HC Deb 07 August 1878 vol 242 cc1442-56
MR. DILLWYN

, in rising to move— That, in order to facilitate the consideration of the Civil Service Estimates, it is desirable that a Select Committee should be appointed at the commencement of each Session of Parliament to go through the details of such Estimates, and report generally upon those particulars which may appear most to demand the attention of the House, said, that year by year the House was finding its grasp upon the public purse becoming more feeble, whilst the Public Expenditure was assuming very large proportions, and was constantly and alarmingly on the increase. In 1857–8 the Army and Navy Expenditure amounted to £22,546,000, while this year, it was no less than £26,586,000. The increase in the Civil Service Expenditure was still more startling. In 1857 it was £14,340,000, and this year it had increased to £23,400,000. The total increase in the expenditure of the country during this period amounted to £13,100,000. Under the present system of conducting the Business of the House, the opportunities of discussing the Estimates were rapidly becoming fewer, and the control of expenditure more and more in the hands of the Government and not of the House. It was not creditable to the House of Commons, composed as it was of so many men of business, that they did not make better provision for inquiring into the details of the expenditure of the country. He had no doubt that the Estimates were all right; but it was the duty of the House of Commons not to take that for granted. The Estimates did not receive that full consideration which they ought to have, and he had noticed as recently as that morning that, during the small hours, a number of items which it had not been expected would come forward so soon had been "hustled" through Committee. He was much interested in some of those items; hut though he had returned to town specially to take part in discussing them, he was too late to do so. He was told that the House would he prorogued on Saturday week next, and there was still a great deal of Business to be done. The consequence would be that Business of an important character would be hurried through without any discussion. The hon. Gentleman was about to refer to the Resolutions which had been passed by the Select Committee on Public Business, when—

MR. SPEAKER

ruled that as those Resolutions were not at present before the House, the hon. Member would not be in Order in discussing them in connection with the Resolution which he had moved.

MR. DILLWYN

said, he would bow to the opinion of the Chair, and merely Bay that he hoped the House would agree with him as to the evil which existed and the remedy which ought to be applied. The Committee he would propose must not be a Government or a Political Committee in any sense, but on the Committee there should be a Representative of the Treasury Bench and a Representative of the front Opposition Bench. The other Members should be selected from both sides of the House, regard being had to the qualifications of hon. Gentlemen for dealing with the important financial questions which would be involved. He did not think the Report of the Committee should be a very voluminous one, but he thought no class of Votes should be taken in the Committee of the House until the Report on that class had been before the House for several days. He never remembered any year in which there had been so much difficulty in obtaining explanations as to the Votes as this year. He knew the difficulties the Government had had to contend with, and, therefore, did not blame them on that score; but he thought it demonstrated how great an assistance such a Committee as he proposed would be to the Government and the House.

