§ MR. ARTHUR MOORE,in rising to draw attention to the condition of Pauper Children in Irish Workhouses, and to the necessity of taking steps to improve their condition, especially in the matter of industrial training, said, that a Report had recently been presented to the Government, and he presumed they would take action on that Report during the Recess. In "another place," a noble Lord introduced a Bill in which he was much interested, which related to the Commission. He presumed that some consideration would be given to the matter during the Recess, and that was why he now troubled the House with a few facts. He did not wish to attack existing Boards of Guardians. His belief was that in Ireland the Boards of Guardians did their duty as fairly as they could, and he had always found thorn willing to do all they could for the children. The fact was that thousands of children were distributed in small numbers through the Irish workhouses. The effects of that system were these. He believed that under the present system of workhouses, self-respect and self-reliance were destroyed, and that idleness and debasement and a lowering of the moral tone were the results. Before he proceeded further, he must admit that there was a great difference in the workhouses in Ireland. He believed that some were upon the whole pretty well managed; but he was sorry to say, from his own experience as one who had watched the question somewhat closely, that there were very great difficulties to contend with, which, he hoped, in time would be removed. He wished to draw attention to the history of these Irish workhouses. The first thing that happened when a man entered was that he was supplied with a suit of clothes, and they might read a mile off, on his jacket or on his cap " pauper " of such- 2052 and-such an Union. This was an unnecessary aggravation. He believed it did not exist in this country, and it was very objectionable to the lower classes who were obliged from poverty to seek those places. The pauper was then thrust into a common bath used by many, and, judging from the amount of opthalmia that prevailed, it was fair to infer that many came out not so well as when they went in. The pauper was fed from a common plate with many others, and he had seen them without any plate at all. In some workhouses, he believed, there still existed the practice of requiring them to drink out of a vessel chained to the table, as if they were robbers. They were kept a little short of starvation; they could not be allowed to starve, because the Guardians would render themselves amenable to the law; but short of that, the means of life were dealt out in a most niggardly way. In some workhouses, indeed, the food was so bad that it could not be of any service to the children. At some of the workhouses, he had heard that it was the custom to turn the children out at the early age of 10 years, when the harvest came on, to any farmer who would take them and give them their food. They would stay with him a short time until he did not care to keep them any longer, and then they would go to some other farm. They spent the winter in the workhouse, and endeavoured to re-learn what they knew before; so that really no one had any care or regard for them, and there was no practical supervision over them when they were out of the workhouse. He knew that, theoretically, the relieving officer was supposed to exercise supervision; but he knew also that, practically, those overworked officers could not exercise any supervision. The child returned to the workhouse, where, he feared, the system that prevailed would not contribute much to his welfare. It was a system where there was no proper supervision, where they mixed and mingled a number of boys and men, and where the examples were such that they might corrupt the whole lives of these boys. It was, therefore, perfectly necessary to have proper supervision. On one occasion a small boy, seven years old, had been severely flogged. He was brought before the Guardians, who could not discover by any means who had flogged 2053 that boy. He might have committed some offence, and he might have deserved it; but the Guardians ought to have had some knowledge of who had performed that punishment on the boy. It was done in the middle of the night, and no information could be got on the subject. The reason of that was that the whole supervision of these boys, in common with the teaching, was left to one man who, when wearied and exhausted by the work of the day, was unfit for the supervision of them at night. Under these circumstances, they ought to give an industrial training to these children to fit them for their future life. He had looked in every direction, but he found that in no sense were boys and girls in Irish workhouses prepared in any way for their future. Six might be learning the trade of a shoemaker and two tailoring, making 2, 3, or 4 per cent. He had no hesitation in saying that industrial training did not exist. He did not see why this system should prevail. It was nothing short of a penal system; it was not relief. He considered the whole system was a mistaken one. He could well understand that the system should be made disagreeable to the adult pauper who was an idle vagabond; but in the case of a child, pauperism was his misfortune rather than his fault. There was another side to this question that was thoroughly recognized by the naval authorities, and that was the absolute necessity for the separation of children from adult paupers. Another of the evils of Irish workhouses was this—that a great many of these young children were contaminated from mixing with adult paupers. In many cases their parents were quite unfit to associate with them. He would read three or four lines from the able Report of Mr. Lentaigne, himself a Guardian of the poor since 1838, and Inspector of Reformatories and Industrial Schools, whose name would be received with respect on all questions connected with destitution. Speaking to the Statistical Society in 1877, he said—
