attention will most usefully be directed is the harmonizing, as far as possible, of the Native law with civilized ideas. I cannot admit that anything that has been done can fairly be described in the words of the Motion as an employment of the machinery of British Courts for the purpose of legalizing polygamy and validating and enforcing Native usages. The rule is that all matters in dispute between Natives living under Native law shall be tried according to the provisions of the Native laws for the time being prevailing, so far as the same shall not be of a nature to work manifest injustice or repugnant to the settled principles of natural equity. This was as far as it was safe to go at the time the provision was made. I admit that having begun to move in this direction w e should endeavour, as soon as possible, to bring our work to a satisfactory conclusion. But I am utterly unable to see what good a Royal Commission can do. It can give no further information with regard to Native customs than we have. Many of these customs may be objectionable, as some Native customs in India are objectionable; but a Royal Commission could not abolish them, nor in any way change them; and it might, on the other hand, create irritation and awake prejudices both amongst the Colonists and amongst the Natives, which would, in reality, retard the work we all desire to see accomplished. If that is true with regard to Natal, much more is it the case with regard to Cape Colony. This is the time of all others when an apparent interference of the Imperial Government with the responsible Government of Cape Colony might produce disastrous results. A Commission sent to inquire into questions of such difficulty, delicacy, and importance, as the Native question in a Colony possessing responsible government could, scarcely at any time do good; but, under present circumstances, it would do infinite mischief. In Sir Bartle Frere we have, at the Cape, a Governor who is better than any Commissioner. He has dared to act, under very difficult circumstances, with a moral courage which few men would have displayed, and he has earned unanimous approval in this country and the confidence of the great majority of the people of the Colony. He has throughout these difficulties shown that high humanity and that regard for the Native races which everyone who knows him and his past history would expect from him. He has done, perhaps, more than could have been conceived possible to mitigate the horrors of the war, which, I hope, is now happily concluded, and to secure its conduct under proper regulations by the Forces engaged in it. He has devoted special attention, under a great pressure of other work, to this question of the future of the Native inhabitants of South Africa. The hon. Member for Gates-head (Mr. W. H. James), I believe, quoted some despatches of Sir Bartle Frere's; but I may venture, although at this late hour, in justice to Sir Bartle Frere, to read extracts from other despatches to the House, because I think it ought to be known not only what attention he has given to this subject, but how thoroughly his views in regard to it are in accordance with the views of some of those hon. Members who this night have argued in favour of a royal Commission to supersede him. [Cries of "No, no!"] Well, what is the good of a Royal Commission, if you have confidence in him, and believe he will carry out what is desired? In a despatch of November 14th, 1877, addressed to my Predecessor (Lord Carnarvon), Sir Bartle Frere expresses his opinion that the agents employed by the Government in dealing with the Natives should be energetic and trained officials. He states that the Tribal system was a great obstacle to improvement, and could be easily broken down, and the authority of the Government made to supersede that of the Chiefs; that while the Government could do little to bridge the gulf separating the White from the Black, it could do much to regulate the sale of liquor; and that, looking only to the interests of the Native population, it was of vast importance to uphold the character and support the power of the Imperial Government. Then, Sir, in a despatch of the 9th of January, written in reply to a letter from the Aborigines Protection Society, Sir Bartle Frere develops his own conclusions on the Native question. He recommends that the carrying of arms only used for inter-tribal warfare should be stopped; there should be a good police and good Native tribunals; individual property must be respected, and obstacles against the holding of it removed; education of every kind, but especially industrial education, must be encouraged, and educated Natives employed in places of trust. He says that nothing could do more to prevent future Kaffir wars than the extension of industrial education to agriculture. Well, Sir, I could quote much more of the same kind; but I think I have read enough to the House to show what Sir Bartle Frere's policy is, and how much it is in accordance with the views which have been expressed this evening, which cannot but strengthen his hands in bringing that policy into action. I have shown how entirely unnecessary it would be to substitute for Sir Bartle Frere anything in the nature of a Royal Commission. If it be that Sir Bartle Frere requires any assistance either from this country, or in the Colony itself, in order to carry out his policy, I can only say Her Majesty's Government will most cheerfully afford it; but I entirely deprecate any interference with him in the work which I believe he is doing so satisfactorily, and I trust nothing of the kind will be sanctioned by this House. Now, Sir, I do not think it is necessary for me to detain the House much further. I am glad, so far as I am concerned, to express my hearty sympathy with much which has been said to-night. I cannot but think that, however late in the Session this debate has taken place, it will not be without good effect both in England and South Africa. I trust that now, when this war, which has occupied the attention of all who have been connected with the Cape Colony, including Sir Bartle Frere himself, for so many months past, appears to be happily ended, no time will be lost in attempting to deal with this most important question.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