MR. RYLANDS,

in seconding the Motion, said: It is not my intention to occupy much time in supporting the views of my hon. Friend, as he has laid them fully before us; but I am bound to say that as the Session approaches its close, the manner in which the Estimates are taken is such as to produce an absolute public scandal. I do not want to express myself in unreasonable terms in reference to the course the Government have taken; but I do feel humiliated as a Member of this House, and representing a large number of electors deeply interested in the Public Expenditure, when I consider that under the condition in which the Estimates have been laid on the Table for consideration, I am utterly powerless to criticize, to check, or control the expenditure, however unnecessary and wasteful, in my judgment, it may be. Between 1 and 3 o'clock this morning several millions of money—I believe I am correct when I say between £7,000,000 and £8,000,000 came before the House—and I venture to assert that the way in which the House dealt with these heavy items of expenditure was an utter farce. Not the slightest practical consideration was given to them; and so far as the House of Commons is concerned, the Government might as well be intrusted with the utmost control over the expenditure, for they would then have had that responsibility which is always urged against any such proposal as we have now before us, and we in the House would be free. I am bound to say, after what has been said, that the Government were entirely justified in proceeding this morning. I quite understood— and I think it was generally understood —that the Government intended to bring on the Civil Service Estimates last night. I am bound to admit that at 1 o'clock I had the honour of a conversation with the hon. Baronet the Secretary to the Treasury upon the Business to be brought forward, and it was understood from his statement that, while the Supplementary Army Estimate would be postponed until to-day, the ordinary Army Estimates, and as many of the Civil Service Estimates as could possibly be taken, would be proceeded with, though the House was sitting late. It is only right to say this in justification of the course taken, and I daresay if any of us had shown any opposition to that course, the Secretary to the Treasury would not have pressed it. But it is impossible at this time of the Session to stand in the way of the Estimates by claiming from the Government sufficient time for the consideration of them. Already a great many hon. Members of the House have left London, and those who remain are wishing to get away as soon as possible —so that those who prolong discussion on the Estimates are considered very disagreeable characters indeed. In seconding this Motion, I must guard myself thus far—that I am not quite sure whether the terms of the Motion offer the best arrangement under which the preliminary examination of the Estimates could be advantageously con-ducted; but I must call the attention of the Government to this fact—that we are, perhaps, the only Legislature in the world where a Committee is not appointed for bringing under consideration the proposals for expenditure introduced by the Government. You have such a Committee in the Assemblies of France, Italy, Belgium; and in all parts of the world you will find that the Representatives of the people do retain in their hands the means of controlling the expenditure, and do exercise it by means of a Select Committee. I am quite aware that the Government will say that we shall diminish the responsibility of the Government in regard to the Estimates; but you must make your choice between two courses—either you must diminish the responsibility of the Government, or you must remove responsibility from the Representatives of the nation. Of course, the House of Commons is responsible for the expenditure, and, therefore, it ought to have effectual means of controlling expenditure; but it has no such control at the present moment. We do not, in proposing to give this means of control, wish to lessen the responsibility of the Government; but we wish to strengthen their hands in resisting the constant pressure brought to bear upon them by the permanent officials of the Crown. The House and country should know that it is not the political servants of the Crown, who occupy the front Bench opposite, who have the greatest control over the expenditure of the country; but it is that large permanent class of officials who are always in office, no matter whether this or that political Party commands the majority in the House, who, in every Department of the State, remain in office, and being fully informed upon all details, are relied upon by the temporary officials for a large amount of guidance and instruction. You have this great permanent class of officials, with interests directly opposed to other classes—with an interest to promote the spending of the public money by the increase of appointments, rapid promotion, and increased amounts of superannuation, so that they may have the full advantage of the position they occupy as servants of the Crown. I venture to say it is this influence of the