My knowledge of the working of the Poor Law, since its introduction into this part of the United Kingdom, has convinced me that the cheerless gloom, and degrading influences and habits found in the great majority of our workhouses, are not surroundings proper for the reclamation and training of those children whose infant life has been contaminated and passed in the haunts of vice.2054The pauper, whose adversity or misuse of life has driven him to end his days in a workhouse, is not the proper companion or instructor to form the character of youth. Broken down by adversity or degraded by vice, to him should not be intrusted the duty of imprinting on the weak but impressible mind of childhood a spirit of industry. He is unfit for such an office, and can never teach youth to do otherwise than to cling to charity for support. To prevent the vagrant and friendless child from degenerating into the criminal, far other and higher influences must be brought to bear, and no system short of that pursued in the Irish schools can ultimately be successful.It was not alone in Ireland that this opinion prevailed. A few weeks ago a most valuable Report was presented to the English Local Government Board by Mr. Henley, Local Government Board Inspector. He was sent out to America to learn what was done for the pauper children in that country. The first State he visited was the State of Massachusetts. He said—The children of this school are by law not treated as paupers, though they come from the pauper classes.He would read two or three more short extracts as to the necessity for separation. Mr. Henley said—The Legislature of New York, on the 24th of April, 1875, passed an Act to provide for the better care of pauper and destitute children, which made it illegal to commit any child over 3 and under 16 years of age to any poorhouse, unless such child be an unteachable idiot, an epileptic, or paralytic, or be otherwise defective, diseased, or deformed, so as to render it unfit for family care. But such children were to be sent to some orphan asylum, or other charitable or reformatory institution as now provided for by law. And the officers charged with the support and relief of indigent persons were to cause the removal of all children between the ages of 3 and 16, not exempted as above, from their respective poorhouses, on or before the 1st of January, 1876, and to provide for their support and care in families, orphan asylums, or other appropriate institutions, as now provided for by law. This Act was passed at the suggestion of the New York State Charities Aid Association. The reasons which influenced them are stated in the first annual Report of the Committee of this Association on Children, from which I will make a quotation—'The fact that the door of a poorhouse must be open to every person in need of its shelter makes it easy to see that it can be no fit place to bring up a child, for it is impossible to separate the different classes of its inmates. The children of a tramp and casual lodger cannot be kept apart from the resident children, and girls just growing from childhood are exposed to bad language and worse example from the vicious of their own sex, who are too often but little older than themselves.'2055 "To the same effect as the above quotations is the following, referring to Massachusetts, from the twelfth Report of the Board of State Charities:—'That the best poorhouse is but a bad place for children, no right thinking person will deny. The fact that they have been in such an institution tells against them whenever they go out. The enforced association with older inmates tends to corrupt them and nurture in them vicious habits. It breaks down their sense of self-respect and lessens their sense of self-dependence. Their minds are plastic and easily moulded. They naturally and inevitably come to look upon themselves as a class set apart for support at the public expense. Pauperism breeds pauperism. Through these children, who pass two or three or half-a-dozen years in the poorhouse, the line of pauperism is sure to be extended into the next century. From among them the ranks of the criminal classes are certain to be largely recruited, the road from the almshouse to the prison being one that is easily found.'He was not an advocate for detaining the House by copious extracts from Blue Books; but these were so entirely pertinent, that he might be excused for making them. He had spoken of the contamination from mixing the young with the adult classes. Another fact had come across his experience, which would hardly be credited when he mentioned it in that House, and which only need be mentioned to be put an end to. In some of the workhouses, women of the lowest class were employed as select nurses in the hospital. It was not the woman who had one or two illegitimate children; she was sent out to harvest. But it was she who had so many illegitimate children that she had to keep near them all day to attend to them. She was retained, when all other able-bodied paupers were turned out; and to her hands old men and children, and the sick members of the brave Irish Constabulary, who had no other hospital, were committed. In some work-houses, when children arrived at the age of 15, and owing to delicacy, or some other reason, had to stay in the workhouse, they were transferred to the elder ward, where every sense of decency they might have was soon wiped out through their being brought in contact with the vilest paupers. Every temptation was held out to them, by designing emissaries of their own sex, to apply for their discharge at as early an age as the rules would permit, and, when