HC Deb 01 May 1877 vol 234 cc183-204
VISCOUNT SANDON

moved that the Select Committee on Cattle Plague and Importation of Live Stock do consist of Twenty-three Members.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

moved that the number of Members be increased to 27. He did so for this reason. The original constitution of the Committee had met with reprobation from many quarters of the House. There were altogether 10,000,000 of horned beasts in the United Kingdom. Ireland and Scotland had 4,000,000, that was two-fifths of the whole, and yet of the 23 Members proposed only two were Irish Members. Again, the selection of these two Members was a most extraordinary one, having been made without any consultation with what was called the Irish Party in the House, although on this question he was willing to acknowledge there ought to be no difference of Party. They were all equally interested, whether Home Rulers, Liberals sitting under the Gangway, or Conservatives; and of the two Members selected neither was a county Member, although it was well known that the wealth of Ireland chiefly consisted in its cattle. The hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. Butt) wished to put in three additional Members, leaving one for the Government to choose. He had risen in the absence of his hon. and learned Friend—whom he now observed in his seat—and he would propose the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. King-Harman), who was a very large proprietor in Ireland, and also farmed 2,500 acres; of the hon. Member for Cavan County (Mr. Biggar), who had a large experience in trade, and was practically acquainted with many cognate questions. He did not think any Cattle Committee would be complete, from an Irish point of view, which did not include a representative from Ballinasloe, where a most important fair was held, and although situated in his own county of Galway it was closely adjoining Roscommon. He was therefore glad to see that the hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. French) was moved as one of the three additional Members.

MR. BUTT

seconded the Amendment, pointing out that there was no part of the United Kingdom more deeply interested in this question than Ireland, and submitting that it was not unreasonable to ask that the agricultural districts of Ireland should be represented. Speaking in conformity to the wishes of a meeting which had been held, he would suggest as additional Members of the Committee the three hon. Gentlemen named by his hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Nolan).

Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "Twenty-three," in order to insert the words "Twenty-seven,"—(Captain Nolan,)—instead thereof.

VISCOUNT SANDON

confessed at once, on the part of the Government, that the Committee would be stronger if it had more representatives of Ireland, which, undoubtedly, had a very deep interest in the question. Government were willing that there should be four more Members appointed, and that three of these should be Irish Members. In the meantime, the House might decide, in accordance with the suggestion in the Amendment, that the total number should be 27, and the particular Members to be appointed could afterwards be considered.

MR. STORER

observed that the names of hon. Members connected with the English counties and tenant-farmers were conspicuous by their absence. It should be remembered that although consumers had the first interest in this matter, it had been very much abated by the large importations of American meat. The farmers were the parties chiefly interested. It was their herds that suffered, and they had to pay the tax for compensation in a great proportion, as it came out of the county rate to which they were the chief contributors.

MR. CALLAN

urged that the Committee should consist of 29 Members, and that the hon. Members for South Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read) and Forfar (Mr. J. W. Barclay) should be added.

SIR W. HART DYKE

felt himself mainly responsible for the names on the Committee, and when it was stated that tenant-farmers were conspicuous by their absence, he was bound to add that the first hon. Member to whom he applied to be a Member of the Committee was the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read), who refused to serve.

MR. MARK STEWART

said, he had gathered from what had been said that three out of the four additional names were to be those of Irish Members. He felt rather disappointed, because Scotland was deserving of consideration as being an integral part of the United Kingdom. [Laughter.] He would explain the matter a little more fully. No cattle were allowed to be imported into Ireland, whereas Scotland was subjected to the importation of cattle from foreign ports all over the world, and cattle disease and the plague were brought over in that way. It was therefore important that Scotland should be considered in this matter, and he thought it right she should have an additional Member. There was a great amount of interest felt in Scotland in this matter. It was spoken of throughout the whole country, and if this was the only reason, Scotland ought, in his opinion, to be more fully represented than it was. It was a question in which, no doubt, the Government took all the precautions that could be possibly taken to stop this contagious plague from disseminating among cattle throughout the country, but those means were inadequate and insufficient for the purpose. It was therefore with great satisfaction that he found they were able to meet together in that House in order to appoint a Select Committee. As hon. Members very well knew, he had a Motion on the Paper on this subject, and probably if he had persevered with that Motion, this Select Committee could not have been discussed, much less appointed; but he was willing to waive that Motion in order that this Committee should be appointed, because he knew it would have been a sort of dog-in-the-manger policy to have obstructed the formation of the Committee. He was therefore inclined to support the Committee, in the hope that if carried through it would tend to stop the cattle plague.