spending servants of the Crown that puts pressure upon the heads of Departments to extend the operation of Depart- ments, and to enlarge Government administration. It is to this important class that we, I believe, far more than to any political Party, on one side or the other, are indebted for the increase in the burden of taxation and expenditure continually going on. I know the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and every Gentleman who has had experience in the Treasury, must be acquainted with the fact that one of the greatest duties of the Treasury is to keep down the claims of the different official heads of Departments. I know that it was so in the last Government. I cannot say that I was intimately connected with that Government, but I was associated with many Members of the late Government, and I had abundant opportunity of knowing the persistent pressure put on the Government, with the view of increasing this or that branch of expenditure, and I think the present Secretary to the Treasury will assent, when I say that pressure is still going on under the present Government. I know perfectly well it is a disagreeable thing to resist that pressure. Perhaps there is some permanent official who is a very clever, very useful, and most agreeable fellow, having at his command a great amount of information, and he goes to his political Chief and presses upon him some extension or alteration in the administration of the Department. The political Head, influenced by the ability and agreeable manners of the permanent servant of the Crown, very likely thinks the proposal submitted is one calculated to promote the Public Service. He then goes to the Treasury to ask their consent to the change proposed, and we know what hard work it is for the Treasury to resist this constant pressure in all directions. We are not by any means bound to the words of this Motion; but I do venture to urge on the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he should seriously consider whether he cannot adopt some scheme of the kind in practice among other nations, by which, while by no means releasing the Government from its responsibility, we should, at all events, have the advantage of placing the Estimates under such sifting supervision that it would enable the Treasury to rest, to some extent, on that criticism by the House, as an additional reason for resisting the pressure of Departments for increasing expenditure. In pressing the matter, I have no political considerations; for I know perfectly well, whichever Party is in power, there is always this tendency to increased expenditure, and I am perfectly alive to the fact that every year these permanent officials get more and more influence over the political officials. Anyone can see what I can see, with my short Parliamentary experience, what is the consequent effect on the expenditure of the country. Administrative questions, formerly referred to Select Committees, are now referred to Departmental Committees, and as these are mainly composed of men occupying important permanent posts under the Crown, the tendency is to shut out Parliamentary control, and keep the House in ignorance of administrative matters, giving to these officials an opportunity of recommending changes which do not promote the interests of any but those recommending them, and add to the weight of taxation continually being piled on our shoulders. I venture to say that this constantly increasing expenditure is to the Government of the country a serious political danger. I believe that in the course the Government are taking in enlarging official administration, now in one direction, now in another, under the influence of those permanent officials, who believe they can control local administration bettor than the people concerned, that the disposition of the Government to enlarge the control of Departments will add to the great sum total of the national expenditure; and, unless some serious step is taken to keep down that expenditure, and to get rid of scandals known to exist from the fact that large sums of public money are paid to men whoso public services do not entitle them to it, and unless something is done to deal with the superannuations which every year are becoming more monstrous in extent, I believe the time will come when, under some great public pressure —some state of public distress and dissatisfaction—strong and serious dangers will arise from the scale of expenditure in this country going on from year to year, increasing apparently without check, and with every addition to that expenditure casting an additional burden upon the shoulders of the people of this country.