HC Deb 06 August 1878 vol 242 cc1406-22

SUPPLY—considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) £386,800, Charge for Commissariat, Transport, &c.

COLONEL ARBUTHNOT

took that opportunity of asking the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, whether he would undertake that the undoubted grievance of the Artificers in the Artillery should be removed? He would like to know whether it could, by any possibility, be removed in the present financial year? The Returns showed the great injustice to which the Artificers in the Royal Artillery were now subjected. The Artificers in the Royal Artillery could not draw more than 1s. l0d. a-day, whereas the Cavalry drew 3s. 7d., Royal Engineers 3s. 7d., and the Army Service Corps 4s. 9d. He was surprised that this inequality should have remained so long.

COLONEL STANLEY

observed., that there would be no opportunity this year of altering the matter. He would, at the same time, assure the hon. and gal- lant Member that the matter would have his very careful consideration.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, that the Secretary of State for War would find that a very great grievance would grow up in the Royal Artillery unless this injustice were remedied. Under the system of short enlistment, there would be a difficulty in obtaining Artificers for the Royal Artillery, if the inequality complained of was not removed.

Vote agreed to.

(2.) £3,185,000, Provisions, Forage, &c.

(3.) £806,000, Clothing Establishments, Services, and Supplies.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, the system of clothing garrison batteries of Artillery had been completely changed during the past year and a-half. These batteries were commanded by a major, and it was perfectly impossible for him to do the details of the clothing. This troublesome work had to be done by a sergeant, who was very fully employed. He got no extra pay whatever, a fact which was quite unusual in the Army. In every other branch, if a man had to do extra work—such as managing the clothing department—he always got extra pay. But in the case of garrison batteries the commandant, knowing that unless the sergeant got extra pay he would not do the work, paid him out of his own pocket 1s. or 9d. a-day extra. The system of managing the clothing department of field batteries was the same; but there the sergeant in charge was made a quarter-master sergeant, and had that position and pay. He, therefore, asked the Secretary of State for War, in the case of garrison batteries, to put the sergeant in charge of the clothing in a better position. By attending to this point, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would be looking into a serious grievance.

SIR HENRY HAVELOCK

complained that when the Reserve men were called out they had no second suits of uniform; and, after a long field day in the rain, the men had the alternative of going naked or stand about wet to the skin. He could not help thinking that this was false economy, and the deficiency in clothing required the most serious attention of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. Then, when the Reserve men were called out, they were supposed to bring their own boots, instead of being supplied by the Government. A Committee, on which he had the honour to serve some two years ago, went into the matter very closely, and recommended that a sufficient stock of boots should be kept in store to meet all requirements. The experiment of calling out the Reserves had been an important one, especially as showing the precise number of men England could put into the field at any time; and he thought in the future there should not be such mistakes found as had been discovered on this recent occasion. The Government ought always to be in a position to at once put two Army Corps into the field.

LORD EUSTACE CECIL

said, the subject had engaged the attention of the Secretary of State for War and himself, and Reports had been asked for, which were under consideration. The hon. and gallant Baronet would, no doubt, recollect that there was no store of reserve clothing until provision was made for it a year or two since by the late Secretary of State for War. All must admit that there had been a great strain upon the Departments recently; but he might safely say that had there been any necessity for a second Army Corps to take the field, one might have been equipped and ready in a month or six weeks.

SIR HENRY HAVELOCK

said, it seemed to him that the Government had only contemplated the equipment of one Army Corps. England could not send less than two Army Corps into the field simultaneously; and if ever any other idea was carried out, it would be found that a fatal mistake had been made. He should not regard any preparation as complete unless they contemplated such a proceeding.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

asked what was the result of the experiment made by the late Secretary of State for War of voting money to lay in a reserve stock of cloth? Had the War Office kept faith with the House, which specially voted £200,000 for this express purpose, and had the War Office laid in the stock of cloth which they spoke of, and kept up that reserve for extraordinary demands?

COLONEL ARBUTHNOT

did not for a moment believe that every Reserve man expected to find his kit complete when he was called up. The question now was one of the future, and he had no doubt many valuable suggestions had been made.

COLONEL STANLEY

said, in answer to his hon. and gallant Friend (Sir George Balfour) as to whether the stock of reserve clothing had been kept up, he must say unquestionably not. As to the complaint about a non-supply of a second suit of clothes, he admitted there was some grounds for that. But it must be remembered that it had only been contemplated that one Army Corps would have to be provided. At the present moment a Committee was sitting on the subject, and he hoped arrangements would be made which would lead to an improvement.

SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT

said, the boots supplied to the men of the Army were the cause of constant complaint. Nothing could be worse than to have bad boots. The Infantry could not march in them; and, of course, they were worth nothing if they could not march. There was no reason at all why good boots should not be supplied.

LORD ELCHO

said, there was another cause of complaint, and that was the kind of leggings served out to the Infantry.

LORD EUSTACE CECIL

said, the question of boots cropped up last year, and in consequence of complaints a thorough inquiry was made into the matter. Not only had he called for Reports on the subject, but he bought a pair of boots of the character supplied for himself, and he never wished to walk in any which were more easy or more comfortable. That certainly was his experience. If his hon. and gallant Friend (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) would give him particulars of any complaints, he would look into the matter. In the case of the leggings, he could give no information; but if the nature of the complaints were laid before him, there should be an inquiry into them.

MAJOR NOLAN

was bound to say, from his experience of the boots of the Artillery—and he had had a good opportunity of judging—they were excellent, and they were very much praised.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £1,330,000, Warlike Stores.

MR. WHITWELL

asked if the small arm manufactory was engaged in making Martini-Henry rifles only; and whether experiments had been made regarding the new military arms which were being used in other parts of the world?

LORD EUSTACE CECIL

said, at the present moment nothing but Martini-Henry rifles and carbines were being manufactured. The value of these weapons was proved in the late war, when the Turks, who were not celebrated for keeping their arms in good condition, made such an extraordinary use of them. Therefore, he thought the House and the country might he satisfied with the manufacture of those arms.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

said, the Martini-Henry rifle, if not the best, was one of the very best of weapons, and he saw no advantage to be derived from changing it.

LORD ELCHO

said, the recent results of shooting with the Martini-Henry had shown it to be the superior to any foreign weapon. He should like to hear from his noble Friend what was the number of those rifles in store—he meant not at present in the hands of the troops.

MR. WHITWELL

said, what he desired to know was, whether great advantages were likely to be derived from the use of the Martini-Henry rifle?

LORD EUSTACE CECIL

said, that a Departmental Committee was now sitting for the purpose of inquiring into this question. Respecting the inquiry of the hon. Member, he might state that 2,000 Martini-Henry rifles were this year issued for the use of Volunteers at Wimbledon. The gift had been received with a very good spirit, and had been much appreciated. He believed that some little difficulty had been experienced with regard to the sighting; but, at the same time, the Martini-Henry had acquitted itself as, in his opinion, it always would do—exceedingly well. With regard to the number of rifles in store, the reserve, in round numbers, was 400,000. There were also some 18,000 carbines in store. The question of carbines was discussed last year by the Committee, and the carbine now adopted was approved of by most Cavalry officers, and was considered by them as a good weapon for that branch of the Service.

LORD ELCHO

asked, whether his noble Friend had read the account of the discussion at the United Service Institution on this subject?

MAJOR NOLAN

hoped that the Government would provide some magazine-loaders; for, in the opinion of competent American officers, there was a tendency towards the greater use of those weapons. This Vote was for big guns. Some breech-loading Armstrongs were doing very well. He believed the Surveyor General of the Ordnance was in the wrong in some statements he had made; he had the authority of Sir William Armstrong to that effect. With respect to breech-loaders generally, he thought the country was hardly pushing its experiments as far as it ought. The War Office, he believed, had now only two descriptions of guns with which they were experimenting.

LORD EUSTACE CECIL

would assure his hon. and gallant Friend that the War Office was not shutting its eyes to what was going on in regard to the question of breech-loading ordnance. The War Office was aware that breechloaders might be very effective under certain circumstances; but whatever was done in the way of change must be done gradually. It was quite possible that more breech-loaders would be designed, and the hon. and gallant Member might rest assured that, if useful, they would be adopted. With regard to the alleged contradiction of the Surveyor General by Sir William Armstrong, he would not say one word against the statement of the hon. and gallant Member; but only repeat that what he (Lord Eustace Cecil) had stated was on very good authority.

