MR. MACARTNEYcalled the attention of the House to the excessive number of workhouses in Ireland as compared to the number of Paupers requiring relief; and moved—
That a Select Committee be appointed to take Evidence and Report as to whether any Amalgamation of Poor Law Unions in Ireland is desirable; and, if so, in what manner and to what extent such amalgamation should be carried into effect.The hon. Member stated that his object was to show that practically there was a great deal more workhouse room in Ireland than required; indeed, he might state that it was about six and a-half times too much, and consequently he thought it might be considerably reduced.
§ MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY,in seconding the Motion, said, that the question was one of considerable difficulty. The local circumstances of each county would have to be considered, and the hon. Member had exercised a wise discretion in asking for a Select Committee to inquire into the whole question. They would require to act with caution, and it was high time the inquiry should be made. He suggested that enlarged powers might be given to the Local Government Board, so that there should be a Common Fund for each county, so that the overtaxed portions might be relieved. A very close and watchful inquiry would be necessary; for in every case where there was an attempt to displace existing institutions, we would have vested interests anxious to retain their situations. The proposed amalgamation was not without dangers in certain quarters; but these might be overcome by strengthening the Local Government Board. Much had been said about the undue powers of the Local Government Board; but if that Board were given additional powers, resulting in additional economy, he believed the people of Ireland would be satisfied. If in each county a common fund were created, and if that were brought to the aid of the portions of the community overtaxed, amalgamation might not only take place where possible and advisable, but we might do a great deal to 1525 solve the question as to Poor Law relief arising in Ireland. He was sure an inquiry was called for.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Select Committee be appointed to take Evidence and Report as to whether any Amalgamation of Poor Law Unions in Ireland is desirable; and, if so, in what manner and to what extent such amalgamation should be carried into effect."—(Mr. Macartney.)
§ MR. BRUENdid not oppose the Motion, but hoped that care would be taken not to neglect the interests of the sick poor, who could not be conveyed over long distances without great increase to out-door relief.
§ CAPTAIN NOLANthought a case had been made out for inquiry.
§ MR. KING-HARMAN,in supporting the Motion, said, experience went to show that it was not the Unions far distant from each other that were unfavourable to amalgamation, but those near to each other.
§ SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACHsaid, that those who had had great experience in Poor Law Administration in Ireland had not hitherto deemed it advisable to take any active steps in the direction which appeared to be desired by the House. The idea of amalgamation had been taken up by certain Unions, in the belief that it would effect a saving to them of so many pence in the pound, and by others in the hope of reducing the establishment charges. Of course, where there were few paupers in a workhouse the establishment charges were greater per head than when the workhouse was full; but it must be remembered that the mere fact that there were a great number of vacancies in a workhouse did not necessarily increase the cost of the establishment properly so called; and the mere cost of maintaining unnecessarily extensive buildings was a very little additional expense. It was well known that the area of the Unions in Ireland was much greater than that of the English Unions, none being smaller in Ireland than 50,000 acres. He believed that for this reason the amalgamation of Irish Unions, save in one or two instances, would cause great inconvenience to the Guardians, as well as to the sick and other persons requiring relief; or else great laxity in its administration. The amalgamation of 1526 workhouses was a different thing, and perhaps some system. might be adopted like that adopted in London, it being understood that great care must be taken not to increase out-door relief. The law regulating the grant of out-door relief was more strict in Ireland than in England; but, in spite of this, out-door relief was dangerously growing, and ho hoped nothing would be done to increase that growth, or to diminish the strictness with which the Poor Law system was administered by the Guardians in Ireland. He did not intend to object to an inquiry into this subject. He questioned very much whether it had not better be conducted by a local Commission, and doubted whether any greater result would arise from the Select Committee than a recommendation that a Commission should be appointed to investigate this matter locally. If the hon. Gentleman would not press his Motion to-night, he would make careful inquiry himself into this subject, and would ascertain whether it was not one which had better be entrusted to a local Commission. He would undertake that this should be investigated, and if it was not found desirable, he would then be prepared to agree to the appointment of the Committee which the hon. Member desired.