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in order to facilitate the consideration of the Civil Service Estimates, it is desirable that a Select Committee should be appointed at the commencement of each Session of Parliament, to go through the details of such Estimates, and report generally upon those particulars which may appear most to demand the attention of the House,"—(Mr. Dillwyn,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the proposal which the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) had made was, no doubt, one of considerable importance. In one form or another, it had been brought under the attention of the House from time to time. He quite admitted that the Motion was worthy of consideration, though he did not think that the House would do well to adopt it. Two wholly different questions had been raised—first, how best to facilitate the consideration of the Civil Service Estimates; and, secondly, how best to prevent obstruction, and enable the House to get through its Business. With regard to the first point, he doubted whether the appointment of a Select Committee of this sort would be advantageous. It would to some extent diminish the responsibility of the Government, by throwing upon the Committee the unpleasant burden of criticizing, objecting to, and keeping down the proposals of the different Departments. He thought a permanent Department of the Government, having the advantages which the Treasury possessed of Executive experience and knowledge, was better qualified really to deal on system with the proposals of the other Departments than any Committee which could be appointed for the purpose. What was to be the function of that Committee? Was it to supersede, or to be in addition to, the work of the House? He thought there would be great jealousy of 20 or 30 Members of a Committee sitting upstairs, deciding that there was no necessity to raise questions upon nine-tenths of the Votes, and that only one-tenth of them need be discussed. On the other hand, if the Committee was not to supersede, or to be in addition to, the labours of the House, he very much doubted whether they would gain much in point of time. The points to which the Committee would draw attention would raise discussions. Under all the circumstances, having given a good deal of consideration to the subject, he did not think that it would be the best plan of dealing with these Estimates to refer them to a Committee upstairs. What he did think was that it was desirable that the Committee of the Whole House should deal with the Estimates more thoroughly and fully than they were able to do sometimes under the present arrangements. There had been every desire on the part of successive Governments to give the House full information on the matters that were submitted to it, and, at the same time, to do all in their power to arrange the Business so as to obtain a fair discussion; but they had been met with a variety of obstacles. Indeed, it really became a matter in which they had to make a choice of difficulties. If the principle was to be maintained of having discussion on all occasions before the Speaker left the Chair, in order to go into Committee on the Estimates, it was very difficult indeed to secure that the Estimates should be fairly and properly discussed. Nobody wished for a moment to restrain or fetter the exercise of that right, which was one of the fundamental and cardinal rights and principles of the House, of bringing forward questions of grievance; but, at the same time, a great deal of inconvenience arose from the attempt which was sometimes made to combine two things which were incompatible. An instance was furnished by the position in which the House was placed at that moment, when Members, having come down to discuss important Supplementary Estimates, found a list of some 20 Notices of Amendments on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply without knowing which, if any, of them would be proceeded with. In that way it often became necessary to put off discussion, or to prevent full and fair discussion of the Estimates. As to obstruction, he might alter and apply to the hon. Member (Mr. Dillwyn) a well-known quotation, and say that he— Vowing men should ne'er obstruct, obstructed; for he delivered a long and somewhat rambling speech upon a great number of topics, which, if now properly considered, would fill up a great part of the afternoon, and either render it necessary to put off the discussion of the Estimates, or prevent their full and fair consideration. He had never himself taken any very strong line with regard to obstruction. What he complained of much more than he did of obstruction was digression—digression not indulged in for the sake of obstruction, but really producing the effect which it was desired to avoid. As to the proceedings of this Session, it was certainly true that a good many of the Estimates had remained till a very late period. In consequence of the appointment of the Committee on Public Business, the Government did not this year ask for one clear day in the week for going into the Estimates, though this would have materially facilitated Supply. If, however, he went into all the reasons which made it difficult to get on earlier with Supply, he would be guilty of the same sin as he was protesting against. With regard to the Motion, he did not think that the strength of feeling in the House was such as to enable it to come to a decision upon it, and he therefore invited hon. Members to abstain from further discussion on the present occasion, and to go into Committee of Supply.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

was sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not taken into his favourable consideration the proposal of the hon. Member for Swansea, which had been long on the Notice Paper. A Committee such as that suggested would be of great advantage. Under the French system, the Estimates were reduced to a form which we might with great benefit take as a model, and these Estimates were submitted to a Standing Committee for investigation, and for report to the full Chamber. So far from impeding or extending business, the Committee's inquiry actually lessened the discussions. The reason was obvious to all who examined the French Estimates—these were fully as extensive and varied in kinds of expenditure as were our own Estimates. But by looking into the arrangements and details, the facts became clear that the greater portion of the charges in the Estimates were legal and could not be challenged, unless the broad policy for which money was needed was also challenged. The result was that a few charges were alone left for objection, and thus the attention of the full Chamber was given to the items so objected to, leaving the vast mass of the items in the Estimates to be passed without challenge. The marked contrast between the English and French practice was that every item in our Estimates was liable to be challenged. The experienced Members could easily detect the useless challenges, and could see that by occupying the attention of the House the objectionable charges were left unnoticed. The foundation of all correct accounting rested on thoroughly good Estimates, and the hon. Member's proposal of a Committee was well calculated to insure good Estimates.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, that he thoroughly sympathized with the object of the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn). The growth of the Civil Service Estimates was continuous, and alarming in more senses than as manifesting the mere growth of expenditure. Should the Motion now before the House be rejected, as he feared it might be, then the hon. Member for Swansea would do well to remember that it had been by independent action, and by means of an organization extraneous to the House, that the late Mr. Hume obtained a position in this House whereby he succeeded in largely controlling the Public Expenditure. Except by a laborious process of analysis, no one could compass the real position of the expenditure presented to the House in the form of the Civil Service Estimates. Mr. Hume established an office of his own; he employed several clerks, and so ably did he control this private establishment, that, by use of the information he thus obtained, he gained, after a time, such a weight in the House, as enabled him for many years largely to control the Public Expenditure. There was no reason that such an agency as Mr. Hume's should not be again established outside that House. The hon. Member for Swansea should look deeper into this matter, if he wished to arrive at the causes of this continual and exaggerated increase of the Civil Service Estimates. It was idle to expect that economical control could be effectively exercised over this increasing expenditure by Her Majesty's Ministers, who were either the temporary Chiefs, or subordinately connected for the time, during their tenure of Office, with the great Departments of the State. Her Majesty's Ministers were practically dependent upon these Departments for the infor- mation which they produced in that House, and upon which they acted. Under such circumstances, it was idle to expect those who had but a fleeting tenure of Office to exercise an efficient economical control over Departments, which consisted in the main of permanent officials, a body of public servants whose influence was continually growing. The House itself was largely accountable for the exaggerated expenditure included under the Civil Service Estimates. Session by Session, the House, largely by its legislation, contributed to the exaggeration of the Civil Service Estimates. The Session before last the House passed the Prisons Act, whereby it handed over the whole of the gaols to the Home Department, depriving, for this purpose, the local authorities of an enormous amount in the aggregate of patronage, and providing for a large addition to the Civil Service Expenditure. Again, this Session, the Bill for the Prevention of the Spread of Cattle Disease was sent to that House from the House of Lords in such form, that the slaughter of cattle at the ports would have been regulated directly by law. The House could not rest satisfied with that arrangement; it swept the whole of it away, and, in lieu of it, vested the Privy Council with very extensive discretionary powers, which were to be made dependent upon Reports to be obtained from agents abroad, and upon information to be continually supplied as to the condition of all the cattle landed at the outports of this country. This system entailed the employment of many additional agents, and, in consequence, must entail a large addition, as in the case of the Prisons Act, to the Civil Service Expenditure and Estimates. Thus largely and continuously down to the present day, the House went on providing by its legislation for the exaggerated increase of the Civil Service Estimates. High authorities— authorities whom he (Mr. Newdegate) highly respected—held that government by Commissions, which must be or become virtually irresponsible, was a bad form of government. The great Departments of the State, and especially the Civil Departments, were, each of them, under the action of the recent legislation to which he had referred, assuming the character of gigantic Commissions, and it appeared to him (Mr. Newdegate) that unless that House adopted some means to concentrate its power for financial and economical purposes, such as the hon. Member for Swansea proposed, it would find itself virtually impotent to control the growth, increase, and application of the expenditure, to which the Civil Service Estimates were intended to provide an index; and that some such action on the part of the House as the hon. Member for Swansea now proposed, was more and more essential to the discharge of that primary economical duty, which the House, by its very constitution, owed to the country.