at liberty, without friends to advise or help them, without skilled knowledge to earn an independent livelihood, their ruin was speedily completed. He met with a most extraordinary instance in a rural workhouse. Three years ago, the 2056 Guardians of a certain Union made their inspection of that Union, and found it necessary to turn out a great many old and young, on the ground of their being able to earn their own living, instead of being a burden to the nation. Amongst them, they turned out three girls 15 or 16 years of age. These three girls went straight away to the house of the Roman Catholic priest and asked him to get them work, something to enable them to earn their livelihood. He said that was rather short notice; but if they would give him a little time, he would do the best he could. They left the priest's house and applied themselves to infamy and vice, and they remained common prostitutes in the streets for the last 13 years. A friend of his happened to go to a certain Board of Guardians in the North of Ireland. While he was seated in a room, 12 girls came into the room, all of whom were seeking the shelter of the house during their confinement. He trusted these cases were exceptional; but there was one thing quite certain, and that was —whereas, when boys were sent to a reformatory or industrial school, the results of those schools were tabulated; but with the Guardians, the moment the door was closed on an unfortunate child, their responsibility was then at an end. Why should not Guardians be called upon to furnish Returns? He held in his hand two letters; one was from the Chairman of a Board of Guardians in Ireland, who, speaking of his own Union, said that as a general rule, the children brought up in the Union workhouse did not turn out well; they had a tendency to crime of various kinds. That was a gentleman of good position, Chairman of the Union, and a wealthy gentleman. In another letter, a Roman Catholic clergyman, who had been connected with workhouses for 25 years, wrote that he had not known more than half-a-dozen children brought up in workhouses turn out well, and that they were idle, indolent, and unwilling to earn their bread by honest sweat. Now, he would appeal to his right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. Gibson) to take some steps to stop this, what he might call, waste of national strength. The existing practice was something like going to a shop to buy an article that they did not want, because it was at a low price. 2057 He had the honour of introducing a Bill on this subject. Eighteen Boards of Guardians in Ireland petitioned in favour of that Bill. He did not say it was a satisfactory measure. He looked for something much better; but this Bill drew attention to the facts, and showed that some change was required. A resolution was sent from the Roscommon Board of Guardians, which ran thus—That this Board, without committing itself to an expression of opinion as to the merits of Mr. Moore's Bill, desires to put on record that it considers that children who are dependent on public funds for their daily support are by right entitled to such industrial training as is calculated to make them useful members of society in after life; and. that it further considers that their retention in workhouses, subjected necessarily to association of a more or less intimate character with persons whose lives, from a social point of view, have proved failures, is calculated to exercise a prejudicial effect on their future career.This brought him to the two points he wished the House to see. What he asked was, for the Government to support the system of separation of the young from the adult paupers. It would be all very well if they could get a voluntary committee of ladies to carry out internal inspection. That was an admirable system, and he believed that when inspection was properly carried out the Boards would derive considerable benefit. What he asked the Government to do was what had been done in the United States, and what had been done to a less extent in England—namely, to establish large district schools, and take the children out of workhouses, and give them an industrial training. Under present circumstances, a grand opportunity was offered to the Government. Such a change would lead to the amalgamation of Unions and to some reduction in the number of workhouses. Accommodation was provided in Irish workhouses for 147,000; while the average number of paupers was 143,000. This gave as much accommodation as was necessary. In Connaught there was four or five times as much accommodation as was necessary, and in Ulster four times exactly. In a district of the county of Cavan there was eight times as much accommodation as was required. In another workhouse there was 10 times as much as was necessary. The workhouse in 2058 the county of Donegal had exactly 15 times as much accommodation as was necessary. These workhouses were kept open at great expense. In the workhouse at Ballycastle the average number on the list was 12 boys and 13 girls; they had to keep a heavy staff for 25 children. It was a monstrous waste of expenditure. In another workhouse there were six boys last year and 11 girls, making a total of 17. In the whole county of Monaghan there were 80 boys distributed over four workhouses. Then, he came to the county of Tyrone, where they had seven workhouses for 150 boys. He would not detain the House by going through the whole of the Return; but what he wanted to ask was that they should collect, in reasonable numbers, of course, the children in those industrial schools, and should give them the same opportunities for learning trades that he had seen given in the industrial schools of the English Metropolis. Let them be prepared for the Army and Navy; a very large contingent of the band boys in the Army were now