Question, "That the words 'Twenty-three' stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.

Words "Twenty-seven" inserted.

Main Question, as amended, put.

Ordered, That the Committee do consist of Twenty-seven Members.

VISCOUNT SANDON

moved "That Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson be one other Member of the Committee."

MR. PARNELL

inquired what four names the Government intended to propose in addition to those on the Paper?

CAPTAIN NOLAN

asked whether they would accept the three names which he understood the hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. Butt) had to propose?

Motion agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDON

moved "That Mr. W. E. Forster be one other Member of the Committee."

Motion agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Chaplin be one other Member of the Committee."

MR. PARNELL

repeated the request that the Government would declare their intentions, and to enable the noble Lord to do so, he moved the omission of the name of the hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin).

Amendment proposed, to leave out the name of Mr. Chaplin, in order to insert the name of Mr. Clare Read. — (Mr. Callan,)—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the name of Mr. Chaplin stand part of the Question."

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, it was usual to propose one name at a time. As soon as those names proposed by the Government were accepted, it would be perfectly competent for the hon. and learned Member for Limerick to move the addition of any of the names in his Notice. But no name could be proposed without Notice.

MR. BUTT

admitted that was the usual course. But the noble Lord (Viscount Sandon) had engaged to accept three other names. Was it unfair to ask him what those names were?

MR. CALLAN

said, though he did not wish to offer any objection to the hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire, he would vote under the circumstances that the name of the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read) be substituted.

MR. W. JOHNSTON

supported the nomination of the hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin).

MR. KNATCHBULL - HUGESSEN

said, it would be impossible for him to vote against the hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire, because he was eminently qualified to serve; but he could not understand why the Government would not say who were the three Irish Members they intended to propose.

MR. W. H. SMITH

explained that the hon. Member for South Norfolk had refused to serve, though the Government were exceedingly anxious that he should.

MR. CALLAN

said, the hon. Member's objection was to the terms of Reference, and not to serving on the Committee if those terms were altered.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

said, that the best course would be for the Irish Party to allow the 23 first-named of the Committee to be nominated, and then to divide if necessary on three additional Irish Members which it was proposed to appoint. At the same time, he denied that the present mode according to which Select Committees were chosen by the Whips on each side was satisfactory. When there was a large independent Party in the House they ought to be consulted. The Irish Members were not anxious to break the Rules of the House more than they could possibly help. [Laughter.] He meant they were not anxious to strain the Rules of the House.

SIR W. HART DYKE

said, it was well known for many years that the system on which these Committees were presented to the House was not one that was represented as absolutely perfect, but as conducive to the convenience of the House. The system might be good or it might not; but, as far as he was himself concerned, it was a very uncomfortable one. It was impossible to cast a ray of satisfaction on the path of one hon. Member without embittering and destroying the political aspirations of another. The Home Secretary was asked whether Her Majesty's Government were prepared at once to announce all these names. His right hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan (Mr. Adam) knew how they had been harassed about this list of names. That very fact would show that if the right hon. Gentleman rose at once and said he was ready to give the four names he would be in this difficulty—that hon. Members might have risen and said it was impossible that those names could be accepted. In conversation with his right hon. Friend and with his noble Friend (Viscount Sandon) the Amendments which had stood for days on the Paper had been discussed, and they came to the conclusion that if the House wished that three Members representing Irish constituencies should be added, those three Members should be the hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. French), the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. King-Harman), and the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. A. Moore). Those three names were included in the various Amendments on the Paper.