SIR HENRY HAVELOCK

wished to make one or two observations on the very important points that had been touched upon. As respected the Martini-Henry, it might be taken that it was a rifle which, if not the very best that could be made, yet was as near perfection as it could well be in the present state of scientific knowledge. He had recently had an opportunity of seeing in use, by the Turks, a rifle very similar to the Martini-Henry—he meant the Martini-Peabody. Its results were so satisfactory that he was glad to think that the whole of the British Army was armed with a weapon almost identical. With respect to the Martini-Henry carbine, it differed from the rifle only in being shorter; but, with that difference, was altogether as good a weapon. Some mention had been made of magazine repeating rifles, which were not in use in the English Army. In some situations, as in the late war, during the defence of Plevna, a rifle from which some 16 or 18 shots could be fired without reloading, was found in those peculiar circumstances to be of great utility. Owing to the smallness of the British Army, it was certain that it would be nearly always upon the defensive, and the advantage from rifles of that sort should not be lost sight of. The question was a very important one, as to whether an Army occupied in field works should not be supplied with magazine repeating rifles. At the right time and place, no doubt very extraordinary results could be obtained from such rifles. In the experiments conducted at Shoeburyness, it had been shown that in field works suddenly thrown up such rifles would aid materially in holding them against attacks. He might say that he was greatly disappointed to see the very inferior performance of the Gatling gun at Shoeburyness. From what he observed, he supposed the defect was not so much in the gun as in the mode of loading it. He was sure that, under certain circumstances, the greatest possible advantage could be reaped from the proper use of the Gatling gun.

MR. WHITWELL

would like to know whether the Government was now in a position to manufacture all the torpedoes required for the use of the country, or whether, and to what extent, dependence was placed in their supply by outside manufacturers?

LORD EUSTACE CECIL

said, they had hitherto been able to supply all that were required. In a few years, he hoped that even in war time the Government would be able to manufacture all that were wanted.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £854,300, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Superintending Establishment of, and Expenditure for, Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at Home and Abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1879.

MR. E. JENKINS

wished to make an inquiry with, respect to the Vote for buildings in South Africa. They had received £9,000 from the Cape Government on this account. But there was a sum of £12,000 sanctioned by the Treasury for providing accommodation to the troops in Natal and the Transvaal. He would like to know whether there was any chance of that money being reimbursed out of the Colonial funds; and, further, whether Her Majesty's Government considered it good policy to continue to supply the Colonies with these buildings?

COLONEL STANLEY

said, it would be extremely inconvenient if the buildings were not supplied when necessary. The chief consideration was the safety of the Colony, and the Government could not always hold its hand with respect to expenditure of this character. Sometimes the Colony in which the works were executed paid its share; but he was not able to give a definite answer in the present case.

LORD ELCHO

thought one of the greatest dangers to the country in case of war would have arisen from the coaling stations being undefended. He would like to know whether any steps had been taken to protect the coaling stations?

COLONEL STANLEY

did not know whether he could give details on this subject, or, indeed, whether it would be advisable to publish such information. A Defence Committee, he might say, had been assembled, which considered very carefully the best measures to be taken for the safety of the coaling stations. At all the large coaling stations, earth batteries were improvised and armed. As a rule, they had been erected as temporary batteries only, but, with the aid of heavy guns, would be a very sufficient protection against iron-clad Fleets.

