HC Deb 28 June 1877 vol 235 cc470-7

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a further sum, notexeeeding £1,327,910, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments, to the 31st day of March 1878: viz.—

CIVIL SERVICES.
CLASS I.
£
Metropolitan Police Courts 900
CLASS II.
Ireland:—
Chief Secretary's Office 2,200
Boundary Survey 60
Charitable Donations and Bequests Office 200
Local Government Board 11,000
Public Record Office 500
Public Works Office 2,500
Register Office, General 1,500
General Survey and Valuation 1,800
CLASS III.
England:—
Law Charges 5,000
Criminal Prosecutions 15,000
Chancery Division, High Court of Justice 15,000
Queen's Bench, &c. Divisions, High Court of Justice 5,000
Probate and Divorce Registries, High Court of Justice 8,000
Admiralty Registry, High Court of Justice 1,200
Wreck Commissioner's Office 1,000
Bankruptcy Court, London 4,500
County Courts 30,000
Land Registry Office 500
£
Police Courts, London and Sheerness 1,200
Metropolitan Police 70,000
Convict Establishments in England and the Colonies 30,000
County Prisons, Great Britain 8,000
Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum 2,500
Scotland:—
Lord Advocate, and Criminal Proceedings 6,000
Courts of Law and Justice 5,000
Register House Departments 3,500
Prisons and Judicial Statistics 2,000
Ireland:—
Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions 7,500
Court of Chancery 3,500
Common Law Courts 2,500
Court of Bankruptcy and Insolvency 1,000
Landed Estates Court 1,000
Probate Court 1,000
Admiralty Court Registry 200
Registry of Deeds 2,000
Registry of Judgments 250
Dublin Metropolitan Police 5,000
Constabulary 25,000
Government Prisons, &c. 3,500
Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum 600
Miscellaneous Legal Charges 6,000
CLASS IV.
England:—
Public Education 150,000
Science and Art Department 25,000
British Museum 9,000
National Gallery 600
National Portrait Gallery 200
Learned Societies 1,200
University of London 900
Deep Sea Exploring Expedition 300
Paris International Exhibition 1,200
Scotland:—
Public Education 75,000
Board of Education 250
Universities, &c. 1,500
National Gallery 200
Ireland:—
Public Education 50,000
National Gallery 200
Queen's University 400
Queen's Colleges 1,000
CLASS V.
Diplomatic Services 10,000
Consular Services 20,000
Colonies, Grants in Aid 6,000
Orange River Territory and St. Helena 250
Suppression of the Slave Trade 600
Tonnage Bounties, &c. 1,500
Emigration 250
Suez Canal (British Directors) 150
CLASS VI.
Superannuation and Retired Allowances 85,000
Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, &c. 5,000
Relief of Distressed British Seamen Abroad £2,500
Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland 2,000
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Great Britain 500
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Ireland 500
Commutation of Annuities 600
CLASS VII.
Temporary Commissions 2,000
Miscellaneous Expenses 1,000
Total for Civil Services £747,910
REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
Customs 80,000
Inland Revenue 150,000
Post Office 200,000
Post Office Packet Service 50,000
Post Office Telegraphs 100,000
Total for Revenue Departments 580,000
Grand Total £1,327,910"
MR. BUTT

moved the reduction of the Vote by £316,750, the amount included on account of Class 4. The hon. and learned Member said, he did not wish to persevere with his opposition then, if he had the assurance that there would be an opportunity of discussing the Irish Education Estimates. At the same time, he reminded them of a Motion he had brought forward early in the Session, on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed that to defer Estimates to a late period of the Session was, in fact, to deprive Parliament of the proper control over the Estimates. To vote the Estimates and to guard the public purse was the first and highest duty of the House. But so much of their time had been taken up in patching up statutes, that the House had lost all control over the Government expenditure. When he contrasted the great promises of late Sessions with the little work done, he could not help thinking that they ought to have more time to discuss the Estimates.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a further sum, not exceeding £1,011,160, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments, to the 31st day of March 1878."—(Mr. Mutt.)

THE O'CONOR DON

said, they might without difficulty grant a Vote on Account if the Government would promise that the Estimates should he brought on when they could he fully discussed. They were entitled to ask the Government to fix a day if they made this grant on account. It was true that there had been 32 Amendments on going into Committee of Supply, but that was because the Government had put down a Vote on Account of the Civil Service Estimates; and therefore every Member was obliged to put his Notice down, as he did not know what might take place. He thought it would be very convenient if the Chancellor of the Exchequer could state what particular Vote would be proposed at particular times.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,

while admitting that nothing could be more reasonable than that the hon. and learned Member for Limerick and the hon. Member for Roscommon should like to have a day fixed for the Votes in which they were interested, said, it was obvious that the Government could not promise a particular day for bringing on those Votes. If he had been asked a question of that kind last week, he should have said that the Army Estimates would be taken on Monday, and the Education Estimates on the following Monday. But the discussion before going into Committee on the Army Estimates prevented that course being adopted. What he proposed was, to take Supply every Monday, and next week, not only Monday, but Thursday also. He should like to devote, as well, a Morning Sitting to Supply; but he had promised that Tuesday or Friday morning next should be placed at the disposal of the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. R. Smyth) for the Irish Sunday Closing Bill. At the conclusion of the Army Estimates he proposed to proceed with Class 4, including the English and Scotch Education Votes, but did not think there would be time to discuss the Irish Education Vote the same evening. He wished to proceed with Supply as quickly as possible.