MR. ADAM

quite agreed with what had fallen from his hon. Friend. No one knew better than his hon. Friend and himself the difficulty of forming these Committees, and the amount of badgering they received proved to him that it was impossible to get what would be admitted to be a fair Committee, because everybody seemed ready to raise objections. No doubt there was a good deal to be said for the claim of Ireland to have some Irish Members on the Committee, and ho quite agreed that two sitting on that side and one on the other side—namely, the hon. Members for Roscommon and Clonmel (Mr. French and Mr. A. Moore) and the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. King-Harman)—should be appointed. Their names were already on the Paper, and therefore no further Notice would be required.

MAJOR O'GORMAN

said, he should vote against every name on the Committee unless their men were put on. It was all very well for the Government to ask them to agree to the first 23 names and then say that they could divide on the 24th. They would go to a division on every name.

MR. BENETT-STANFORD

remarked that there was certainly a desire on both sides of the House that the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read) should sit on the Committee.

MR. CHAMBERLAIN

said, that he thought the Government had gracefully conceded the point that three more Irish Members should be placed on the Committee. It was now admitted that there was a third Party in the House; and he hoped that the Government would further act gracefully by acceding to the names mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Captain Nolan).

MR. P. W. MARTIN

said, that in a very late conversation with the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read) he said that nothing on earth should induce him to serve upon the Committee. As to the remarks of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain), who said that the Government had gracefully conceded the point and allowed three more names to be added to the Committee, he might say that the Government had no power to interfere with the rights of the House, and he should object to the names of the Irish Members who had been referred to.

MR. BUTT

said, he would have voted for the hon. Member for South Norfolk if it had been certain that he would serve, but it had been distinctly stated that he would not. It had been said that his objection was not to serve on the Committee, but to the terms of the Reference; but unless he withdrew his objection to the terms of the Reference he (Mr. Butt) could not vote for him in any case. He must express his extreme regret at the course taken by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Clackmannan (Mr. Adam), in suggesting that the name of the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. A. Moore) should be substituted for that of the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar), a suggestion which could only tend to widen the breach which already existed between different sections of the House.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

reminded the House that the question was whether the hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin) should or should not sit on the Committee. The name of the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) might be left out of the discussion till he was proposed. He regretted the increased numbers of the Committee. The plain truth was that 27 was too many, and there would be increased difficulty attending the examination of witnesses. It was not the case that the Committees were chosen by the front benches. The right of choice was with the House, but some one must needs nominate. For himself he would be willing that his own name should be withdrawn, and that he should be allowed to offer his services as a witness instead of as a Member of the Committee. With reference to the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read) that Gentleman had distinctly told him that nothing would induce him to serve. But the hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire was also a Gentleman who would prove a good Member of Committee, and he hoped he would be elected.

MR. COURTNEY

said, that he was sorry that the House appeared to be on the eve of a prolonged wrangle. The increase of the numbers of the Committee which had just been deprecated was a foregone conclusion, and had been conceded by Government. The hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. Butt) said that the Irish Members had met together and had selected three Members whom they desired to represent the whole body—namely, the hon. Members for Sligo (Mr. King-Harman), Cavan (Mr. Biggar), and Roscommon (Mr. French). Two of these Members had been accepted; but in the place of the hon. Member for Cavan the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. A. Moore) had been proposed. He confessed that he regarded this as a most unfortunate proposal, and he could hardly express the sorrow with which he had heard the remarks of the hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. P. W. Martin). Anything which tended to increase the breach between any Party in the House and the great body of hon. Members was, in his judgment, to be much regretted. Even if it were true, which he did not allow, that they had to deal with an unreasonable person, they ought not to combat that person in an equally unreasonable way. Several times he had had to regret the manner in which it had been proposed to meet such conduct. He rose for the purpose of appealing to the reasonableness of the hon. Member for Cavan, and he would ask him to get up in his place and decline to servo upon the Committee. He knew this was a great request to make; but a mistaken prejudice which had been created must be banished by such action on the part of the hon. Member for Cavan. ["Question!"] He maintained that he was speaking strictly to the question. If the hon. Member for Cavan would decline to serve, he would be doing a very great thing for the Party of which he was a Member.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