GENERAL SHUTE

moved the reduction of the Vote by the sum of £3,000, in respect of the construction of the new hospital for the two regiments of Household Cavalry at the Regent's Park Barracks. He felt somewhat strongly on this subject, although it was a small matter, and one of detail, that would hardly come under the consideration of his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War, yet its de- cision was one of serious importance to the three regiments of Household Cavalry. On this matter depended their efficient medical treatment, and he might almost say their death-rate; and he was satisfied that when he had stated the case all military men in. the House, and all hon. Members who took an interest in the medical treatment of soldiers, and all who were interested in sanitary science, would agree with him in objecting to this hospital. He must first explain to the Committee that, with a view to carrying out the new departmental system, the old regimental system for the medical treatment of troops had been gradually abolished. In towns where there were two, three, or more regiments quartered, measures had been gradually taken to concentrate the sick from each regiment into one hospital. No doubt there were objections to the plan; but he was aware that it had its advantages; that it was more applicable to service in the field; and that it would tend to improve the Army School of Surgery and Medicine, which had been at a somewhat low standard. But as regarded Cavalry on home service, there was no doubt that the regimental system was the best; as respected the Household Cavalry, in particular, he saw no sort of advantage in the adoption of the system of concentrating their sick in London in one hospital; for they had their own regimental surgeons and their assistant surgeons, and were to continue to be so organized, which was not the case with the Cavalry of the Line. He objected to the Vote for two reasons— first, he objected to the hospital for the reception of the sick from two regiments of Household Cavalry being placed in what he might call the worst possible and most unhealthy site; and, secondly, he objected to the distance—about three miles—that the sick and injured of the regiment quartered in Knightsbridge would have to be carried through the streets of London to reach the hospital. First, as to the sanitary part of the question, the new hospital was placed on the same site as the old hospital in the Regent's Park Barracks. It was close to the outer wall at one angle of the Barracks; immediately on one side there were some very objectionable, mews, not under military control, and which had been complained of by the medical officer of the regiment quartered there. But, infinitely worse, on another side, the hospital was within 20 or 25 yards of the notoriously objectionable Regent's Park Canal, a receptacle for dead dogs, cats, and all descriptions of filth. The last time that he saw the canal, there was over its surface that tell-tale scum peculiar to stagnant and putrid water. So near the wall of the proposed hospital was the canal, that it had been necessary to drive 30 piles to prevent the foundations of the hospital inclining gradually towards the canal. In one of the walls of the Barracks near the hospital there were some very large fissures, the result of the ground gradually giving way towards the canal, and a magazine, to be pulled down to make room for the new building, was quite out of the perpendicular from the same cause. But this was not the worst. The Canal Company had some land close by the hospital, and separated from it only by some railings, and on this it was proposed, at some future time, to form a " lay-by " for barges; and if that were done the wall of the hospital would be actually washed by the waters of the canal. The men in the Regent's Park Barracks had, as a rule, been more healthy than in the old Knightsbridge Barracks recently pulled down. The explanation of that was that the Regent's Park Barracks were comparatively new, and had been constructed on a better plan and without the defects of the old Knightsbridge Barracks, and because the men's quarters were as far from the canal as the barrack property would admit of. But there had always been a large proportion of deaths at Regent's Park, and that had been attributed to the extremely bad site of the hospital in which the sick men were lodged. He had visited the children's school, some time since, in those Barracks, which was close to the canal, and was shown articles which had become mildewed from having been kept only 10 days there. The officers' quarters being close to the canal, the moss stores of biscuits, and so on, soon became good for nothing, if not kept in tin boxes, from the extreme damp. He thought he had now shown the Committee pretty clearly that this was not a desirable place upon which to build a hospital for two regiments. He believed he was right in saying that, in the opinion of the commanding officers and surgeon majors of all the three regiments, the site of the hospital was very objectionable, and that they had officially stated their objections. He would add a little more with regard to Cavalry hospitals in particular. There was no doubt that Cavalry were much better off with hospitals of their own. He had had 80 or 90 four-year-olds being broke in by his own soldiers; and, of course, a great number of casualties must occur in head-quarters of Cavalry regiments. It was naturally to be expected that old soldiers breaking wild Irish four-year-olds, and young soldiers being taught to ride, would be occasionally liable to fractures and other serious injuries. He remembered once boasting that for months no such casualties had occurred in his regiment. The next morning one man was killed, and another had his leg fractured, and a third seriously injured. How would it be if all these men had had to be removed three miles to the hospital? The result of the departmental hospital system was shown by what was told him the other day by an officer in Dublin, where the system of the concentration of sick was being carried out. A case of fracture was removed three miles to the hospital to be treated. Owing to the removal, a simple became a compound fracture, and the man was likely to be lame for life, or, perhaps, lose his leg. He had this from the colonel of the Cavalry regiment in which the man was serving. He mentioned these matters with special regard to Cavalry hospitals. Although he did not object, as a rule, to the departmental system of hospitals for Infantry, still, nothing contributed so much to the bond between men and officers as the latter making it a practice to visit their sick men. The men, moreover, objected to being taken from their barracks, regarding the regiment as their home. In the case of the Household Regiments, if they had not their own hospitals, all casualties, however trivial, would have to be removed to the Regent's Park Barracks, through about three miles of streets. It might be argued that the same thing was being carried out at Berlin; but how was it being carried out? The authorities there had built a magnificent hospital, on part of the manœuvre ground —the most healthy site—and had laid down a line of railway from the various barracks to the hospital. The large roomy conveyances contained beds, hammocks, and every comfort and convenience, and the sick were conveyed to the hospital without being shaken or. injured. Carried out in that way, the policy of having a hospital away from a barrack was quite another affair. The only objection to building a hospital at Knightsbridge was one of space. But he believed that had been overcome, and that the hon. Member for East Gloucestershire (Mr. J. E. Yorke) received a positive promise that some houses between the Duke of Wellington's Riding School and Knight-bridge Barracks should be purchased; and, in that case, there would be ample room for hospital accommodation. A most influentially signed Petition had been sent to the Chief Commissioner of Works upon the subject; and he believed that if the right hon. Gentleman, in conjunction with the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works and the Secretary of State for War, would put their heads together, they could manage the alteration, making a great Metropolitan improvement, and give a handsome and commodious foot entrance into the Park. The present passage into Hyde Park was most objectionable. Two houses stood there, which were a great nuisance to the troops and the neighbourhood, and there were other houses, which he would not describe, in the same locality. It had been reported by one Engineer officer that the space to be thus acquired would not be sufficient, while another reported that it would be. He had visited the locality himself, and he unhesitatingly said there was room. What was still better, they would be able to have the hospital at the extreme west end of the Barrack-ground, if they wished it. Many people objected to Lave an hospital in their midst; but that for a regiment of 300 and odd fine healthy men was a different thing to an ordinary hospital. The average illness of the Barracks was from 9 to 12 men— that was about 3 per 100—so that too large a building need not be constructed. Then, another advantage would be derived, which was, it seemed, not thought of. At present, the Veterinary Surgeon's establishment was at one end of the Barracks, and the forge at another; whereas, if the ground in question was acquired, it would enable them to be associated, and this was a most im- portant arrangement, as the shoeing of a regiment should be closely superintended by the veterinary surgeon. In conclusion, he expressed a belief that he had shown that Knightsbridge Barracks wanted a hospital; that if the War Office chose, a site could be found for such a building; and he had also shown the importance of placing the veterinary establishment and the forge together. He hoped, therefore, that his right hon. and gallant Friend would give way, and give Knightsbridge Barracks a hospital, and also thereby effect a great Metropolitan improvement.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £851,300, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Superintending Establishment of, and Expenditure for, Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at Home and Abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1879."—(General Shute.)