furnished from the district schools, and he believed in that way a very large number of children were rendered useful members of society. Then, he should like to see the entire penal system abolished. He would treat the children as if they were Christians. Let them have amusements; make them happy and contented, and keep them until they were 15 or 16. They would never be content to fall back upon the old workhouse, after having experienced the happiness and comfort of those district schools. He believed that the most beneficial results would be attained. He would now come to the question of expense, and, in dealing with it, he should be very short. He did not think that the Guardians in Ireland would object to some increase of expenditure, if they saw a good result obtained from it. There might be some additional expense, but he did not think it would be very great. It had been calculated that the amalgamation of Unions would create a saving of £60,000 a-year. He did not know whether these figures were quite correct; but, nevertheless, there would be a very considerable saving. He had estimated the whole cost of bringing up these children on a different system. At present they were costing 2s. 11½d. 2059 per week per head, and he believed that for 2s. per week per head additional, they could be brought up on the system he advocated. That would entail an additional expenditure of £67,000 upon the 13,000 children now in the workhouses. But he believed that the question was one far above expense. He believed the real way to look at it was this—they had a grave obligation laid upon them with regard to these children, and the real question was— Were they discharging that responsibility well, either on behalf of the children themselves, or on behalf of the country of which they were members? He thought he had said enough to show that, so far as the children themselves were concerned, much more might be done. He believed that for the country it would not be a little thing if these children could be made producers as well as consumers, instead of being as they now were, consumers alone; and he believed it would be an economy in the long run to teach these children some means of earning their own livelihood. He appealed upon these grounds to the hon. Gentlemen present, and to the Government, to rescue these children from the career of idleness and worthless-ness, if not misery and crime, into which they were going, and to take them by the hand and lead them into paths of honour and self-reliance, and make them a strength to their country instead of a weakness.
§ MAJOR O'BEIRNEsupported the appeal made by the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. A. Moore). He thought that a fine field for recruiting for the Army and Navy was to be found among the pauper boys; but he must express the hope that if the Government agreed to direct their attention to the point raised by his hon. Friend, they would be careful to prevent any tampering with the religion of the children, which he knew had. taken place, in some instances, with Catholic boys.
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. GIBSON)said, he believed the House was under an obligation to the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. A. Moore) for the very able manner in which he had brought that very important question before it. Anyone who took as much interest in the pauper children of Ireland as the hon. Member 2060 deserved well of his country, for the extreme importance of the subject could not be over-rated; but it should never be lost sight of that Boards of Guardians were the parties who on the whole had control in this matter, and they could only have suggestions made to them. He ventured to hope that some of the extreme cases mentioned by the hon. Member were altogether exceptional in the administration of the Poor Law system, and that the attention he had directed to the matter would have a beneficial effect. The only Department over which the Government had any control was the Local Government Board, who, after examination, he thought it would be found had certainly not neglected the moral, physical, and educational welfare of the workhouse children. They had always desired that the children should have proper recreation and employment; and in the instructions given to the Inspectors they had directed that special attention should be paid to their condition, and every Inspector, on going the rounds of the workhouses, had to report to the Board how the children were employed, and how many of them were occupied in the various trades. It was also the duty of the Inspectors to see to the girls as well. The House would perceive, therefore, that the Local Government Board did everything in their power to alleviate the condition of the workhouse children; though, of course, if a child was obliged to go into the workhouse, it could not be expected that he would have the same comfort and excellent surroundings of other children. In one of the largest Unions in Ireland—the North Dublin Union—it had been found that a very large percentage of the children brought up there were readily and rapidly absorbed into the general population of the country, and engaged in proper and suitable employments. In very few instances had it come to the notice of the authorities that those children, when so absorbed, had misconducted themselves. The whole question—and especially that of industrial schools — was very important; but in the vast majority of cases it seemed impossible to exclude the children from all communication with the adult paupers, considering that in nine cases out of ten the parents of the children were in the workhouse with 2061 them. The Local Government Board had always given the closest and most anxious attention to the subject, and he had no doubt they would continue to do so.