agreed that a Committee with so large a number of Members would be very heavy and unworkable. With regard to the suggestion which had been made to the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) he should offer no advice. He thought that, being engaged in a trade which was intimately connected with the subject with which the Committee would have to deal, the hon. Gentleman would prove a decided acquisition to that body. Although that hon. Member had been represented as obstructing the progress of Public Business, and although he might have done so on some occasions, he did not think any person who had heard him speak in the House could recall a single occasion on which he had been as offensive to any Member of the House as the Representative of Rochester (Mr. P. W. Martin) had been that evening. A great deal had been said about the dignity of the House. Hon. Members stood up heated in argument, and, excited perhaps by the interruptions of their opponents, used language which might not be pleasant, but which was excusable because it was uttered in hot blood. The hon. Member for Rochester, however, got up in cold blood and made a directly personal attack upon another hon. Member. ["Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

thought the hon. Member was travelling beyond the Question before the House.

MR. CALLAN

asserted, with reference to the question as between the hon. Member for South Norfolk and the hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire, that at a late hour on the previous night the former had not withdrawn his name, and that, while objecting to the terms of the Reference, he was ready under the peculiar circumstances to act.

MR. BENTINCK

thought the House generally must regret that a discussion of this kind should have taken the turn of a personal debate. For his own part, he declined to go into the personal question. As for the subject actually before the House, he regretted that the Motion of the hon. Member for the Wigtown Burghs (Mr. Mark Stewart) had not come on, because he regretted the appointment of the Committee altogether. He should vote for the appointment of the hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin).

COLONEL PARKER

desired to express on behalf of the agriculturists of the country their earnest wish that the name of the hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire should be retained on the Committee.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

believed there could be no doubt that his hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read) had been repeatedly asked to serve on this Committee, and had expressed his unwillingness to do so. On the other hand, there could be no doubt that there existed in the House a strong feeling that it was desirable that his hon. Friend should take part in the deliberations of the Committee. The House had agreed that the Committee should consist of 27 Members. There were at present only 23 names on the list, and hon. Gentlemen from Ireland had indicated that they would propose three other names, thus only bringing up the number to 26, and leaving one name still to be supplied. He would therefore suggest they should nominate the hon. Member for South Norfolk as a Member of the Committee. If his hon. Friend, who was not now present, should afterwards decline to serve, and wished to be removed, that would be a matter for subsequent consideration.

MR. CALLAN

said, that after the remarks of the Chancellor of the Exchequer he would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. PARNELL

said, that the concession of the right hon. Gentleman only affected a portion of the case, and did not remove further objections to the constitution of the Committee.

Question put, "That Mr. Chaplin be one other Member of the Committee."

The House divided:—Ayes 156; Noes 23: Majority 133.—(Div. List, No. 104.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Jacob Bright be one other Member of the Committee,"

MR. ADAM

expressed his regret that the hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. Butt) should have found fault with the course which he had taken in proposing the substitution of the name of the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. A. Moore) instead of that of the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar). He had not the slightest objection to see the latter hon. Gentleman sitting on the Committee; and he had suggested the name of the hon. Member for Clonmel because he had found it set down twice among the names proposed, while that of the hon. Member for Cavan was set down only once.

MR. BUTT

said, he hoped they might now come to a termination of this discussion in which he had been exceedingly unwilling to take part. It did no credit to either side of the House, and, he thought, did not tend to add to its dignity. The three hon. Gentlemen's names which had been suggested by the Irish Party had been unanimously elected at a very full meeting of the Party, and the name of the hon. Member for Cavan was chosen, with the others, by that meeting, which included many who did not sympathize with a great deal which the hon. Member for Cavan did. That hon. Gentleman might be right in the course he pursued, or he might be wrong. He would not stay to discuss it, but was it right to ostracize any Member of the House? If they thought the hon. Member for Cavan displayed any surplus energy, let them put him on a Committee and give him something to do. Do not make an outlaw or a martyr of him, for that would only tend to magnify him. It seemed to him that an attempt had been made to gratify petty spite in this matter. If they thought the hon. Member for Cavan had done wrong, let them arraign him before the House and censure him for it. But he appealed to the House not to reject his name because of his unpopularity.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he thought the hon, and learned Gentleman's notion of what constituted a martyr must be a somewhat curious one, if he was under the impression that the word was applicable to the case of an hon. Member because he was not about to be appointed to serve on a Committee. The real question before the House, however, was the appointment as a Member of the Committee of his hon. Friend the Member for Manchester (Mr. Jacob Bright). He did not understand the "ostracizing" of any hon. Member. If a Gentleman was elected by a constituency to sit in that House he was competent to serve on a Committee, and he was informed that the hon. Member for Cavan had a good deal of practical acquaintance with the subject which the proposed Committee would have to consider. That practical knowledge which the hon. Member for Cavan possessed would no doubt be of service on the Committee; and the hon. Member's name therefore might very fairly be proposed and considered as soon as the names now before the House were disposed of.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Wilbraham Egerton be one other Member of the Committee."