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

thought it was perfectly absurd to have a hospital three miles away, especially when they remembered the numerous accidents which occurred in Cavalry regiments. It certainly could not conduce to the recovery of a man to convey him three miles over a rough road. There was another objection which had not been mentioned. Supposing a contagious disease broke out. It certainly would not be desirable to take a man infected with small-pox through the streets of London to a hospital. He should, therefore, support the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (General Shute) if he went to a division.

COLONEL STANLEY

hoped his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brighton would not put the Committee to the inconvenience of dividing upon the question, which was no new one. It had been the cause of repeated discussions in the House; plans and estimates had been ordered, from time to time, and approved; but it had never been thought desirable to erect the hospital. There was a hospital at Regent's Park sufficient for all purposes; whereas, if they built another at Knightsbridge, they would not only have two buildings near each other, but have to acquire the second at a cost of £25,000, independent of the cost of maintaining the two establishments. As to moving the men in waggons to the hospital, he might say the conveyances were admirably contrived for the purpose; and all the best surgeons, he believed, would prefer treating cases in a good hospital, where all the means and appliances for so doing existed, than dealing with them on the spot. He had endeavoured to find out the average number of casualties in a Cavalry regiment, and he believed a regiment 300 strong had an average of nine men sick per 100. That certainly was not a very serious number; and he believed the Committee would pause before they involved the country in an expenditure of £30,000 or £40,000 next year, in addition to the Supplementary Estimates of the Government.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

hoped the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (General Shute) would not divide the Committee, as he was sure to be beaten. He was sure, after the remarks which had been made, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War would further consider the matter.

Question put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(6.) £162,400, Military Education.

(7.) £33,300, Miscellaneous Effective Services.

MR. E. JENKINS

asked to be informed as to the number of military attachés, and where they were engaged?

COLONEL STANLEY

said, there were military attachés employed at Paris, Vienna, Berlin, St. Petersburgh, and Constantinople. During the late war other officers had been doing similar duties, but only for the time.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

desired to know if any Reports of the slightest value had ever been received from the military attachés, and whether they were of any use, either to the "War Office or to the public?

COLONEL STANLEY

said, the War Office received Reports of the greatest value from the military attachés.

Vote agreed to.

(8.) £251,500, Administration of Army.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

said, year by year there was an increased charge for the Intelligence Department; whereas the information which that Department publicly rendered was of no value, because none was made public. They could give no information as to Cyprus when it was annexed; and, therefore, he asked what was the use of such a costly Office?