MR. GOLDSMID

said, he understood that up to the present time only about 17 hours had this Session been devoted to the Civil Service Estimates in Committee of Supply. He wished to know whether the Secretary to the Treasury would promise that in future the House would be furnished with Returns as to the time devoted to the different classes of Supply each Session?

MR. BUTT

said, he would be quite satisfied with an assurance that the earliest possible day after the Army Votes would be given for a discussion of the Irish Education Vote and Estimates.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he would give this assurance.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give a day for the Education Vote for Ireland. The Irish Members had to go away long distances, and it would be a great convenience for them to know the particular day.

THE O'CONOR DON

trusted that an early day would be named for the discussion of the Irish University Education Bill. Should the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to give a day, at some reasonable interval, for its discussion, he would not bring on the Motion of which he had given Notice on going Committee of Supply.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

asserted that the Government was responsible for the delay in getting into Committee of Supply to-night. The whole difficulty was due to the fact that the Government was in conflict with the intelligence of the House. The Government had a mechanical majority, but they made a mistake in attempting to force legislation which was not wanted—Judicature Bills and the like. It was simply impossible that the House could continue to be treated in this manner, and for the purpose of dividing the House on the question, he should move the omission of Class I. of the Estimates. The hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Captain Nolan) had written to the Chief Secretary for Ireland on the subject, but had received no satisfactory reply.

MR. BUTT

understood the Government were pledged to bring on the Estimates at the earliest opportunity. The question of Irish Education rose out of that, and it would be convenient to the Irish Members to know when an opportunity for discussing the Education Estimates would be afforded.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

could not give any promise as to the Irish Education Vote, though he hoped it might come forward this Session. As to the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Galway, it was difficult to pledge the Government to any particular day, because it was impossible to say how long the English Votes might take; but he would make every effort to consult the convenience of the Irish Members, and would give them as long notice as was possible.

MR. BUTT

said, he was quite satisfied with the assurance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

hoped that a day would be named for the consideration of the Bill of the hon. and learned Member for Limerick, which would ensure its discussion in a full House.

MR. PARNELL

thought this was a good opportunity of asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what Bills it was the intention of the Government to proceed with?

THE CHAIRMAN

said, the answer to the Question would be out of Order.

MR. PARNELL

said, that if Supply had to wait for these Bills, Supply would be obtained about Christmas. He was anxious to get a definite date as to when the Education Bill would come on?

CAPTAIN NOLAN

asked, if it was really the intention of the Government to pass the Irish Prisons Bill this Session?—so that Irish Members might be in a position to tell their constituents if they would have to pay their share to the English prison expenses, and support their own prisons as well.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

said, whether the Prisons Bill passed or not would depend upon the Irish Members. He was anxious in this matter to put the two countries on an equality.

MAJOR O'GORMAN

What, Sir, do I hear? The right hon. Gentleman says in the matter of prisons he wishes Ireland and England to be on an equality. Is that what he says? He says that it is only with regard to the Prisons Bill that the Irish people should be placed on an equality with England. Why did not he say so last Tuesday week, when it was desired that the people of Ireland should be placed on an equality with the people of England with regard to the franchise? It appears to me, Sir, it is only with respect to punishment that we are to be equalized. ["Order!"] What! am I not speaking the truth?

THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. and gallant Member is out of Order.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

thought it inconvenient to introduce discussion of these Bills on a Vote in Supply. He assured the House that the Government was anxious to get on with the Business as speedily as possible, and he appealed to hon. Members to support the Government in proceeding with the Business.

MR. DILLWYN

commented on the conduct of the Government in running the important Business of the Session to the end of it.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

denied that the Government were open to such a remark. If they proposed to go on with Bills, they were told they should push forward Supply. If they endeavoured to go on with Supply, they were told they should push forward the Bills. How the time had been occupied, the House was aware.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

asked why there was no money asked for on account of county prisons and reformatories, while there was a Vote on Account for the Government prisons? The Chief Secretary had merely eluded the question. He moved to report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Captain Nolan.)

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

explained that whether the Irish Prisons Bill passed or not, England and Ireland would be on the same footing as regarded the expenses of prisons until April, 1877. The reason why there was no change in the Vote on Account, as alluded to, was because it happened that none of the expenses of which the English counties were to be relieved by the English Prisons Act came within the current year.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

said, that he and those with him were willing to offer no opposition to the Irish Prisons Bill, provided that Irish prisons were placed, exactly on the same footing as English prisons, and that the same Amendments were incorporated into the Irish, as had been introduced into the English Bill.

MAJOR O'GORMAN

Upon the same footing! It is a pity that the right hon. Gentleman did not mate this statement a few days ago on the Franchise Bill. It appears that the Irish people are to be put on the same footing, as regards prisons and punishments, but not as regards the franchise. ["Order, order!"]

THE CHAIRMAN

said, it was out of Order to refer to previous debates.

MR. PARNELL

said, he should like to ask whether, in the event of the Irish and Scotch Prison Bills not being passed, the Government would bring in a Bill next year for the purpose of relieving the Irish and Scotch ratepayers of the year's charge thrown on them for the maintenance of the Irish and Scotch prisons, in consequence of the failure to pass these Bills this Session?

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow;

Committee to sit again To-morrow.

House adjourned at half after One o'clock.