MR. PARNELL

remarked that he was very sorry to have heard observations made on the occupation of the hon. Member for Cavan. It was true that the hon. Member for Cavan was in business; but he wished they had more such hon. Members, and Ireland would then be in a much better position.

MR. BENETT-STANFORD

rose to Order, and asked whether the hon. Member for Meath was in Order in alluding to the name of the hon. Member for Cavan?

CAPTAIN NOLAN

was about to speak, when—

MR. SPEAKER

said, he could only decide one point of Order at once. The name of the hon. Member for Cavan would come on for consideration by-and-by. At present the Question before the House was, whether Mr. Wilbraham Egerton should be added to the Committee.

MR. PARNELL

would not refer further to the name of the hon. Member for Cavan, but certainly the question of occupation had been introduced. ["No, no!"] The miserable question of personal conditions had been introduced by an hon. Member who ought to have known better. ["Order, order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

again reminded the hon. Member that the Question before the House was whether the name of Mr. Wilbraham Egerton should be added.

MR. BUTT

suggested to his hon. Friend that, after the conciliatory disposition which had been shown on both sides, they might trust to the good sense of the House and not object to the name now before them.

MR. CALLAN

thought that if the Government would state that they accepted the nomination of the hon. Member for Cavan all opposition would cease.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

objected to his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland giving any such undertaking at present. All the Government desired was, that the Committee should be nominated in a regular, business-like way. They had no prejudice at all in the matter, and nothing was further from their thoughts than to speak lightly of any hon. Member's occupation. They had paid the most sincere respect to all the Members of the House, and certainly it would be their very last idea to make an objection to anyone on account of his occupation; but it was a most irregular course to bring up the name of another Member when a name was submitted to the House to vote upon. The name of the hon. Member for Cavan would be duly considered by-and-by.

MR. J. COWEN

said, every name ought to be judged on its merits, and if the hon. Member for Cavan was guilty of any offence let him be punished. This dispute, he thought, had arisen because of a feeling in the mind of the Irish Members that the hon. Member for Cavan was, being struck at. If it were shown that that was not intended, the opposition would cease.

LORD ESLINGTON

thought no one would object to the name of the hon. Member for Mid-Cheshire (Mr. W. Egerton). He conceded that the hon. Member for Cavan was well qualified to be a Member of the Committee. He protested against any one entertaining the feeling that any hon. Member was ostracized. It was most desirable that Ireland should be represented on the Committee, and for this special reason—that the cattle disease had been kept out of Ireland. The law appeared to have been better carried out there than in England, and it was most desirable to place experienced Members from Ireland on the Committee. If the hon. Member for Cavan had rendered himself some-what unpopular, that ought not to prevent him from being nominated. He had been proposed by Irish Members, he had their confidence, and he (Lord Eslington) hoped the House would accept the name.

MR. PAGET

protested against its being supposed that the House were bound to appoint as a Member of the Committee an hon. Member who had been selected by Members who called themselves "The Irish Members." It was an attempt to dictate to the House, which he hoped they would be slow to recognize.

MAJOR O'GORMAN

The hon. Member who has just spoken may be perfectly easy in his mind. We object to the name of the hon. Member for Cheshire—that is all.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

said, that one side of the House was, as the hon. Member said, dictating to the other as to the composition of the Committee. He wished to tell the Government that there was a peculiar unfairness in putting the name of the hon. Member for Clonmel before that of the hon. Member for Cavan.