I agree in what the right hon. Gentleman has said, that the hands of the Government and also the Colonial Government will be strengthened by what has passed tonight. With very much of what the right hon. Gentleman has said I entirely agree. I do not know that there is more than one remark to which I should take any objection, and I hope in that I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman. In alluding to the terms of the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth (Mr. Alderman M'Arthur) the right hon. Gentleman commenced by sympathizing with his object; but said that he went too far in advising that measures should at once be taken to declare polygamy illegal, and also the enforcement of Native usages which recognize rights of property in women and children. The words which I took down as used by the right hon. Gentleman in alluding to both these questions were that they were subjects which were recognized in our possessions in India. I think that is rather a mistake. Polygamy, undoubtedly, is recognized; but I do not think the slavery of women is recognized; and I shall be corrected if I am wrong in the statement. I can quite understand that there are enormous difficulties in the way of withholding from polygamy some sort of legal sanction; but I cannot imagine any hesitation in taking away legal sanction to anything approaching female slavery. I imagine, from the facts brought to my notice, that there is no doubt women slavery prevails to a great extent in Natal. I do not deny for a moment the enormous difficulty of dealing with it in this country; but I feel sure this House and the country, and the right hon. Gentleman himself, will not rest until we have done all we can, all that is possible to destroy it—in fact, that we shall not stop until we have succeeded in the effort. I confess I do not agree with the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Courtney) that, by abolishing polygamy, we should be decreasing the population of South Africa.

MR. COURTNEY

wished to correct the right hon. Gentleman. He had not said anything of the kind.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

I understood him to say that one good effect of stopping polygamy would be that there would not be so large an increase in the population. Such a thing, I do not think, will follow. It is a fact that the population increases very slowly in polygamous countries, and that the real increase in South Africa is not in consequence of polygamy, but because of the country coming under our rule of peace, order, and prosperity. I am sure there is no hesitation on the part of the Government to do what they can in the matters to which my hon. Friend has called attention. And now we come to the mode by which my hon. Friend proposes to effect his object. I confess I should think it a strong step to take to send out a Commission. I do not think it could go out merely as a Commission of Inquiry. It would have to be, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) said, a strong Commission. If we were to have a Commission strong enough to do the business at all, it would have to be so strong as to to almost overshadow the Governor. It is possible that Sir Bartle Frere himself might wish such aid, and if he did, I understand the Government would seriously consider whether they would not meet that wish. But at this moment we are, in one respect, in a fortunate position with regard to this Colony. We have certainly, as the Governor of the principal Colony, a man whom we can entirely trust for motive, for sense, and for ability, in this most difficult matter. I entirely agree with what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I think we might search the whole of our public servants, and with difficulty find any man who has that combination of feelings of justice and firmness of character which fits him to deal with this most difficult question. I do not know that the Government can do more than strengthen his hands as much as possible. I have no doubt that they will in their despatches, both to Sir Bartle Frere and the Governor of Natal, state that, although these are to a great extent self-governing Colonies, yet England cannot give them the assistance we see they require, unless we are sure they act in perfect justice to the Black population. This question of the Native law is not exactly a question between Black and White. It is a question of difficult government of Blacks; and one of the great arguments which made me feel strongly in favour of doing what I could last year, towards the Confederation of the Cape Colonies, was the hope that a large Colony—the Cape Colony— would be able to materially assist in solving that question. That, again, is a reason why it might be a very dangerous step to send out from this country a Commission to override the authority at the Cape; and I do not think that ought to be done, except in a case of extreme necessity. The hon. Member for Grates-head alluded to some acts of injustice which he thinks have been committed in the Kaffir War. That has been the case hitherto with regard to all these wars; but I have the satisfaction of believing and trusting that there has been much less of that injustice in this war than in previous wars. I am not saying anything in palliation of what has been done; but anyone who has looked at the history of previous wars will, I think, find there is an improvement. But there is no reason why there should be any of those acts of outrage, and I do not believe the Government will allow them to be committed, if it is possible to prevent them. I am quite sure that Sir Bartle Frere, and I believe our other Representatives, will do the same. I think we can look for much more from Sir Bartle Frere and our other Representatives than from a Commission, by letting them feel they are fully supported not only by the Government at home, but by the public opinion of this country. I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth will feel, after the manner in which he has been met by the Colonial Secretary, and the statement that the Colonial Office intends to do all it can to strengthen the hands of Sir Bartle Frere, that his object will be gained by withdrawing the Motion.

MR. ALDERMAN M'ARTHUR

said, after the speech of the Secretary of State for the Colonies he would withdraw his Motion. He was aware that he had not got the right of reply; but in explana- tion, he might say that he had not the slightest idea of reflecting in any way upon Sir Bartle Frere. On the contrary, he desired to strengthen his hands, and after the way in which the Colonial Secretary replied, he believed the debate would do good both in England and the Colonies.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.