MR. M'LAREN

complained of the late period of the Session, and the late hours at which Estimates were taken. He would give an instance of how adversely this operated on national interests. On Monday last, nearly all the Scotch Estimates were taken at a very late hour. He remained there until between 1 and 2 o'clock, and counted the Scotch Members who were present at several periods during the evening, and found there were only seven present, out of the 60 which were elected by Scotland. What had become of the other 53? A large number had gone to Scotland, and were entitled to do so; because those Members that came from a great distance were put to far greater inconvenience than those that came from a short distance. They were entitled, therefore, to absent themselves at as early a period as possible. Again, the effect of the Estimates coming on so late was that few Members were able to go over them, and the Government were just left to control the whole expenditure themselves, without any influence being brought to bear upon them from the House. He did not make any personal grievance of the delay, because, during the long period he had been in Parliament, he had always, with one exception of a few days, remained until the House rose; but it was a great injustice to those who, from whatever cause, were not able to remain so long. Another ground of complaint was that, when questions of importance came on at 1, 2, and 3 o'clock in the morning, the public had no opportunity of knowing what took place, from there being no report of their proceedings published.

SIR ANDREW LUSK

thought that if they dealt with their Business like business men, they could get through it well enough. If they adhered to the system of allowing every Member to ventilate every conceivable petty grievance of a beadle or a man in prison before going into Supply, they must expect to have a block of Business.

MR. MELLOR

supported the proposal of the hon. Member for Swansea.

MR. J. COWEN

said, he regretted the Government had not deemed it wise to assent to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn). They had had a very considerable amount of talk in the House and out of it during the last Session about the obstruction that was offered to Public Business. He was satisfied that the appointment of a Finance Committee such as was now suggested would do more to further Public Business, and to prevent what was popularly termed obstruction, than any wire-drawn Resolutions such as the Committee that had been sitting upstairs had recently agreed to. Every nation in Europe—or, he might almost say, every civilized nation in the world that had a Constitutional Government—had a Finance Committee. This body acted, not necessarily in hostility to the Government of the day, but as a helpmate and assistant in one sense, and as a check to official extravagance in another. Not only so; but Town Councils, Boards of Guardians, and Railway Boards, all had Committees to which financial questions were referred, where the items of revenue and expenditure were examined in detail, and the action of the authorities was subjected to a much closer scrutiny than it could be before the whole Council or the whole Board. He could not conceive why the Government could object to such a course. They ought not to have—he supposed they had not—anything to conceal. But there were many payments, of a comparatively insignificant character, easily explained to a Committee, which, to explain minutely to the House, would occupy a large amount of time, and not be so effective. The discussions that took place in that Chamber in Committee of Supply were desultory and deceptive. A few Members persevered with the inquiry from time to time, and others just dropped in occasionally as the conversations were going on. The same speeches were made for and against the payment of certain amounts year after year. Time was wasted by these debates, and really no useful information was conveyed, either to Parliament, or to the country. During the period the present Ministry had been in Office, he did not believe the House, with all its talk, had reduced the Estimates by as much as 6d. During the five years the late Government were in Office, all the change made was in defeating a single item, of no importance, one Session, and replacing it in the Estimates the next. If a Committee was appointed for the purpose of inquiring into the entire Civil Expenditure, the Members of that Committee would gain information that they could convey to the House authoritatively. An expression of opinion by them upon any Vote would be sufficient to deter needless discussion, and prevent an unnecessary Waste of time. He quite agreed with the hon. Member for Swansea that the Government wore, in a large measure, responsible for the backward condition of much of their Business. They introduced a whole lot of measures at the beginning of the Session; they carried them all on to certain stages, and then they stopped them. They renewed some and did not renew others. He had calculated the time lost in this way during the past Session, and he estimated that there had been fully 10 Sittings of eight hours each, or an aggregate of 80 hours, spent in debating Bills that were not persevered with. This time had been absolutely thrown away. If it had been given to the discussion of measures that were to be really pushed forward, the result would have been that at the end of the Session their labours would have been much more fruitful of useful legislation. The expenditure of this country was not only large, but was rapidly increasing. There was no necessity to get unnecessarily alarmed at this, because the expenditure of every nation in Europe was advancing also. Indeed, wherever a country was increasing in population and increasing in wealth, there would necessarily be an augmented expenditure. It was not the mere increase they had to look to, but the purpose for which the money had to be applied. It was not the amount to be voted, but the object for which it was to be spent, that ought to concern them. They would be unwise to fix a line, and then say every- thing below that line was economy, and everything above it was extravagance. What they were called upon to do—in this largely-increased national expenditure—was to see that the money was judiciously, economically, and wisely laid out. This the House, as it at present worked, could not do. If, however, there was a Committee appointed in the way suggested, it would certainly enable them to accomplish that end.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 64; Noes 46: Majority 18.—(Div. List, No. 251.)

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.