MR. SPEAKER

wished to point out to the House that the Question before it was the name of Mr. Wilbraham Egerton. When all the names originally proposed were nominated, the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Butt) would be called upon to make his Motion, and the House could then discuss the nomination of the three Members mentioned in it.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

said, he hoped that the hon. Member for Cheshire would be nominated to serve on the Committee. But in present circumstances he did not consider him so fit a man as his hon. Friend the Member for Cavan.

MR. SPEAKER

would again remind the hon. and gallant Member that the name of the hon. Member for Cavan would be more properly brought forward when it was proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Limerick.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That Colonel Kingscote be one other Member of the Committee."

MR. BUTT

moved—"That the name of Mr. Biggar be substituted for that of Colonel Kingscote." He hoped the House would excuse him for trying to say a few words, not in the way of opposition to the name of Colonel Kings-cote, but to show their feeling in desiring to have Mr. Biggar on the Committee. In the early part of the evening they expressed a desire to have Mr. Biggar on the Committee, and the Government sent them a communication that they objected to that and another name, and they suggested the name of the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. A. Moore). The Irish Members, however, wished to have Mr. Biggar on the Committee. He appealed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that when the name of the hon. Member came forward the Government would not offer any opposition. If he gave such an assurance, he believed there would not be another word of opposition from the Irish Members. It was hardly necessary to say that he did not intend to persist in his Motion.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. ADAM

said, he had no objection to the name of the hon. Member for Cavan being added to the Committee; but he did not think the hon. and learned Member for Limerick was treating the hon. Member for Cavan fairly by running him against the hon. Member for West Gloucestershire (Colonel Kingscote).

MR. BRUEN

did not feel himself committed by the resolution of a so-called Irish Representative meeting, at which the Irish names to be proposed on the Committee were agreed upon. No Irish Conservative Members had been summoned to it.

MR. SULLIVAN

explained how the meeting was convened and composed, and stated that Irish Conservative Members were intended to be present at it. If the Government were going to avenge upon the hon. Member for Cavan any fault which he might have committed, they had better say so at once.

MR. SPEAKER

pointed out that the name of the hon. Member for Cavan was not before the House.

THE O'CONOR DON

expressed a hope that the House would terminate the unseemly wrangle in which they had been engaged. If the Government would say they would not oppose the nomination of the hon. Member for Cavan the matter would be at an end.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that it would be impossible for the Government to give such a pledge as that asked for by the hon. Member who had just sat down.

MR. KNATCHBULL - HUGESSEN

pointed out that in order to satisfy certain English Members, the Government had already promised to propose the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read) as one of the four new Members to be added to the 23 whose names stood on the Paper. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, therefore, was somewhat inconsistent when he said that Government could not agree to the name of any other Member until the 23 had been appointed. He (Mr. Knatchbull-Hugessen) had waited all the evening in order to vote for the three Irish Members whom the hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. Butt) had proposed; but as hon. Members from Ireland persisted in opposing names to which no one objected, and thus causing unnecessary delay, he should think of his own constitution rather than of the constitution of the Committee, and remain no longer.

MR. PARNELL

said, he intended to propose an Amendment. The hon. Member for Clonmel, as high sheriff of his county, would not be able to attend on the Committee. There was at present no cattle plague in Ireland; but if it should break out there, the farmers of Ireland would be ruined. It was the duty of Irish Members to insist on being properly represented on the Committee, and they had met and determined on three names—the only real reason assigned for rejecting the name of the hon. Member for Cavan, who was one of the three, being the miserable prejudice that had been avowed by an hon. Member opposite.

MR. SPEAKER

said, the hon. Member had not been speaking to the Question at all.

MR. PARNELL

said he would not propose, as he intended, the nomination of the hon. Member for Cavan.

MR. SPEAKER

said, the hon. Member announced at the commencement of his speech that he would move an Amendment. If he had done so his speech would have been in Order; but as he had not concluded with doing so he must inform he hon. Gentleman that his whole speech had been out of Order.

MR. PARNELL

said, that he was sorry that any misunderstanding should have arisen. He therefore begged to move the substitution of Mr. Biggar's name for that of Colonel Kingscote.