COLONEL STANLEY

said, since Viscount Cardwell had instituted the Intelligence Department, it had done all the work it was intended to execute, and had proved itself very useful. To his knowledge the Department had done very excellent work, and it furnished information not only to the War Office but to other Departments of the State if they needed it. It was impossible in a few years to obtain all the information which the Government would like; but still, much had been done, and he was sure the Office would prove of great value to the country.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

complained that the salaries of all the military clerks in the War Office had been reduced by £450, while those of the officers in that Department had been increased to the same extent. This was a mean thing. If officers ought to have more pay, let them have it; but surely they should not be rewarded at the expense of the subordinates? He detested such conduct; and he hoped the present Secretary of State would put an end to such a state of things.

COLONEL STANLEY

did not think the observations of the hon. and gallant Member were correct; and, therefore, he could not answer him.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

said, the decrease in the clerks' salaries was apparent, as was also the increase in those of the officers. He regretted to see the Secretary of State lending himself to such an arrangement. ["Oh, oh!" "Divide!"] If he heard those remarks again, he would move to report Progress. One Member of that House had been dealt with that night for interfering with a speaker, and why should he (Sir George Balfour) be interrupted? It was discreditable to the Party which had turned out the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major O'Gorman)—["Order, order!"]—now to try to interrupt him. ["Order, order!"] It was all very well to call out "Order!" but ]. Members had no right to interfere with him, and he would not have it. He supported the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he very rightly moved a Resolution affecting the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major O'Gorman) for interruptions; and that being so, it was only right that he should he protected. He must again add that he thought it was unfair to reduce the clerks' salaries for the advantage of the officers; and hence he asked the Secretary of State for War to look into the matter as soon as possible.

Vote agreed to.

(9.) £33,300, Rewards for Distinguished Services.

(10.) £92,000, Pay of General Officers.

(11.) £870,300, Retired Full Pay, Half Pay, &c.

(12.) £121,000, Widows' Pensions, &c.

(13.) £16,900, Pensions for Wounds.

(14.) £35,600, Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals (In-Pensions).

(15.) £1,025,000, Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals (Out-Pensions).

(16.) £164,600, Superannuation Allowances.

(17.) £40,200, Militia, Yeomanry Cavalry, Volunteer Corps.

(18.) £1,080,000, in aid of Army Estimates for Home Charges for Regular Forces in India.

MAJOR NOLAN

asked where the Vote was to be found in the Estimates?

COLONEL STANLEY

said, it would be found on page 31 of the Estimates; it was for the sum voted in aid of the Home Charges for the Regular Forces serving in India. It was voted for the first time last year, according to the Forms of the House, in aid of the Indian charges. The Vote was a mere form, because the Indian Government met the charges; but, owing to an arrangement between the India Office and the Treasury—but which would come to an end next year—it had been found necessary to include the charges in the Army Estimates.

MR. CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN

presumed that the arrangement as to the alteration would not come before the House next Session. He would, therefore, take that opportunity of asking whether, if the matter were discussed next Session, it would not be absolutely necessary to have the documents before them?

COLONEL STANLEY

promised to look into the matter, in order to see what should be produced.

MR. CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN

said, that as the matter then stood, they had the information before them in the shape of a Treasury Minute, in which 12 or 13 different documents were referred to. The matter could not be understood unless they were produced.

COLONEL STANLEY

could not promise to lay those documents on the Table; but they were open to the inspection of hon. Members at the War Office.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

observed, that there was nothing to conceal in the accounts, for his hon. Friend who was Chairman of the Accounts Committee had offered to show them to him.

MR. WHITWELL

thought that the object of this Vote was something entirely different from the Army Estimates, and objected to its being taken at that time.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, there was nothing to prevent this Vote being taken amongst the Army Estimates. It was perfectly in Order to propose the Vote at that time.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

observed, that the money for this purpose was formerly voted in the Army Estimates, and if there was no irregularity in the Motion, he saw no reason why the Vote should not be taken in the old way, instead of in the exceptional mode now followed.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

said, the Motion might be technically regular; but his impression was that last year it was put down on the Paper as a separate Motion, and was not placed with the Army Estimates.

COLONEL STANLEY

said, that he had already pointed out that the Vote was a mere form, and that it was included in the Army Estimates only as a transfer. With that explanation, as the Chairman had ruled that it was in Order, he trusted the Committee would pass the Vote.

MR. WHITWELL

remarked, that whatever his own opinion might be, after the ruling of the Chairman, he withdrew his objection to the Vote.

Vote agreed to.