SIR HARCOURT JOHNSTONE

seconded the Amendment. It was better that a Vote should be taken than that the Amendment should be withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the name of Colonel Kingscote, in order to insert the name of Mr. Biggar,"—(Mr. Parnell,)—instead thereof.

MR. BUTT

hoped that the Amendment of the hon. Member for Meath would not be pressed. He complained of hon. Members below the Gangway opposite setting an exceedingly bad example, remarking with reference to certain noises from the opposite benches in that quarter that he could conceive nothing more inconsistent in any man who felt the dignity of the House and the responsibility of a Member of Parliament than to sit silent, excepting when he sought to disturb others who were speaking. He would suggest that all the remaining names on the list should be accepted by the Irish Members, and then a vote should be taken as to the name of the hon. Member for Cavan, in respect to which he would rely on the good feeling of the House.

MR. P. W. MARTIN,

having been alluded to, wished to explain. When the hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. Butt) asked the Government to accept his names en bloc, he (Mr. W. Martin) said it was not in the power of the Government to do that. When he said he had a personal objection to the hon. Member for Cavan, that was not exactly the idea he wished to convey to the House, although for a reason which he would give, he had individually an objection to the hon. Member serving on the Committee. Some time ago, a Bill in which he (Mr. Martin) took an interest, was unanimously read a second time and passed through Committee, and the hon. Member, although in his hearing he said he had only read that Bill a few minutes before, suddenly made it an opposed Order. That showed that if elected he might possibly take a course which would bring the whole of the important business of the Committee to a standstill. He had occasionally spoken to the hon. Member, and he had no personal objection to him whatever; but he preferred the hon. Member for Kildare.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

was sorry that that Amendment had been moved, and hoped it would be withdrawn. If the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) wished to see the hon. Member for Cavan placed on the Committee, he was taking the course to render that impossible by running his name against that of the hon. Member for West Gloucestershire.

MR. SPEAKER

pointed out, that if the House declined to substitute Mr. Biggar's name for that of Colonel Kings-cote, it would still be open to any hon. Member to propose the addition of the hon. Member for Cavan to the Committee.

MR. BIGGAR

wished to make a personal explanation with reference to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. W. Martin). The fact was that he thoroughly approved of the Bill to which the hon. Member had alluded, but he wished to have a clause inserted, and that was his reason for making it an opposed Order. It was perfectly true that he had read the Bill only a few minutes before; but it was short, and he had thoroughly comprehended all the points.

MR. O'SULLIVAN

said, his only objection to the hon. Member for West Gloucestershire (Colonel Kingscote) was that unless Irish names were added to the Committee, the Irish Members would oppose every name. He appealed to the hon. Member for Meath to withdraw his Amendment.

MR. P. A. TAYLOR

observed that he did not blame the Government for acting as they had done, as they could not manage the Party behind them, There had been several occasions within the last week or two on which the Government had expressed their intention of taking a certain course and then left the House, whereupon their followers took a different course. Hon. Members opposite wished 23 nominations to the Committee to be accepted before the hon. Member for Cavan's name was submitted to them. That name would then be objected to. If the Government would give their assurance that they would do their best to secure a vote on the hon. Member's name without prejudice when it was reached, no doubt hon. Members from Ireland would not oppose the other names. If such a pledge were not given, Irish Members would be justified in opposing every nomination.

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN

hoped that the Amendment would be withdrawn, as it presented a false issue to the House.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, it was clearly understood that the Amendment was made not with any view of objection to the name of the hon. Member for West Gloucestershire (Colonel Kingscote), but with the intention of bringing on a discussion on the question whether the hon. Member fur Cavan should be appointed or not on the Committee. The hon. Member for Meath had made this Motion, not with any view of pressing it, but to put himself in Order; and therefore he suggested that the House should allow the Amendment to be withdrawn, and that the other names should be agreed to; and after that, when they came to the appointment of the four additional Members, the discussion might be taken. He thought that course would save time.

MR. SULLIVAN

asked what corresponding advantage the Irish Members would obtain if they accepted the offer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

MR. MARK STEWART

would vote for the hon. Member of Cavan when the proper time came; but he protested against the course of placing his name against that of every other Member proposed.

THE EARL OF DALKEITH

hoped the appointment of a Committee would be proceeded with, and that hon. Members for Ireland would not offer any further opposition. He would remind them that Scotland had a right to be represented, but Scotch Members were too modest to come forward.

MR. R. W. DUFF

complained that more Scotch Representatives had not been placed on the Committee.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

said, two Members to represent Scotland was a totally inadequate number.

Question, "That the name of Colonel Kingscote stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

Colonel Kingscote nominated one other Member of the Committee.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. James Corry be one other Member of the Committee."

MR. PARNELL

said, they had now been over three hours discussing this question, and it was clear that it could not be finished that night. He therefore moved that the further consideration of the Committee be adjourned until Thursday.

MAJOR O'GORMAN

seconded the Motion.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Parnell.)

MR. BRUEN

begged the hon. Member not to persevere with the Motion for Adjournment. While hon. Members were talking the Cattle Plague was spreading.

MR. BUTT

also hoped the hon. Member for Meath would withdraw his Motion. He should not vote for an Adjournment, nor should he vote against the name of any other Member, believing that such a course would tend to prevent the accomplishment of the object he had in view.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question, "That Mr. James Corry be one other Member of the Committee," put, and agreed to.

Mr. PEASE, Sir GEORGE JENKINSON, Mr. CHAMBERLAIN, Sir RAINALD KNIGHTLEY, Mr. MURPHY, Mr. ELLIOT, Mr. MUNDELLA, Mr. CAMERON of Lochiel, Mr. ARTHUR PEEL, Mr. RITCHIE, Mr. JOHN HOLMS, Mr. TORR, Mr. ANDERSON, Major ALLEN, Mr. NORWOOD, and Mr. ASSHETON, nominated other Members of the Committee.

MR. BUTT

moved, "That the name of Mr. Biggar be added to the Committee."

Motion made, and Question put, "That Mr. Biggar be one other Member of the Committee."

The House divided:—Ayes 90; Noes 113: Majority 23.—(Div. List, No. 105.)

MR. SULLIVAN

moved the Adjournment of the House, on the ground that some heat had been thrown into the proceedings of the past hour, and the Members of the Government had been divided in their support of the Amendment; and therefore he thought some time should be given to the Government to consider what names they would adopt.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Sullivan.)

MR. SPEAKER

said, the hon. and learned Member for Limerick had a Notice on the Paper to move the addition of two other names.

MR. BUTT

declined to make any further Motion on the subject.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

thought there was no necessity for the Adjournment. The question on which the House divided was a question for the House, and not for the Government; and as the House had decided the question, he was of opinion that the subject might be there allowed to drop, and the remaining Members of the Committee appointed.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

suggested that the Motion for the Adjournment of the House might be amended and altered to the adjournment of the Debate. He intimated that on the next name he would move to substitute a Scotch Member.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he had voted in the minority, and was sorry for the decision which the House had just arrived at. He hoped there would be an Adjournment of the Debate.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 35; Noes 156: Majority 121, — (Division List, No. 106.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. French be one other Member of the Committee."

MR. M'CARTHY DOWNING

asked, having seen the Chief Secretary for Ireland go into the Lobby against his hon. Friend (Mr. Biggar), what Ireland had to expect? He should divide the House on the questions of the Adjournment of the House and the Debate.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

said, that this was not a Government division, and he felt it his duty to exercise his individual judgment upon the matter before them. Surely they had the liberty of deciding who, in their judgment, was the fittest Member to serve on this Committee, and he had considered the qualifications of the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. A. Moore) to be preferable to those of the hon. Member (Mr. Biggar).

MR. CALLAN

moved the Adjournment of the Debate.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Callan.)

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the Government wished to add three Irish Members to the Committee.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 17; Noes 127: Majority 110—(Div. List, No. 107.)

Question again proposed, "That Mr. French be one other Member of the Committee."

Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. James Barclay.)

The House divided:—Ayes 18; Noes 96: Majority 78.—(Div. List, No. 108.)

Question, "That Mr. French be one other Member of the Committee," put, and agreed to.

Mr. King-Harman

nominated one other Member of the Committee.

Further Proceeding on Nomination of the Committee adjourned till Thursday.

House adjourned at Three o'clock.